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This is key - Bran, ask your players (the whole group) if this is what they felt about the situation, rather than actually having a problem with the rules. Any rule discussion is moot if they prefer softcore over hardcore play. Stay open minded - if that's what they want, give it to them.By RAW, you're absolutely correct. But it was kind of a dick move though. Just because the rules allow a tactic doesn't mandate that you have to use it. There are tons of legal ways to kill PC's off without giving them a chance to effectively strike back. But you really should hesitate before using them. Most players can tolerate a PC death if they at least had the opportunity to go down fighting.
do you think RAW rules were done wrong?
In PFS would you consider this a 'dick gm' move?
How many possible chances should the PCs be given? Let's count them.
5 PCs x 3 rounds = 15 : The # of chances the other PCs had to wake up the downed PC.
3 NPCs controlled by PCs x 3 rounds = 9 : The # of chances the other PCs NPCs had to wake up the downed PC.
3 : The number of Attacks of Opportunity given to the PCs when the BBEG grappled the Sleeping PC.
3 : THe number of full attack actions the PCs had to down the BBEG after he grappled the downed PC.
3 : The number of Attacks of Opportunity given tot he PCs when the BBEG stepped off the ledge.
1 : The number of chances to break free by the NPC when the BBEG stepped off the ledge.
Hmm, let's total those up : 15 + 9 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 1 = 34.
34 Chances to do something to prevent this. How many chances do you want the PCs to have to stop something from happening? How many before it's the PCs being MORONS and not the GM being a dick?
Oh, and the PCs were warned ahead of time because they freaking saw a pile of rubble from people turned to stone and tossed off the ledge in question before they climbed up.
he had 30 hit points because he was damaged before and during the encounter...did not receive healing fell from 160 feet.....
This is a key point. Not healing your front liner before a big fight is a glaring oversight in party tactics and/or resource management. Especially if they knew (or strongly suspected) the "boss" was at the top of the tower. The party needs to share some of the blame for this result really. Even if the grapple rules were not applied 100% correctly, the result would probably not be much different. Learn and move on, if possible. If the other two can not move past that, no problem, you already have more players than the adventure is designed for.
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By RAW, you're absolutely correct. But it was kind of a dick move though. Just because the rules allow a tactic doesn't mandate that you have to use it. There are tons of legal ways to kill PC's off without giving them a chance to effectively strike back. But you really should hesitate before using them. Most players can tolerate a PC death if they at least had the opportunity to go down fighting.
do you think RAW rules were done wrong?
Wow. Tabletop gaming sure has changed. Apparently GMs are supposed to be all touchy-feely now. You really argue that the PCs should always have a fair fight with the BBEG? Seriously?
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Bran,
Think of this as an opportunity. When I ran this encounter, the BBEG escaped - and became a recurring villian that the party wasn't able to kill until 14th level! They had numerous encounters where this BBEG sicced dragons on them, kidnapped NPCs, provided fire support to minions and telported away, turned cohorts against them, etc.
The players enjoyed it. The set ambushes of their own. The cleric and wizard started carrying specific spell outlays to deal with the BBEG. One PC maxed perception to avoid future ambushes!
Opportunities abound!
Bran,
Think of this as an opportunity. When I ran this encounter, the BBEG escaped - and became a recurring villian that the party wasn't able to kill until 14th level! They had numerous encounters where this BBEG sicced dragons on them, kidnapped NPCs, provided fire support to minions and telported away, turned cohorts against them, etc.
The players enjoyed it. The set ambushes of their own. The cleric and wizard started carrying specific spell outlays to deal with the BBEG. One PC maxed perception to avoid future ambushes!
Opportunities abound!
Yes! This!
Do players really have fun without setbacks or adversity? I guess everybody gets their kicks somehow.
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I would also add, DMs don't always make good players, at least the ones that DM heavily. We tend to focus more on the fighting and mechanics than the roleplaying. We find it harder to give the reigns of control over to someone else, and especially find it hard to let rules questions slide when we know something is not correct. (And sometimes, you have to do exactly that... for faster play, better fun or just so the other DM can learn the ins and outs of how things work though later discussion). In short, DMs have a harder time relaxing and enjoying the game from the other side of the screen. That's not to say there aren't DMs that can, but in my experience they are a minority, one that even I wouldn't put myself in at this point.
