The Curious thing about Chaotic and Lawful Afterlifes (and other Head Scratchers)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I've been thinking about the whole Chaos Vs Law thing. And I'm beginning to wonder whether the way its presented is actually reasonable.

Most of the inventive minds I can think up are the type that would probably try novel approaches, deny sticking to set rules and question if the ones that are already there are right.

... That is hardly Lawful, is closer to Chaotic. And yet, despite that, its the Inevitable that wind up looking like the pinnacle of that era's science.

Wouldn't it make more sense for a a Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic good Scientist who spent their life trying to expand the boundaries of what they know and discard previous assumptions of rules of Society, Reality and Morality in the pursuit of science and truth want to have a spiritual body more symbolic of Science as well? Something that may be described as an "Adaptive Machine"?

And what of the more restrictive Lawful characters? If there are cultures or individuals who vehemently stick to rigid rules and ideologies, wouldn't at least some of them oppose Progress into "Forbidden" research into how the world works? Even it just because their tenants say so? Heck, might not some of them be uncomfortable with the idea of ending up looking like a machine like an inevitable does because to them such a far reaching modification to the natural form would be Heresy to them? If only because such self modification of the natural form is against their rigid system of Rules?

Basically... It feels weird to assume that Physical Law is somehow meant to be machine like, while chaos is organic.

Where's The Miku Hatsune Azata? Where's the Afterlife for the Amnish?
Where's the Computer Virus Demons and the section of Hell where their "Infernal Tortures" have to be carried out with one's bare hands and no infernal devices at all or else be considered Herasy to that section of Devils?

This may be modern sensibility taken a bit far here... But it certainly felt like SOME kind of dissonance to me, so I thought I'd Share.

...

If you guys have any similar quandaries where ignoring the MST3K Mantra leads to realizing the game's not perfect on a lot of issues, share them here if you want. I don't mind. There has to be other times Traditional Fantasy themes clash with something like this. And I'm not sure there's a dedicated thread for that yet.


The Law/Chaos isn't always (and I would argue for PF's sake, is generally not) tied to following the established order of things vs. overturning everything.

In other words, in my view a Lawful person is just as likely to have an untidy house and constantly be trying new things as anyone else. But they put commitment to an order outside themselves above being ruled by individual dictate when it comes to major life choices. The Chaotic person believes individual needs should outweigh the views of others because the individual has to determine their own destiny and not have it doled out to them by others. Again, primarily in context if major life choices.

So the Lawful scientist may very well be trying new and novel approaches to things in order to further science, things no one else has considered, but they will make sure to adhere to the dictates of what is legally allowed. To put it in real world terms, a Lawful stem cell researcher, while possibly on the cutting edge of what the world sees as acceptable, and while working within a field that is heavily laden with legal landmines, would still seek out novel approaches and would just try to shift to a country more amenable to their world view so as to stay within the boundaries of law. The Lawful Evil subtype might be willing to find such a place that also allows less scrupulous methods of procuring raw samples.

The Chaotic scientist might be stodgy and reactionary but on a larger scale see themselves as defending everyone's right to be so. They may see trends toward novelty in research as an attack, as an attempt to enforce that change on EVERYONE regardless of that researcher's personal desires. They may not like new modes of thought and may dislike anyone's attempt to foist it off on them.

Anyhow... my two coppers.


Quintessentially Me wrote:

The Law/Chaos isn't always (and I would argue for PF's sake, is generally not) tied to following the established order of things vs. overturning everything.

In other words, in my view a Lawful person is just as likely to have an untidy house and constantly be trying new things as anyone else. But they put commitment to an order outside themselves above being ruled by individual dictate when it comes to major life choices. The Chaotic person believes individual needs should outweigh the views of others because the individual has to determine their own destiny and not have it doled out to them by others. Again, primarily in context if major life choices.

