Barring that everyone gets a round to act prior to the two of them going off the cliff.
Not necessarily, it depends on the initiative order. If the BBEG has the high initiative, then they go off the cliff before anyone can react (other than AoO's).
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It sounds to me like one of them should have woken up their ally instead of taking their free shot at the boss?
That's what I thought. It does sound as though they had poor tactics and then blamed the GM when the result of those poor tactics was the death of a party member.
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I would suggest that you as a DM re-call the group to discuss this. Point out the interpretation of the rules and ask them, where they see things as being different? I think you were being generous in the way you handled it and also the BBG could have just done a melee coup de grace.
The only change I can foresee is with the events prior to the attack and any potential measures the pcs may have put in place to protect themselves whilst resting.
the pc who died tried to bring some reason into the room by saying "guys, she could of just coup de grace me!!!!" "are you guys upset I died, or are you upset you don't get to shoot us on the way down to the ground? I failed my cmd roll...i'm dragged as I awake 5ft off a 160 ft tower. I rolled damage to see if I survived fall...I didn't. Just resurrect me so we can hunt down this @$@#@$ !!!! "
do I need to bring a time machine in so the party can wake or drag their friend away from danger?
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This is going to sound critical and I don't mean it to be. I only mean this to be an example of my own personal mindset in running campaigns in RPGs. While some people on these boards scoff at experience, I will still point out that I've been running campaigns for 35 years and my players have universally expressed a positive experience in the games I GM.
OK, here is how I view any sort of rules challenge in the game. If I am arguing rules with my players for any more than five minutes, I've done something wrong and am DOING something wrong. There is no "win" in a rules argument, and rules arguments are not "fun" for anyone.
I appreciate all the attention being given to your mechanical application of the rules, but to me that is totally pointless. You would not be having this argument about rules if the game had not taken a turn the players did not like.
I view being a GM to be something similar to facilitating an important meeting. My job is not just to provide a stage for the players to act on (although that's a MAJOR part of my job), my job is also to monitor the group's body language, read between the lines of their comments, monitor the overall attitude and to deliberately direct the game in such a way that the experience is as much fun as possible for the group.
That sometimes means I will deliberately mis-apply rules when I believe that will provide a superior gaming experience for my players.
That does not mean that I don't kill PCs or provide challenges that make my players sweat, making them sweat is part of how to manage the action so that the players take a fun and exciting ride. But if I do kill a PC, that is something I take very seriously and I do everything I can to make sure the encounter not only follows the rules, but that it follows my own rule, which is that no PC should die without an opportunity for heroism, and if that means that I have to nudge a player or two with a hint (or an outright suggestion) I will do so.
In the case of this situation I would probably have said "Hey, your fighter is asleep on the edge of a cliff, that might be something you want to deal with, because it would be awful easy to drag him off the cliff." And I would also have probably given the falling PC more chances to save themselves, including a potential grapple attempt while falling so that the feather fall would have either saved them both, or failed them both.
Right now you are in a situation where you may well win the battle (the rules question) but lose the war (the game itself). So I always ask myself, "How do I win the war?"
do I need to bring a time machine in so the party can wake or drag their friend away from danger?
Do that.
Then have dead NPCs come back and restructure encounters in a similar fashion, just to see what the players' reaction is....
Yeah, a bit passive aggressive maybe. Fun though.
Not necessarily, it depends on the initiative order. If the BBEG has the high initiative, then they go off the cliff before anyone can react (other than AoO's).Barring that everyone gets a round to act prior to the two of them going off the cliff.
she was first to act and took 3 attacks of opp while she performed the 5ft drag....
Not necessarily, it depends on the initiative order. If the BBEG has the high initiative, then they go off the cliff before anyone can react (other than AoO's).Barring that everyone gets a round to act prior to the two of them going off the cliff.
Even if he's at the top of the order they'd get a chance to act since it takes him two rounds to do this. It might be during round 1 or round 2 but it will be between his initiating the grapple and the second action to roll off the cliff.
The person being asleep next to a ledge because they got owned by Deep Slumber is a pretty important detail.
I'd probably have the maneuver to chuck the PC off the tower wake them up, but otherwise I'd say this was run right. It's the party's own fault they didn't bother to wake up the sleeping guy.
It sounds like your one player is going to be unhappy no matter what, and you'll need to figure out if you want to continue gaming with that person.