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Falling. The distance fallen from a point of no movement is 1/2 x rate of acceleration x square of the time fallen. The rate of acceleration in earth vicinity is 32.2 feet per second per second, and that should apply to Golarion, too. So, from a standing start, in six seconds, you can fall:
1/2 x 32.2 x 6 x 6 or 579.6 feet. This is the number that is often used as the 500 feet for falling in a round.
Terminal velocity for a human not balled up is about 180 feet per second. This gives a terminal speed of 1080 feet per round. You get to terminal velocity between five and six seconds of falling. (v = a x t = 32.2 x 6 is 193.2 feet per second after six seconds.)
You could fiddle with the numbers a bit to get more precise, but 500 feet on the first round, and 1000 feet on the rounds following is a good approximation to use.
I generally have a low tolerance for players trying to engage in precision timing and estimations to minimize their exposure to danger. And that includes gauging when you are within 60 feet of the ground when falling at a speed encroaching on 100 mph or so.
I disagree with you on that. People who skydive rutinely spend quite alot of time floating around before finally deploying their parashute.
I know that they all deploy it in good time but that is because a parashute isn't magic and you have to allow for time to deploy your reserve parashute and because a parashute takes time deploying. We are dealing with exact magic and the caster knows it. I would however generally speaking have most (if not all) my npcs trigger feather fall at 60 ft. from the ground.
Since you like real world figures instead of game rules, let's use correct ones, shall we?
1st second= 15ft, 2nd second= 65ft, 3rd second= 145ft, 4th second= 255ft, 5th second= 400ft, 6th second= 580ft
So at 3 seconds after going off the edge, he is 145ft down, since it was 160ft tower, this puts him at 15ft from the ground.
At this exact point in time, he would be traveling 95 ft/second, or more appropriately called 65 mph.
Given that 65 mph is the standard speed limit on many highways and interstates, and that this figure is based on what is considered a safe speed to make driving decisions and reactions, it is fair to say that someone traveling at 65 mph is perfectly capable of deploying an 'immediate' action at the appropriate time.
Especially given that he has, as described, deployed this tactic with success several other times.
(Figures and math note, I rounded a little, mostly to increments of 5, because we're all familiar with them)
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To say that the bad guy fell 500 feet before the next PC could act is pretty silly (in my humble opinion) because the NPC CAN'T move 500 ft in his turn and I believe the rules state if someone jumps, they have to be able to complete the jump before the end of movement or the jump starts on the next turn. So either the NPC ONLY fell his movement (putting him with range of MANY spells) or he should not have been able to go over the cliff until the next turn.
Is that a serious post?
It is your position that if a quickling, a human and a gelatinous cube stepped off a ledge together, the quickling would reach the ground first, wait for the human, then they'd both unpack their bedrolls to wait for the cube to sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly descend to join them?
By that logic, throwing a helpless PC off the ledge should cause no harm at all, since he'd hover in mid-air indefinitely, due to his movement rate of zero. He'd only be in danger of falling if and when he woke up.
Wile E. Coyote would never be able to drop an anvil on a Roadrunner, because an inanimate object has no movement rate. He'd have to jump up and down on top of it, till they both fell together.
You'd never be able to throw a dagger, or loose an arrow; they'd stop dead as soon as they left the thrower's hand or bow.
While that has a certain 'Hitchiker's Guide' spurious logic ("Flying is when one throws oneself at the ground, but miss"), it has no place outside comedy games, like 'Toon'.
To just flat say, no it wont work, no it wont work no it wont work, the GM is being just as childish as the player screaming at him at the conclusion of the game.
It's fine to say something doesn't work, when explicit rules exist, which spell out falling speed.
And when the player's demands are self-evidently stupid, or motivated by entitlement issues of "One rule for NPCs, a better rule for us".One of the PCs knew feather fall; the group will have presumably seen them use it, and therefore be fully aware of the falling rules, and how the spell works to change them.