So the Lawful scientist may very well be trying new and novel approaches to things in order to further science, things no one else has considered, but they will make sure to adhere to the dictates of what is legally allowed. To put it in real world terms, a Lawful stem cell researcher, while possibly on the cutting edge of what the world sees as acceptable, and while working within a field that is heavily laden with legal landmines, would still seek out novel approaches and would just try to shift to a country more amenable to their world view so as to stay within the boundaries of law. The Lawful Evil subtype might be willing to find such a place that also allows less scrupulous methods of procuring raw samples.

The Chaotic scientist might be stodgy and reactionary but on a larger scale see themselves as defending everyone's right to be so. They may see trends toward novelty in research as an attack, as an attempt to enforce that change on EVERYONE regardless of that researcher's personal desires. They may not like new modes of thought and may dislike anyone's attempt to foist it off on them.

Anyhow... my two coppers.

Okay... Nice counter points, but a little sticky in places.

Considerably the fact that since Chaotic tends towards accepting individuals and individual thought, then outright taking someone else's individual thoughts that make up a novel and individual solution on the issue to be an attack is kinda... Backwards?

But that's a side argument I suppose. The point as intended was more "Why does an Ideal Chaotic Scientist have to settle for one of the less Technological looking Outsider Forms while a Lawful Neutral Luddite/Amish might be rammed into the body of an Inevitable?" Rather than an argument about defining the Moral Spectrum.


Problem is , alignments are usually stupid.

Like LN , "A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.

Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot."

So you can have a scientist with a personal code that says he/she will do anything to further his/her research.(Would need to be more complex than this , but you got the idea)

There will be rules , but they totally vary from person to person and they may have nothing to do with the society rules , maybe one wont experiment on kids while the other will , one wont on woman the other will ...


how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

Silver Crusade

Lamontius wrote:

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

Shh, we'll have somebody come in and cite some obscure rule on the perform(Dance) skill.

What is important to remember is being lawful does not equal 'dullard incapable of progress.' Proteans accomplish nothing because they lack structure and true focus. Inevitables being extremely lawful however are focused monomaniacally on their functions, but I'm certain if one of them was designed for 'the inevitability of advancement' he'd keep crugging away.

Whats also important to remember is that genuine scientific achievement has arisen from various sources and philosophies. Its only the hidebound people of our modern era who erroneously assume that all advancement had to come from people who shared their social opinions.

Ironically a lot of people responsible for engineering advances, or advances in physics have been ones that I'd qualify in the low wis, high int variety.


Appearance is fluff. Have a nanite technofetish protean, or a perfectly formed luddite inevitable.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, first off, at least in Pathfinder, Inevitables don't look like machines because they're lawful, they look like machines because they are artificial creations of the Axiomites in the first place. They don't just appear out of the ether, they're constructed (as it says right here in their entry). So, them looking like machines is less a commentary on lawfulness in general, and more them being...machines. Axiomites themselves look more or less like normal albeit very symmetrical humanoids as I recall, capable of turning into a cloud of crystal dust. If the proteans wanted to build their own outsider race for whatever reason, it might look machine-like too. Or like a snail in the process of eating a village of midgets. Or a a giant foot. Who knows. Proteans are weird.

So, that's the Inevitables themselves. Next up, chaos or good being more scientific. You say that some chaotic people might be more inclined to question things taken for granted, and that lawful people might be unwilling to shake the boat, or be part of a society that frowns on studying certain things. This could hypothetically be true in certain scenarios, but. Science is not just about coming up with new ideas. Science is about proving them...or disproving them. Science is the scientific method.

Anyone can come up with an idea, that idea might even be right, but the only way to really know for sure is to buckle down and give it extensive, methodical testing. And half the time, those ideas come after you give some extensive thought and study so you have some data to make a hypothesis or come up with an idea about why it's acting that way in the first place. And assembling that knowledge in the first place is often a time-consuming project, aided by all those obsessive-compulsive people in the past who gathered data on different kinds of leaves on a bush, collected a ton of random stories from random peasants, or had the morbid habit of collecting malformed aborted sheep fetuses.

