Imagine being inside a pokeball...
at least until they can grow the eid yes
The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
RAW is clear.
RAW is made for medium and small creatures because all playable races are small or medium. You can grow via abilities or spells but that is a special situation that lasts only a few minutes.A large creature is mostly a NPC or requires a GM permission. In this case a GM must decide how he rules this on his table. The RAW cannot include every special case.
Maybe Synthesists are not an option for ogres or you houserule it.
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A large creature is mostly a NPC or requires a GM permission. In this case a GM must decide how he rules this on his table. The RAW cannot include every special case.
Maybe Synthesists are not an option for ogres or you houserule it.
I would not actually consider "cover creatures of any size" to be a special case. I'd still like a RAW way to handle Ogre Synthesists as NPCs without houseruling it, or having to wait until I can throw the party at "Ogre CR+The Number of Levels it Takes Before the Ogre Can Legally Buy His Eidolon Up to the Point that it is usable."
I see two valid choices they could have made here to cover it, and I'm just a bit disappointed they did neither. They could either make sure the Eidolon is at least your size, or they could have you become smaller when synthesized, if necessary.
In the case of temporary growth, the Eidolon would also be affected, so that would be a non-issue.
In the case of creatures bigger than medium, yeah I guess I will have to houserule it as: "Synthesists must have an eidolon of their own size or larger. In the case where the base synthesist is larger than the eidolon would be, the eidolon's size is advanced until it matches, regardless of usual class level requirements or the number of Evolution Points available. The Evolution Points are still paid, however, and this can result in the character having a negative number of Evolution Points. A Synthesist with a negative number of evolution points is treated as having 0 evolution points."
A large creature is mostly a NPC or requires a GM permission. In this case a GM must decide how he rules this on his table. The RAW cannot include every special case.
Maybe Synthesists are not an option for ogres or you houserule it.
I would not actually consider "cover creatures of any size" to be a special case. I'd still like a RAW way to handle Ogre Synthesists as NPCs without houseruling it, or having to wait until I can throw the party at "Ogre CR+The Number of Levels it Takes Before the Ogre Can Legally Buy His Eidolon Up to the Point that it is usable."
I see two valid choices they could have made here to cover it, and I'm just a bit disappointed they did neither. They could either make sure the Eidolon is at least your size, or they could have you become smaller when synthesized, if necessary.
In the case of temporary growth, the Eidolon would also be affected, so that would be a non-issue.
In the case of creatures bigger than medium, yeah I guess I will have to houserule it as: "Synthesists must have an eidolon of their own size or larger. In the case where the base synthesist is larger than the eidolon would be, the eidolon's size is advanced until it matches, regardless of usual class level requirements or the number of Evolution Points available. The Evolution Points are still paid, however, and this can result in the character having a negative number of Evolution Points. A Synthesist with a negative number of evolution points is treated as having 0 evolution points."
The large evolution is THE MOST powerful evolution in the summoners potent portfolio. Allowing it at level 1, even if the base creature is large would make an already powerful class even more so. By a large margin. Sure you dont get to choose an evolution untill 3rd level but that 1 4 point evolution represents a MASSIVE power boost.
I personally wouldnt do it, and I am ok with races that it makes non sense for, not being able to be synthesist. The whole point of a synthesist is to take what is ostensibly a weak caster and put on his eidolon suit to be a badass martial character. Ogres are already physically powerful martial characters. They'd be better served as normal summoners fighting along side their eidolon instead of in it.
The combination of a large summoner, synthesist and a medium eidolon is 1 from 1000 possible builds. Additionally it is a real uncommon combination because ogre summoner are really rare and orges are not a common PC race.
Sometimes it is time for a GM call .. we dont need rules / laws for everything.
Do you think your players will kill you if you build something impossible by RAW? They will kill the weired ogre thing and loot it.. :)
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I would rule that the ogre looses his natural reach and gains all other benefits of 'fused eidolon'. With a large eidolon he regains his natural reach.
I'd houserule it to read :
'The eidelon must be at least as big as the summoner. If this is not possible (for example, a large summoner at level 1), then the synthesist cannot fully fuse with his eidelon. He gains the evolutions and temporary hp, but uses his own physical stats until he can give his eidelon an appropriate size evolution.'
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'The eidelon must be at least as big as the summoner. If this is not possible (for example, a large summoner at level 1), then the synthesist cannot fully fuse with his eidelon. He gains the evolutions and temporary hp, but uses his own physical stats until he can give his eidelon an appropriate size evolution.'