Even if that PC has never cast it, the screamer is a GM, and should know those rules. And should know better how to conduct themselves.
This is key - Bran, ask your players (the whole group) if this is what they felt about the situation, rather than actually having a problem with the rules. Any rule discussion is moot if they prefer softcore over hardcore play. Stay open minded - if that's what they want, give it to them.By RAW, you're absolutely correct. But it was kind of a dick move though. Just because the rules allow a tactic doesn't mandate that you have to use it. There are tons of legal ways to kill PC's off without giving them a chance to effectively strike back. But you really should hesitate before using them. Most players can tolerate a PC death if they at least had the opportunity to go down fighting.
do you think RAW rules were done wrong?
yes yes yes
this was discussed and 4 of the players (not including or former gm) are fine with what happened and think it gives a challenge and threat to the storyline. they have told me that they are having a lot of fun and don't want me to "take a break" from game night. that "break" has been done before unfortunately to let people cool off after big verbal blow-ups. the group might decide to play the next chapter without this other player or we split the group and start new level one characters and a whole new module.........which as you know, sucks for players and gms
Bran,
Think of this as an opportunity. When I ran this encounter, the BBEG escaped - and became a recurring villian that the party wasn't able to kill until 14th level! They had numerous encounters where this BBEG sicced dragons on them, kidnapped NPCs, provided fire support to minions and telported away, turned cohorts against them, etc.
The players enjoyed it. The set ambushes of their own. The cleric and wizard started carrying specific spell outlays to deal with the BBEG. One PC maxed perception to avoid future ambushes!
Opportunities abound!
I would love to move past this with 1 less player on the gaming table and start brainstorming how this BBEG will continue in the story AP. This situation is still going on....but it seems like I/We are leaning towards asking this other angry and screaming player to stop playing with us.
I would also add, DMs don't always make good players, at least the ones that DM heavily. We tend to focus more on the fighting and mechanics than the roleplaying. We find it harder to give the reigns of control over to someone else, and especially find it hard to let rules questions slide when we know something is not correct. (And sometimes, you have to do exactly that... for faster play, better fun or just so the other DM can learn the ins and outs of how things work though later discussion). In short, DMs have a harder time relaxing and enjoying the game from the other side of the screen. That's not to say there aren't DMs that can, but in my experience they are a minority, one that even I wouldn't put myself in at this point.
very well said,
you are exactly rightit has been a problem every week for over a year and once again we all need to "take a break" to cool off. I really feel this has run it's course. We could keep going without the former dm or start a new level one adventure.
Hmmm. Math. I would say first round he is dragged to an empty square, he stays there due to inertia. However, he is helpless since he is actively falling far from the ledge. The next round - 6 seconds - 9.8 m/s^2 - in other words 9.8 m the first second, 2x9.8 m the 2nd second - etc.
if 9.8 m = x, then 1 x + 2 x + 3 x + 4 x + 5 x + 6 x = 21 x
21 x 9.8 m = 205.8 m = 675 feet
With the cliff being 150 feet tall, the character clearly reaches the bottom in the second round.
under advice post
"when a former gm sits down to play"
this has been a long time coming.....
He falls 500 ft per round... OK, The NPC already used his full round to Move to the PC, Attack (CMB) and continue the move to the ledge.
npc made no move action as he was on outside of building.....climb checks were made...pc who was dragged is ON ledge drag was made and pc failed by 18 large creature next to medium pc in combat
Heh, i am kind reverse was darkbridger said. I CAN DM. But have a hard time getting away from the player aspect, to the point, i always have a "mercenary" accompany the group that i build and control as an integral party member. The downside is they get used to my play style when playing and dont "ask" the npc for stuff they need/can't do on their own.
I also have a player constantly rules lawyering me when i do DM, lol. but i am of a mind, many would say is bad, that the DM makes the call. DM says it, must be true. BUT as a caveat. Must be true both sides of the fence and consistant throughout that entire storyline.
I agree to whomever posted earlier if an arguement goes over 5 minutes it needs to end, something is wrong. If the rule screws your character concept up, talk about what you can or cannot change. However, after reading this entire post i have come to the following conclusions.
