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So there's at least one city in Golarion that is completely welcoming of half-orcs, has them as the primary population, and has a decent culture. It's located in the archipelago of the Steaming Sea, off the coasts of the Land of the Linnorm Kings and Varisia.
Meanwhile, the ARG's entry for half-orcs features this at the end of their background flavor:
Even more rarely, certain human cultures come to embrace half-orcs for their strength. There are stories of places where people see half-orc children as a blessing and seek out half-orc or orc lovers. In these cultures, half-orcs lead lives not much different from full-blooded humans.
Okay, hell yes, that bolded bit is exacrtly the kind of origin I'd want for my half-orc. Two of the greatest frustrations with half-orcs in Golarion is that tragedy tends to be hardwired into the origins of orc/human-parented half-orcs and that there's no real culture to speak of to pull from on the orc side of things for half-orc PCs. But that quote opens up possible alternatives to both those issues.
Unfortunately, there aren't any places that stand out as making that sort of human-orc union reasonably likely in Golarion so far. While Shoanti engaging in that sort of thing would be awesome(because they have the perfect cultural match for half-orcs, seriously), the Shoanti tribes that share borders with the orcs of Belkzen are pretty adamantly anti-orc. That and the orcs that are on that border are among the worst of the worst. And even if the Gorumite tribes of Belkzen are notably better than the Rovagugi tribes, they still share borders and constantly war with Lastwall, so there's not much hope for peaceful meetings there. I was hoping support for this might sneak into Trunau as a sort of retcon, but so far it looks like that town has kind of doubled down on orc/human relations being completely negative. Kaer Maga might be a source of peaceful unions considering its a place for outcasts of all sorts, but it likely doesn't have anything to offer in the way of orc culture that can't be found in Belkzen.
But what about Averaka? That city was built up as being more cosmopolitan than the norm and frequently having gatherings to discuss the future of half-orcs in the Inner Sea. Those meetings occur in a place called Orcmoot, IIRC. Admittedly, that name might have been chosen simply because it's less unweildy than Halforcmoot, but it was still named that by the populace of Averaka, most likely with positive connotations. So there isn't exactly a rejecting of all things orc going on there.
So, pulling from that, could there be a sizable full-orc population there, either integrated with the half-orcs of Averaka or separate in settlements of their own, with a non-monstrous culture all there own, completely unlike the tribes of Belkzen? Something that the Averakans could actually pull positive stuff from and build upon?
What might such a culture be like? I have to admit that the "stronghold" orcs of Skyrim come to mind due to Averaka's location, hopefully without the built-in sexism but still keeping that harsh, forged-through-adversity tone. But maybe it would be something different altogether?
edit-Is Flintyreach, the large island Averaka and Orcmoot are located on, volcanically active? Wondering if that might be a possible open door for Valani worship to be a thing amongst any possible orcs there.
Lots of hailmark half-orc-related Mikaze (Mikazen?) awesomeness
Dotting for later because this might just have given me an idea for the non-evil Orcish background I want to give one of my group's PCs.
Makamu
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Thinking about it some more, if there is an orc society in or near Averaka and Orcmoot, maybe a possible controlling factor to their ususally explosive population growth could be a combination of moderately high turnover from that "forged by adversity" lifestyle due to monsters and enviornmental hazards coupled with frequent marrying into the human and half-orc populace of the island?
Maybe the half-orcs see that adversity/challenge-based culture as something great to draw from and build upon, but they might also see it as being stagnant without a push from the new ideas being brought in from across the Inner Sea? That is, much of their heritage is defined by their proud ancestors fighting bears and fending off threats to their way of life and such, but that can't be the be-all and end-all of their aspirations. So they take that same attitude and ply it towards shipbuilding and trade and whatnot.
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So...if there is a decent orc culture present on Averaka, what is it like?
Going back to how the location of the Ironbound Islands evokes Skyrim a bit, it would be easy to just port over and rewire the "stronghold orc" culture to Golarion. But with the sexist power structure and marriage arrangements excised. And likely with some refocusing due to Skyrim's orcs seeming to tend towards lawful a bit, when the Golarion norm should probably lean chaotic.
Maybe mining could remain an important part of their culture, but perhaps it should be deemphasized here? Forging prowess certainly seems like it should be bumped back a bit. The idea of the communal longhouse is really appealing though, especially when one considers how cold the area likely gets during winter. Honestly, the look of those longhouses seems a natural fit.
Shamanistic/totemic belief system still seems the way to go, along with the usual gods being seen through different eyes. Thinking over the gods that seem like they would embody and define a decent orc culture, I keep winding up with:
The Old Gods
Father Fire - Valani
Reflavored quite a bit, trading many of the Polynesian trappings for orc and revered as embodying the primal forces that shape the island(s) this culture could be located. Those same violent forces could also be a force for cleansing and renewal, like how volcanoes and forest fires can be beneficial in their own way. Not sure about the "Father" title though.(see below)
Mother Raven - Pharasma
Basic dual-natured mother deity stuff, both birth and death. Heavy raven association makes me think of them practicing "sky burials" here like my homebrew orcs.