Hmm.
Alright MDT.Just to clarify, what would he not get from Synthesist and instead use his own?
- Size/Reach
- Attributes
Would he get the Natural Armor Bonuses?
Would he get the two Claw Attacks he gets for Bipedal Eidolon (assuming he wants to use them)?
He'd get everything he had an evolution for.
He would not get his physical stats replaced.
He would use his own size/reach.
Basically I'd envision it as his eidelon stretching to become an exosuit, rather than a full on armored body. So bits of the Summoner are still in evidence, rather than a full fusion. Like the ogre had put on an Eidelon suit one size to small and burst the seams.
So yeah, he'd get the claws, but it'd be obvious he was using his own muscles to power them, like he was wearing a set of paws.
EDIT : Oh, and I'd not give him the BAB boost from his eidelon, I'd use the class BAB instead.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own.
The only thing that is not considered by RAW is the natural reach. The RAW for reach is hidden in the size requirements.
The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
Replace this with 'The natural reach is limited by the size of the eidolon.'
As a player, I would just use the limitation as a roleplaying tool until the Large evolution could be bought (for instance, I might have dream-conversations with this otherworldly spirit). I wouldn't ask the GM to rewrite the rules to make them work for me (since being a Large-sized synthesist would be my deliberate choice), beyond possibly asking if I could summon the eidolon in the normal fashion until it was large enough for the character to merge with it (which would then be a pretty neat roleplaying moment).
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Hmm.
@Are -> allowing a player to convert their Summoner into a Synthesist is an approach I hadn't considered. That might work too.
@mdt -> Out of Curiosity, why no BAB Change? I would think that's a function of the Eidolon in the Summoner's brain giving him better combat skill, moreso than a function of the physical prowess the Eidolon gives.
@Eridan, what do you mean? Could you expand on that post, I don't quite understand.
He's not fully fused with it, so I'd rule that he can't access that better prowess and combat skill the eidolon has. He's basically wearing it as a partial suit.
Why both do not simple count like large , but the eidolon does not get the bonus to stats and so on till he pays for it?
To begin with , eidolon large and being large are not the same.
You notice this by the simple fact that , the eidolon bonus are bigger than a normal creature would have just because it is large.
Ugh. This is why I don't like Large PCs. If it's a monster I'm throwing at the party, I can do whatever I feel like and adjust the CR accordingly.
The Large PC thing comes up way more often than the Synthesist.
If I throw an ogre wizard at the party and I want it to be able to cast emergency force sphere, I don't give a rat's arse that the effect is normally only a 5' radius hemisphere around the caster and thus would require the ogre to sit on her feet to work. It doesn't affect the CR to allow a proportionally larger sphere, so I just do it. If a PC is playing an ogre, though, I have to get into all kinds of issues of game balance, player jealousy and the like.
I'd ban Large PCs before banning synthesists. I don't ban either right now, but the former is a real pain.
Medium eidolon: base STR +0 , base DEX +0, base CON +0,base nat. armor +0, 5ft reach
Large eidolon: base STR +8 , base DEX -2, base CON +4,base nat. armor +2, 10ft reach
Large creature: base STR +0 , base DEX +0, base CON +0,base nat. armor +x, 10ft reach
Large creature in a medium eidolon:
eido base STR +0 , eido base DEX +0, eido base CON +0, eido base nat. armor +0, 5ft reach
Having a large summoner re-train into synthesist at later levels seems like a good and interesting solution.
It also pushes interesting RP possibilities for the player to roleplay the process of learning how to bond with their Eidolon.
He's not fully fused with it, so I'd rule that he can't access that better prowess and combat skill the eidolon has. He's basically wearing it as a partial suit.
You know this has made me think, what if you eliminated the stats of the eidolon entirely from the synthesist, and just applied evolutions, stat and natural armor boosts and hd as temp hp to the form of the summoner directly. It would remove the 'return of codzilla' effect that the stat replacement of the synthesist has, and you would have worry about the wonkiness of the 2 beings as a single target language that the synthesist has.
that wouldn't be too bad. i've been saying they need to apply them as polymorph effects.
biped +2 str, quadruped +2 dex, etc. instead of full stat replacement.make them more like Guyver.
Thats kind of what I was thinking. Might make the synthesist alot more interesting. Particularly if they are ACTUALLY polymore effects, and have nothing to do with outsiders. Hmmm...