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In the case of this situation I would probably have said...
just talked to 3 of the pcs(1 is deceased pc). they all feel that the tactics, rules, and actions on both sides were fair...also hardcore. They regret not doing more for the sleeping fighter. "we just thought he would wake up after the duration of the spell or if we woke him since we couldn't get an attack off. we probally should of made the in melee sleeping fighter our first priority.
the deceased laughed and said he can't wait to meet this villain again.
still waiting on the other two angry pcs...doesn't look good
The person being asleep next to a ledge because they got owned by Deep Slumber is a pretty important detail.
I'd probably have the maneuver to chuck the PC off the tower wake them up, but otherwise I'd say this was run right. It's the party's own fault they didn't bother to wake up the sleeping guy.
It sounds like your one player is going to be unhappy no matter what, and you'll need to figure out if you want to continue gaming with that person.
that's where we stand.....civil war between former and current gms
I hate this !@#$.......evrybody is loving the game except this one player. The funny thing is he said he would help me anyway I needed to make the game run smoothly, but he has been a constant hinderance stretching rule fights into long-winded 30 minute shoutfests
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Stuff
This is pretty dang hard to argue with TBH.
"Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not."
Wouldn't slapping someone over your shoulder have woken him?
Couldn't the fighter have held on to the BBEG? He'd be awake for the fall, and from the grapple in general. Would he be clutching on to the only thing in reach? In this case, the BBEG??
I disagree that he would necessarily wake from a grapple. He hasn't been damaged or slapped around the face (the two ways of being woken in RAW), and picking up a sleeping person would not necessarily wake them.
Now I'll certain agree that an enemy isn't going to be gentle in picking him up, but that's a GM call rather than a ruling. Maybe a new Save or something to be generous.
Couldn't the fighter have held on to the BBEG? He'd be awake for the fall, and from the grapple in general. Would he be clutching on to the only thing in reach? In this case, the BBEG??
I guess that could of been another check if the pc asked me if he could try it. he didn't say much after he failed his second check and knew he was pulled off...
I disagree that he would necessarily wake from a grapple. He hasn't been damaged or slapped around the face (the two ways of being woken in RAW), and picking up a sleeping person would not necessarily wake them.
one of the other pcs just joked that the cleric should of SLAPPED the sleeping fighter while delivering a much needed cure spell.
two desired effects in one round!!!!split your standard action
lol, this situation unfortuely is only gonna get wackier
Couldn't the fighter have held on to the BBEG? He'd be awake for the fall, and from the grapple in general. Would he be clutching on to the only thing in reach? In this case, the BBEG??
Breaking a grapple is a free action for the person currently controlling the grapple. If they chose to do so both parties lose the grappled condition. If the fighter wanted to re-initiate the grapple he'd have to wait until his next action to do so (unfortunately post impact in this case).
Would have been nice if someone in the party had Feather Fall memorized :(
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By RAW, you're absolutely correct. But it was kind of a dick move though.
yeah, pcs warned about it.... it's pretty hardcore but no pc was singled out. tactics stated that pc closest to edge was going to be bullrushed or dragged. The BBEG could have pulled off maneuver and stayed there smiling and continue fighting. evil + dickish npc
You could also ask:
If your PC was going to do this to an enemy, how do think it should have been handled?
yeah, good point. over the year they have bullrushed npc into furnaces, picked-up and ran away with smaller npc, swung on ropes off roofs and sneak back attacked bad guys ect. I asked them last night during the screaming what way they would of run it and got no real RAW answer. one pc thought he could get 3 full round actions (12 arrows) off while bad guy made the fall 160 feet
I guess the one thing I would question is when did the bbeg cast feather fall? Right before they hit the ground? Feather fall makes you float down at 60 feet per round so that would give the PCs some time to "stop" the bbeg from getting away at least.Would you limit the PCs the same way? If so, great. But then you have to allow for the PCs being 'shot to wormfood' as they are floating down by ranged bad guys. If not, then the NPC shouldn't be limited either, and should be able to cast it 50ft above the ground, or 10ft, or any other distance they want.
Absolutely, I would limit PCs the same way. Falling off a 500 foot cliff is pretty intimidating. Most casters would naturally cast that feather fall with some buffer involved just to avoid the mistiming (I can hear the verbal component now: "Featherf*splut*). I'm pretty much always going to have them taking the extra round to fall that last 60 feet as long as they started falling more than 60 feet high.