And, it is in that mind-numbingly dull search through data, or the slow process of generating more data by trying the same experiments over and over again with minor differences between them, trying to fit things together and understand how things affect one another that much of science occurs. I'm not going to claim you have to be lawful to do that, but it probably damn well helps. Does that mean that all lawful people are inherently scientific? No, not at all. Some of them are happy with some other sense of order, whether it's internal, working on achieving self-control and having a nice, tidy life, being an accountant, following the rules of some form of religion or spirituality, or beating up goblins. Can a chaotic person not do science? No, not at all. Admittedly, it's probably not much fun for them to go through the scientific method, but they might just be obsessed or driven enough to prove the system is wrong and that they're right. And who knows, they might even wind up being right!

But finally, I don't think it matters very much what you were before you died in regards to what you become in the afterlife. A petitioner only has fragmented memories of their life. A scientist, a farmer, a politician, an impoverished person just trying to feed their family, a cultist, a librarian...those are just labels. It doesn't matter what you did, what matters is what you did made of you...or at least what it made of your soul. Did you become bitter and hateful, did you persevere in believing the world could be made a better place, did you keep trying to make sense of everything...whether you became that way while doing science or while farming or while begging for food on the street corner just...isn't important in the grand scheme of things. A few outsiders might remember more than most, but many of them would probably wind up being special cases anyways if they managed to survive. After all, not like the afterlife is especially safe in Pathfinder, now, is it?

Silver Crusade

Luthorne wrote:


Science is the scientific method.

I otherwise agree with this post, but not this. No, no no. God no.

The scientific method is a tool, and it's a tool useful only for certain portions of endeavour into expanding the knowledge base. Not all science is physics and chemistry.

The idea that all things can be reducible into experimentation is scientism. Mathematics, particularly, cannot be proven by the scientific method, but I doubt anyone is going to claim it therefore isn't true. (I can't perform an experiment to determine the true ideal of two-ness, but you can come to a logical proof on it). Mathematics arises from logical inference. The whole thing is better approached by a better writer here: http://tofspot.blogspot.com/2013/07/ismism.html

But...back to the matter at hand.

The argument here seems to be that Lawful Outsiders are more hidebound, and Chaotic outsiders are more 'free thinking.' Personally, I think the argument is more that the aesthetics place the appearance, in a star trek way, that the Axiomites are smarter then the Proteans because the Axiomites built themselves a race of self-propagating robots powered by philosophy.

Proteans aren't dumb, but here's the fundemental problem with trying to apply concepts of scientific advancement while arguing from outsiders.

To an outsider, physic is philosophy.

Proteans don't worry about scientific advancement. They just change the laws of the universe to suit themselves. They don't need to figure out hwo to build robots, if they want a robot they just decide a robot will be there, made out of marzipan and the sighs of bored blacksmiths or something. They don't really care about the laws of thermodynamics, they just make the crap up as they go along.

Axiomites? They live the damn law. They don't need to discover it, they already know it. Chances are they are it. So scientific discovery is unnecessary for them, they already know it by heart.

Ultimately, axiomites probably don't care about science or scientific advancment because they already know the laws of reality and can do basically everything. And proteans probably don't care about scientific advancement because they don't give a damn about the laws of reality and can do basically everything.

Now, when we return to mortals, we get into the world where there are hidebound folks who don't move outside of 'what has been determined,' (all orbits must be perfect circles because plato said so) who might classify as lawful; and we have their counterparts who don't bother making organized methods for determining or testing their theories (I declare the earth rotates the sun, not because I can prove it, but because its just /right!/)

But when it comes to mortals, alignment is a rich rainbow and not a straightjacket. So arguing chaotic guys can't study science, or lawful guys are intrinsically bad at it, is folly. Chaos doesn't lack the capability to plan and law doesn't lack the ability to change.