1. You were wrong about the move. You were WAAAY too lenient :) Splat!
2. ExDM needs to get laid and say goosefrabba more often preferably in another group.
3. Dead guy attitude, AWESUMESAUCE!!!! I'd love to RP with THAT guy!
4. I do agree the party should have had one round to fire between featherfall and running away as the BBEG would be standing at the end of his movement below the cliff, so ranged weapons and spells, 1 turn then ful lretreat. That being said, it was covered with the ridiculous amount of AOO offered before cliff, so negligible.
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npc made no move action as he was on outside of building.....climb checks were made...pc who was dragged is ON ledge drag was made and pc failed by 18 large creature next to medium pc in combat
He falls 500 ft per round... OK, The NPC already used his full round to Move to the PC, Attack (CMB) and continue the move to the ledge.
Dude, seriously, you need to spoiler this s#%+.
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If the party member jumped off the cliff 0.1 seconds after the bbeg, the bbeg would be out of range after 1.6 seconds.
In this time, the bbeg would have fallen 46.26 feet and the party member would have fallen 41.01 feet.
46.26 - 41.01 = 5.15
5.15 > 5 feet reach
me thinks mapleswitch is Raymond from Rain man. Or just really really likes math. A lot. Like.. .a whole lot...
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You guys are missing my point. And my Jump rules that I threw out there was really just illustrate a point.
My issue is not with the combat, which once fully explained seems to be pretty straight up.
My issue is once the PC was pushed, and the Bag Guy jumped, the GM flat out said no to any options the PC wanted to pursue him.The helpless feeling the other pcs have is unfortunate, but that's just how it is. The former gm wanted to have 3 full round actions (Ranger) before they hit the ground...no He then wanted his animal companion to jump off ledge and somehow catch-up with the falling badguy and perform some weird Gandalf vs. Balrog falling fight....noMy question is simply why not?
He falls 500 ft per round... OK, The NPC already used his full round to Move to the PC, Attack (CMB) and continue the move to the ledge.
You guys keep throwing realism into this, and I get it, but in reality the same time the bad guy jumps, Everyone with reach is acting as well and SHOULD have the opportunity to act HEROIC and try to save their friend or continue the fight. I kinda like the whole visual of a PC doing some Gandalf vs Balrog falling fight..
If the GM had allowed the guy to jump on the bad guy or the bird a chance to save the PC what difference would it have made? Perhaps none, but perhaps it would have set up and epic night of gaming that you and your friends would have been talking about FOREVER.
What you seem to be missing is that the game has rules. Those rules should be applied fairly and evenly to everyone, not applied willy nilly because someone might throw a childish hissy fit.
The person jumping off the ledge having already made a standard and move action and therefore by your preference couldn't execute an immediate action is simply against the rules.
If the person had already used all their actions and then ended their turn and gotten bull rushed off, they could have done an immediate action after being bull rushed even if it wasn't there turn. So that argument is bogus.
YOu seem to be saying that the rules only apply when they are in favor of the PCs, and the rules should be ignored when the PCs are not winning or not getting what they want.
That is not how a game works. It has rules, you play by the rules.
Looks legit.
Hand the player a towel to cry into and the PC's a spatula to get him up.
Your mechanics are fine.
You probably need to work on your bedside manner a bit.
My approach is to talk trash when the PCs are winning, and act sympathetic and remorseful when I'm handing their asses to them.
Impartiality is what every player wants to see in a GM. If you can only convince them that you have no other choice if you're running a credible opposition, that helps a lot. But you need to sell it, which means part of you needs to believe it.
As for what to do now: keep running the game. Keep inviting those players back. Ask them if they want to go for a raise or if they want to seek out new characters. If they say no, ask them again next week. Be sympathetic to their frustration, but explain your position.
A lot of my players had a bad reaction to the first PCs death, but as the campaign pushes on it becomes just another note in the story. Treat the death reverently. Have a funeral. Have Mayor Grobaras award a medal posthumously.
Try not to look like you enjoyed killing the PC.
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Anyone else notice the irony in the OP's username?