Ring of Featherfall and Ring of Free Action, my two 'must-have' magic items.
*sigh*
Ok, to reiterate :
PC Is asleep (Helpless)
Standard Action : Grapple helpless opponent (Wakes him up). Beats CMD by 18.
Move Action : While grappled, walk off cliff edge (up to 15 ft of movement).PC get's to try to break free (+4 CMB vs CMD). If failed, PC falls 160ft.
Although this wouldn't work normally, this completely works if the creature has the Grab ability and takes -20 to it's CMB.
I suppose having the stroppy player's character die in his sleep from a heart attack is out, then?
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Guys, guys. The official tactics for this encounter call for the BBEG to use a magic item to cast flesh to stone on a character, and then shove the resulting statue off the side of the building. That's what the GM's instructions are. Using deep slumber instead is different, but arguably similar enough not to matter much. This wasn't some "Muahahaha! I'll destroy them all!" type of thing.
Guys, guys. The official tactics for this encounter call for the BBEG to use a magic item to cast flesh to stone on a character, and then shove the resulting statue off the side of the building. That's what the GM's instructions are. Using deep slumber instead is different, but arguably similar enough not to matter much. This wasn't some "Muahahaha! I'll destroy them all!" type of thing.
the medusa mask was going to be first option.
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Intelligent NPC behaviour - the curse and enemy of unintelligent PC behaviour.
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You had NINE combatants fighting her off? Yeah, you did things just fine. She could have *easily* done a ranged coup de grace close enough (or melee) instead of dragging him off. Dragging him off is arguably the better decision (as the dice *could* have rolled poorly and allowed him to survive the 15d6... not likely, but possible).
Get rid of the problem player. I give players 3-4 games to get an average on their attitude before I decide I need to talk to one. If they don't improve after that, they're gone. Been running with some core players since, met some new ones, but overall have survived long enough to run every AP (except S&S and RoW) once. :D
Fix the core problem here. The rules aren't the issue.
It sounds like you did everything exactly right in every way Bran, and you have no culpability whatsoever in the fact that two players want to leave your game.
I'd say at this point you just recruit new players and move on.
Absolutely, I would limit PCs the same way. Falling off a 500 foot cliff is pretty intimidating. Most casters would naturally cast that feather fall with some buffer involved just to avoid the mistiming (I can hear the verbal component now: "Featherf*splut*). I'm pretty much always going to have them taking the extra round to fall that last 60 feet as long as they started falling more than 60 feet high.I guess the one thing I would question is when did the bbeg cast feather fall? Right before they hit the ground? Feather fall makes you float down at 60 feet per round so that would give the PCs some time to "stop" the bbeg from getting away at least.Would you limit the PCs the same way? If so, great. But then you have to allow for the PCs being 'shot to wormfood' as they are floating down by ranged bad guys. If not, then the NPC shouldn't be limited either, and should be able to cast it 50ft above the ground, or 10ft, or any other distance they want.
Agree with Bill. If I'm going to enforce it one way (for NPCs) then I'm going to treat the PCs similarly. We haven't used feather fall a whole lot in recent games, but it's generally assumed that a PC caster casts it as soon as they start falling. We consider it a natural reaction.
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It may be worth considering that the normal grappling rules are written from the most usual perspective, of two combatants on level ground, with no other advantages or hindrances involved.
As such, the usual caveats, of having this take two rounds to perform (one to grab, one to move), provoking AoO, bonuses to target's CMB to break free, may not necessarily apply.
Sure, grappling an awake, protesting, struggling PC shouldn't be easy, but when that PC is effectively out for the count?
It's generous to have run this as a grapple.
It could easily have been ruled as picking up an inanimate object (albeit a heavy, floppy one), which wouldn't prevent movement afterward.
PCs regularly hoist helpless allies over their shoulders, before running off with them to safety, without breaking a step.
Maybe they should be forced to stop dead and grapple them, before being allowed to do so?
And the chances of being pushed off a cliff, and the action types required to initiate it, usually allow for the fact that the pusher is trying not to go over the edge themselves. The penalties for the target being on precarious ground are mitigated by the attacker not pressing the attack as fully as they could.
Where the pusher has no fear of falling, and has an insurance policy (whether that be wings, magical flight, quickened dimension door or feather fall), that reticence would not apply.