Lamontius wrote:

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

That depends upon two things. The area of the head of a pin, and the amount of area the angels need to dance. Once you know those, simply divide one into the other.


Vod Canockers wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

That depends upon two things. The area of the head of a pin, and the amount of area the angels need to dance. Once you know those, simply divide one into the other.

probably also; If the pin is of a material strong enough to carry even one angel, if the surface is sufficient friction to allow for standing, the shape of the pin, etc


Diekssus wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

That depends upon two things. The area of the head of a pin, and the amount of area the angels need to dance. Once you know those, simply divide one into the other.
probably also; If the pin is of a material strong enough to carry even one angel, if the surface is sufficient friction to allow for standing, the shape of the pin, etc

definitely also, while it is acceptable to ask how many angels can it is also necessary to ask how many angels will. Pins are not the best place to dance. Lack of warm-up space, alcohol restrictions OR overabundance depending on pin, poor lighting, ambience, acoustics - you name it. Baaaaaad.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Diekssus wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin

That depends upon two things. The area of the head of a pin, and the amount of area the angels need to dance. Once you know those, simply divide one into the other.
probably also; If the pin is of a material strong enough to carry even one angel, if the surface is sufficient friction to allow for standing, the shape of the pin, etc
definitely also, while it is acceptable to ask how many angels can it is also necessary to ask how many angels will. Pins are not the best place to dance. Lack of warm-up space, alcohol restrictions OR overabundance depending on pin, poor lighting, ambience, acoustics - you name it. Baaaaaad.

If we assume the pin being mentioned is a regulation sized pin of approximately 0.1cm, and considering the size of Angels in Pathfinder is above that, and given that an Angel might be forced to dance on the head of a Pin at some point, and all other conditions are "optimal" we can guess the answer as Follows:

One, as long as you consider having violent spasms to be dancing.

But of course, this requires the question of how many angels to be interpreted as "how many can dance similtaneously on the head of a pin".

Its quite possible the intended question may have been "How many are capable of dancing on the head of a pin" regardless of how many are dancing on said pin.

Spook205 wrote:
Proteans don't worry about scientific advancement. They just change the laws of the universe to suit themselves. They don't need to figure out how to build robots, if they want a robot they just decide a robot will be there, made out of marzipan and the sighs of bored blacksmiths or something. They don't really care about the laws of thermodynamics, they just make the crap up as they go along.

This brings up a new question... Have Proteans ever bothered to take on the form of something construct like? If theoretically they can look like as a base form or take on the form of whatever they want by bending the rules or reality... Then why haven't they?

At this point nobody seems to expect Proteans to have a fondness for Robotic style trends, which because they are beings who are claimed to thrive off doing things you wouldn't expect them to, almost assures that at least one protean does like Robots and would rather have their base form contain at least "Robotic looking" elements, even if some or all of the parts don't work the way reality would expect them to.

...

I don't even know how my brain survived that train of thought.

In any case... I kinda want to see someone come up with some radical concept for a Tech inspired Chaotic Outsider. Probably something like a Computer Virus-y thing?

Eh... Half expecting someone to pick up on that idea when framing this thread as an argument should probably have been expected.


BlueStorm wrote:

I've been thinking about the whole Chaos Vs Law thing. And I'm beginning to wonder whether the way its presented is actually reasonable.

The entire alignment system is unreasonable, contradictory, ambiguous, and confusing on its best days. It's best removed and ignored.


Zhayne wrote:
BlueStorm wrote:

I've been thinking about the whole Chaos Vs Law thing. And I'm beginning to wonder whether the way its presented is actually reasonable.

The entire alignment system is unreasonable, contradictory, ambiguous, and confusing on its best days. It's best removed and ignored.

I find that incredibly narrow-minded. That's just the other side of the same coin, when it comes to the critique your leveling at the alignment system

Silver Crusade

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Diekssus wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
BlueStorm wrote:

I've been thinking about the whole Chaos Vs Law thing. And I'm beginning to wonder whether the way its presented is actually reasonable.