This is awesome! It would be a badge of honor to die in such an amazing way!
My players said the same thing when I pointed them to this thread.
We love it when a character has a memorable death, it means we end up talking about that character, and that campaign long, long after the event.
Over twenty years passed now and my group still shudder at the mention of the "Grand Kobold Ballroom".
It was an empty room on level one of the Temple of Elemental Evil, so I filled it with one of my wacky moments.
On entering the room, a ballroom glitter ball is rotating in the ceiling, at the far end of the room are a band of kobolds. Sensing an easy win, the 5th level party charge in. The door slams shut, the lights dim and music flares.
Failed Will saves later (grin)
You drop anything in your hands, and dance with the nearest creator for one round!
Music fades. You may now pick up an item nearby and attack any kobolds with it (lol) - hope you are beside something your are proficient with... rolls... lols,
After that round of combat, the music swells - by this time we get characters and kobolds dancing around the room with each other (yes, they failed again >.< - I love their dice some days).
rinse, repeat, 2 rounds later, still half teh kobolds left, and the priest goes down - not good.
rinse repeat
Eventually the last kobold dies, in the same round that the fighter goes down due to lack of healing (where did that priest go?), setting a new slowest record at the table for the number of rounds it takes to kill 7 kobolds.
Enjoy.
If you don't believe me or what is written in the rules, as another summary which lays this out nicely, look at the grapple flowcharts on d20pfsrd. The move grapple action is only available to the grappler who is controlling, as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple on subsequent rounds.From a thematic perspective, I agree with Adamantine Dragon as well. Regardless, the RAW mean the minimum time taken to execute...
This is the correct answer. The proper sequence should have been:
Surprise round: BBEG attempts to grapple sleeping PC as a standard action. PC gets Perception check to wake up (with -10 for sleeping). If awakened, the PC gets an attack of opportunity (unless BBEG has improved grapple).
Roll for initiative/Other PCs get perception check to hear struggle (if PC was awakened and attacked or made a noise).
Round 1: PC gets to attempt to break grapple on his turn, BBEG must maintain grapple on his turn. If grapple is maintained, BBEG moves him off the cliff edge to fall and releases grapple as a free action and casts Feather Fall as an immediate action.
That's the proper process by RAW. If Drag was used, it's a different process. Although, I don't believe you can drag a creature into a dangerous square.
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Looks legit.
Hand the player a towel to cry into and the PC's a spatula to get him up.
The one doing all the yelling isn't the one who died. The dead one said something along the lines of 'okay, now somebody raise me so we can hunt her down!'
:) extra points, that man.
Though I would have allowed the falling PC to wake up in midair and attempt a grapple check while the NPC cast Featherfall, just because it seems cooler.
On a related note about 10 minutes into a mid level campaign, I had a player try and jump a narrow waterfall tied to a rope. He failed and the waterfall had such force I said to make a strength check for the rope to see if it breaks, it snapped and he fell 500 feet to rocks and water below.
He didn't get any actions on the way down because you only get one every 600 feet or so, but another player had feather fall memorized and luckily saved him after about 3 minutes of dumbfounded looks. We all had a laugh about it, but he was being careless.
Glad the dead pc was good with it. Good roleplayers are sometimes hard to find.
Anyone else notice the irony in the OP's username?I have been pretty active in this thread and I never noticed. Thank you for pointing it out and make me squirt coke all over my screen. (note the sarcasm :P)
Heh, I noticed it and wondered if he'd taken that username to post his OP, but I see now he's been a member for longer than that. So, yeah, ironic.
Just one point of order here. Pathfinder is not played on Earth. So even if every physical law in our universe applied, we have no idea what the value of "g" is for whatever planet the players are on, assuming the action is even ON a planet.
Since the laws of physics are clearly different in the Pathfinder universe, we have no way of knowing what the value of "G" is either (G = Universal gravitational constant). So we don't even know if our math APPLIES to a PF universe.
Having said all that, just because someone says "math" and posts some numbers, that doesn't necessarily mean the math is right.