Resistance to being dragged also assumes both parties are on level ground. It becomes far more difficult to reverse your fall, when you have a dead weight hanging from you.
And that's great. I'm fine with any rules ruling as long as it applies to both sides. It's when people want to use one set of rules for PCs and another set for NPCs that it get's hokey.
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I would say the other player had been waiting for a chance to kill the the group.It would appear that you've correctly used the RAW to kill your gaming group. This is a Pyrrhic victory at best.
-Skeld
Maybe so, but we only have one side of the story, don't we? I've been GM'ing for nearly 30 years and I'll generally give a GM the benefit of the doubt. However, PC death by GM fiat is generally bad GM'ing, and couple that with coming here for internet stranger validation to prove to your group that you're technically correct (the best kind of correct!) makes me question whether or not this scenario has more to it that what we know.
I mean, if the GM wanted to get rid of a problematic player is a passive-aggressive fashion, this thread is pretty much lays out the script you would follow.
-Skeld
That's quite a few assumptions.
Never mind leaping of a 150ft tower, I think you may have made an even larger leap!
However, PC death by GM fiat is generally bad GM'ing, and couple that with coming here for internet stranger validation to prove to your group that you're technically correct (the best kind of correct!) makes me question whether or not this scenario has more to it that what we know.
A) This is not GM Fiat. Fiat is 'Rocks fall, you die'. Or 'You open the door, a level 14 ogre attacks your 1st level character'. This was an AP with a specific bad guy who had specific tactics, one of which is to turn them to stone and push them off the ledge. The BBEG is called out to do this per the AP.
B) The players that quit were not the one who died, and they were apparently not even upset about the guy dying, they were upset because the bbeg got away.
C) The players got AoO when the BBEG grappled the sleeping character, they got a round of attacks, and then 3 more AoO (12 attacks total). How many more attacks do you consider need to be granted before it's not GM Fiat.
For all those arguing about not moving on the same turn as the grapple is initiated, you are correct. But this is a moot point since the BBEG just needed to make a Bull Rush to push the PC off the cliff.
The PC, in this case, wouldn't even get a check. As a GM, doing this as a modified Grapple instead is actually helping the PC by letting him try to make a check to avoid death.
Helpless and Prone, they would have a CMD of 10+BAB+STR (-5 for dex, -4 for being prone). This is a painfully easy check, and the BBEG only needs to move the PC 5ft.
Furthermore, there are plenty of ways to avoid fall damage, or even to survive it, and if the Player didn't spend on those resources, well that sucks for him. If they don't have enough HP to survive the fall (Avg. 56 dmg), sucks for him. If any caster in the group had Feather Fall, a REALLY common spell, then he would have been saved. If the PCs had woken their ally up, he could have been saved.
As for them shooting the BBEG as he falls, depends on when he cast Feather Fall. Presumably he is smart enough to cast it near the bottom of the fall with 10ft or so left to go. If he cast it at the beginning of the fall, then it would take him three rounds to reach the bottom, but any smart NPC that is trying to make a getaway will not do this precisely because they don't want to be a floating pin cushion.
It sounds like you did everything exactly right in every way Bran, and you have no culpability whatsoever in the fact that two players want to leave your game.
I'd say at this point you just recruit new players and move on.
ty dragon, the whole point of this post is so I feel that I didn't break rules causing a pc's death and identify the constant problem we have with this other pc. I wish you could of seen him red faced screaming at me while everybody else were packing up their dice bags. As he ranted on, he got another pc to join him saying "you cant cast feather fall in same round"...wrong...".my 2ft bird could of grabbed the falling pc"...wrong, not even in next square "we should be able to get multiple attacks off while they fall downward" nope...."the mage can cast feather fall" no, not memorized and out of range..."we get free attacks of opportunity" sure, 9 is not enough for you...have 4 more
I wish you could of seen him red faced screaming at me while everybody else were packing up their dice bags.
Whoa. I don't need to read any more. That guy has serious issues and wouldn't be allowed within a dice throw of my game. Anyone behaving like that in a game needs to go away and grow up.
Sound to me like you created an encounter specifically to kill a PC.. That's always fun as a player.. (please note the sarcasm)
It was a published scenario. The encounter was published by people who had never met the OP or his group. Not really the GM creating an encounter specifically to kill someone.