The entire alignment system is unreasonable, contradictory, ambiguous, and confusing on its best days. It's best removed and ignored.
I find that incredibly narrow-minded. That's just the other side of the same coin, when it comes to the critique your leveling at the alignment system

"All sons of the old gods must die!!" Its a usual argument on these forums, the whole 'we should move away from alignment, and classes, and levels, and hit points, and restrictive mechanics, then we can dance and cavort beneath the watchful eyes of James Jacthulhu and all will be right.'

Yes, I know my statement's a bit on the straw side, but I'm usuing reductio ad absurdum here.

Alignment isn't with the problem. Trying to legally codify alignment without setting up objective polestars for it is the problem. The 'I'm ok if you're ok' view doesn't work in a world where good and evil are set things.

There is no 'its ok for them because in their culture killing puppies is lawful good' in alignment. The second you start putting that stuff in, it gets whacky.

The ethical scale built in actually helps for a good idea of how characters act in general. The trick is that people come along, cite the 'official descriptions' of the alignments and try to force characters into those categories. Its essentially morality by RAW, and like most things by RAW, its an exercise in insanity.

Frankly, the idea of a CN Protean who builds an intensely ordered system of bueracracies and robots, wih the intention of making people hate it, or of just being contrary because /he/ likes it that way seems perfectly CN to me.

Similarly I've got a canon immigrant in my game (Coaxmetal from Planescape Torment) who's an Inevitable representing the inevitable concept of degeneration, entropy and decay.

The trick is the approach people take to it. Coaxmetal is LN in my game, he works towards dissolution of systems, chaos and spreading engines that will unmake things, or reduce them to primal states. He does this because its his function to do so.

The Protean above is CN. He sets up bueracracies and builds programmed robots because he finds it amusing to do so. He's essentially Protean Dr. Wily.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So far as it goes, mechanical aesthetics are associated with Law because a machine, particularly a gear works, consists of many parts subsumed into a greater whole, each with an assigned role that must be performed exactly and without deviation, lest the whole fail to function as a result. A machine is also emblematic of a lack of free will, unable to go beyond the limitations of its design/programming.


Revan wrote:
So far as it goes, mechanical aesthetics are associated with Law because a machine, particularly a gear works, consists of many parts subsumed into a greater whole, each with an assigned role that must be performed exactly and without deviation, lest the whole fail to function as a result. A machine is also emblematic of a lack of free will, unable to go beyond the limitations of its design/programming.

Except not all Programs are made with Limitations. Some Programs, such as Computer Viruses, A-Life Programs (Short for Artificial Life, they're basically evolving and near living computer programs) and AI built on Neural Networks do not necessarily have a "Limit" built into their programs and in some cases their state of thriving comes about by breaking the system.

Granted, we're talking computers now instead of regular machines, but the point is that each of these artificial systems does not have any "Limit" other than disk space. And often their goals aren't stated beyond the minimum required for the program to remain operating, and they often wind up learning and performing some weird behaviors when not in immediate need to do something.

Also note, if it were possible to create a program with all of the traits of the other self sufficient programs, you would wind up with what I would best describe as a CE Computerized Imp-Like-Thing. Either that or a Digital Protean-Like thing.

...Oh... One more thing... All of these programs are unpredictable as to their "Performance", and on any given run it's near impossible to figure out what they're going to do.


Probably the best thing to remember about alignments is that the one claimed is just the dominant alignment. A persons alignment is not a single distination in some freakish hard line stereotype of the alignment. It's a point on a grid, and that point is proably not very far from the point where the law/chaos & good/evil axis intersect. So basically most people are pretty close to each other with a preference that falls into one of 9 camps. That camp will be the default position but not the only position that character holds.