So with all of that, the RAW way (and I think this is the rules forum) to figure out falling is to use the RAW, not "G" and Newton's Laws (or even Einstein's laws) of gravitation. Everything else is, quite literally, house ruling.
Anyone else notice the irony in the OP's username?
I was wondering if anybody would point it out and almost asked if this account was made specifically to ask this question.
As written in the AD&D 1st edition rule book by good old Gary Gygax himself.
Gary Gygax writing about being a GM is like Bill Gates explaining how he invented the mouse.
Nobody ever gives Dave Arneson proper credit...
What you seem to be missing is that the game has rules. Those rules should be applied fairly and evenly to everyone, not applied willy nilly because someone might throw a childish hissy fit.
Wrong... the game has guidelines.. Overall the game is a story telling game and whenever the story has a chance to be interesting by reason of PC actions they should be allows a chance.
As written in the AD&D 1st edition rule book by good old Gary Gygax himself.
What is here is, hopefully, presented in as logical a sequence as possible, clearly, understandably, and with as few ambiguities as could be managed. Many readers will want more material. There is a wealth of commercial and fan material available for fulfilling such needs.Similarly, even the most important material herein can be altered and
bent to suit the needs of individual campaigns. Where possible, true guidelines have been laid down to provide the barest of frameworks for those areas of the campaign which should be the most unusual and unique.
And the book later goes on to say:
This game is unlike chess in that the rules are not cut and dried. In many
places they are guidelines and suggested methods only. This is part of the
attraction of ADVANCED DUNGEONS 8 DRAGONS, and it is integral to the
game.It does go on to say the final say on any rule lays in the hands of the DM, and I fully agree with that. However The 'rules' are simple a framework to tell a story. Usually the good stories are about Heroes doing pretty unbelievable stuff, and my personal experience shows that when given a chance to perform heroic deeds, game nights can become the stuff of legends.
What do you really remember about a games played 20 years ago? The stuff you could not do because some rule said it wasn't possible, or that really cool move the GM allowed you to do, but ONLY if you rolled a 20.. and you pulled it off... Stuff of Legends...
While all of that may have been particularly and especially true in 1st edition, it is far less the case in 3.5 and Pathfinder. The game has progressed from rules light (or guideline light if you prefer) to rules heavy. Any DM is free to change anything they want, at any time they want. But no player anywhere likes to have the rule (guideline) changes in use explained to him right before his character dies.
To be clear, the DM in this situation didn't do that. A former-DM reacted badly to his rules interpretation, which IS bad. Having a player at the table (or here) after the fact, point out that the grapple rules were kind of incorrect doesn't amount to anyone telling anyone else how to play. Either the DM applies the rules as written, or adopts his changes as-is. He is under no more obligation to do that than he is to grant the players a chance to save the dieing player or kill the falling opponent.
Learning where to break/bend the rules (or treat them as guidelines) in the name of fun is an art, not a science. It also requires players that are on board with that approach, which in this case is certainly not true.
The person being asleep next to a ledge because they got owned by Deep Slumber is a pretty important detail.
I'd probably have the maneuver to chuck the PC off the tower wake them up, but otherwise I'd say this was run right. It's the party's own fault they didn't bother to wake up the sleeping guy.
It sounds like your one player is going to be unhappy no matter what, and you'll need to figure out if you want to continue gaming with that person.
that's where we stand.....civil war between former and current gms
I hate this !@#$.......evrybody is loving the game except this one player. The funny thing is he said he would help me anyway I needed to make the game run smoothly, but he has been a constant hinderance stretching rule fights into long-winded 30 minute shoutfests
You know there is only one answer, and dragging it out won't solve anything. Either you surrender the supremacy to the former GM (at which point you might as well quit GM'ing), or you kick him out of the group.
The players who are crying about the death of the character are being completely unreasonable. From reading the OP's posts in this thread, it seems that a pretty common thing for them.
My advice is to let go of them and move on with the remaining players.
I think this was handled properly especially for those of you who have played this particular AP.
It's a deadly encounter that has hundreds of posts elsewhere on this site due to the penchant of the BBEG delivering many dead pc's.
My only question would be if you were running the original RoTRL or the Anniversary edition?