Even characters that have a strong tilt towards a single axis will only be a few points away from the centeral point. So a character showing a strong Lawful or Chaotic front is not refused the opportunity to act chaotically or lawfully in any given situation. people are complex creatures and act in a myriad of ways.

The big thing to remember about alignments is they are not grand philosphies. They are simply a means to give a bit of character definition to a character. You choose an alignment and that gives you a rough idea of how you think that character will GENERALLY act. That doesn't mean that an evil charcter always does evil, or a good one always good, or that either should be punished in game for not living up to that.

Alignment's are not stupid (as the only respondant said), however the way we try to pigeonhole characters into stereotypical actions based on them is.


Ahlmzhad wrote:
Alignment's are not stupid (as the only respondant said), however the way we try to pigeonhole characters into stereotypical actions based on them is.

And somehow it becomes apparent that we've all been spending 90% of our effort arguing over what alignment means rather than the reason why there's no Chaotic whatever Techno Outsider, despite that being relatively sensible within the rather flexible Alignment Spectrum, and Technological Outsiders already exist for the Lawfuls.

...I'm pretty sure the post I'm quoting might even be breaking one fundamental rule of (Competitive) debating anyways...

...Whatever minor point you're arguing, link it back to the Topic guys. It's not that hard. Heck, its basic English class Essay rules even.

Let's move on shall we?

(Also, I'm pretty sure the fact alignments aren't stupid and are flexible is pretty much the starting assumptions for the argument we should be having to even exist. And aside from one person, nobody has really found issue with it. So calm down, you're wasting energy on something others have already addressed.)

Contributor

BlueStorm wrote:


In any case... I kinda want to see someone come up with some radical concept for a Tech inspired Chaotic Outsider. Probably something like a Computer Virus-y thing?

There's a protean in my home game that's best described as a living cipher written down on a parchment (like a sentient computer virus dwelling within books and other written documents).

And there's a protean within the Maelstrom constructing a weird crystalline fractal thing which is technically I suppose something you could consider ordered.


Revan wrote:
So far as it goes, mechanical aesthetics are associated with Law because a machine, particularly a gear works, consists of many parts subsumed into a greater whole, each with an assigned role that must be performed exactly and without deviation, lest the whole fail to function as a result. A machine is also emblematic of a lack of free will, unable to go beyond the limitations of its design/programming.

But the biology of a living creature is a biological/organic machine, with specialized cells completing specialized functions, working together for the betterment of the whole. Heck, we as complex living creatures have simple living creatures symbiotically within each of our cells (mitochondria).

In short, trying to say machines are lawful because they are built of parts working together is silly.


I think there's just as much possibility for chaotic technology as there is lawful technology. It requires the assumption that the technology will always work, as long as it follows whatever rules it requires (thermodynamics, gear ratio, or whatever). The thing is, with lawful technology the rules are static. Every steam engine and inevitable works the same way, and other people (especially lawful people) can easily learn how it works and replicate it. Chaotic technology is individual. Lawful people rarely figure out how chaostech functions, and the underlying mechanics can be fairly opaque even to other chaotic technicians.


Jonathon Vining wrote:
I think there's just as much possibility for chaotic technology as there is lawful technology. It requires the assumption that the technology will always work, as long as it follows whatever rules it requires (thermodynamics, gear ratio, or whatever). The thing is, with lawful technology the rules are static. Every steam engine and inevitable works the same way, and other people (especially lawful people) can easily learn how it works and replicate it. Chaotic technology is individual. Lawful people rarely figure out how chaostech functions, and the underlying mechanics can be fairly opaque even to other chaotic technicians.

To crib from another games system: Warhammer 40K. Most tech is Lawful in origin. Orks? Completely chaos-tech. It works because they believe it should work that way. Why do they paint a vehicle red? Because it goes faster. And because that's what they believe of it, that's what it does. (It also helps that they're a race of psychics that generates a latent psychic field that allows this breaking of the rules of reality at their racial whim).

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