The World - Gozreh
Writes itself, likely with the harshness of nature emphasized to play into a possible adversity-based culture. "It sustains you and is your greatest foe" and all that.
Brother Iron - Gorum
Basically the embodiment of that adversity/challenge based mentality.
Sister Wasp - Calistria
Deemphasizing trickery perhaps, but the lust and especially vengeance could play well into the culture, especially with the more even-handed Calistrian attitude towards vengeance(take it in a proper measure and then be done with it). Actually, that aspect really sticks out. Maybe when there is an issue where one orc has wronged another, the wronged party is expected to take it out on them but when the head shaman/wise woman/etc. says that it'd done, it'd over and everyone is fully expected to go back to life as normal.
Grandfather Hunter - Erastil?
Given that this culture would probably be sustained mainly through hunting and they do need to pull together to survive, Erastil seems a natural fit. And he is a very old god. But he's also lawful, and while there may be something to be said for that offering a stabilizing element to a pantheon that leans chaotic, maybe there is a better fit in Cernunnos? Could Cernunnos fulfill the role of a god of family in that case, or should that shift to Valani?
Thinking about the "Grandfather" title some more, maybe Pharasma should really be bumped up to "Grandmother" as well. It kind of has some symmetry if Erastil is "Grandfather": Pharasma ushers them into the world, Erastil keeps them while they are there, and then she takes them back.
In that case, maybe Gozreh would step into the "Mother" role?
And then there's the possible "new" gods that would come in through exposure to other cultures and eventual trade. Desna always seems to find her way everywhere, and could even play a part in luring individuals away from home to see the world outside. If this culture managed to avoid being hijacked by Rovagug between the emergence of the orcs during the Age of Darkness and their later isolation, maybe he would be introduced as a dark mirror of Gozreh or even Valani(a violent primal force, but one that focuses entirely on destruction and wrath without an eye for renewal).
While I'm still kind of doubting the odds of the Paizo crew going against their current "Orcs should be Always Evil" policy, I still hope someone over at their side looks at this stuff with approval.
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While I'm still kind of doubting the odds of the Paizo crew going against their current "Orcs should be Always Evil" policy, I still hope someone over at their side looks at this stuff with approval.
Chin up, this post gives a lot of hope. :)
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Praise the sun!
Praise the sun!
And respect the power of the Pouch. Respect it!
The Land of the Linnorm Kings book has all the info on Averaka and Orcmoot that's been revealed so far if you need it. :)
I'm honestly really curious/hopeful about this now. It seems like a place where this could work.
Shows me that I need to re-read my backlog of setting books before ordering new ones, but damn the lords and ladies at Paizo know how to produce constantly tempting stuff. Thanks for the hint, Mikaze, and can I just say that I wish my worldbuilding skills were a tenth as good as yours?
Makamu
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The bit about prizing half-orc 'strength' seems like a mechanical / thematic mixup, since half-orcs aren't any stronger than humans, in Pathfinder, unless one is considering their ferocity trait as a kind of 'strength.'
As written, half-orcs don't seem terribly desirable as children, with the changes to both the human and the half-orc, in Pathfinder.
As I've said before, my idea for beefing up a half-orc presence in Golarion would be to just make all Shoanti half-orcs (with the occasional adopted or 'throwback' full orc or full human), the result of Thassilonians creating a 'warrior race' to serve in their armies.
If orcs actually did have something admirable about them (such as a racial bonus to Wisdom, to go with their bonus to Strength, making them more feral and in tune with nature, respected, if not always admired, for their keen senses and powerful wills), then that flavor text might make a bit more sense. 'Strength' doesn't necessarily even have to mean the Strength score, if half-orcs have other 'strength-y' traits, like being able to hump more gear (+2 Str for encumbrance purposes) or a bonus to Con checks to avoid penalties from environmental extremes or hustling or whatever (like a half-strength Endurance feat, although I don't think it would be out of line to even give them Endurance as a bonus feat and be done with it, just like how Half-Elves get Skill Focus as a bonus feat and Humans can choose any feat as a bonus feat) or a version of the Dwarven 'Steady' trait that allows them to not be slowed by Medium armor (or only slowed down by 5 ft. instead of 10 ft. by Medium and Heavy armor?).
With both setting flavor and game mechanics stacked against them (or, at the least, not doing them any favors), the half-orc is pretty un-desirable, both in-setting and from a gameplay standpoint.
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The bit about prizing half-orc 'strength' seems like a mechanical / thematic mixup, since half-orcs aren't any stronger than humans, in Pathfinder, unless one is considering their ferocity trait as a kind of 'strength.'
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I really found your further comments regarding potential modifications for full orcs very interesting, but I fear I have to slightly disagree with the above statement.
Going back to the quote Mikaze posted, if we take into account that the statement is prefixed with the phrase 'certain cultures', I personally interpreted it to mean that, although most cultures have a negative bias against orcs, some (such as Averaka and the people of Flintyreach) have a positive bias. For me, this bias need not be based on "biological fact" (i.e. mechanical ability arrays) and can just be a perception based on their ancient mythology. Maybe the cultural structures on Flintyreach are descended from a subset of Ulfen culture that values strength very highly and does not value mental abilities? Maybe they consider orcs as blessed in the same way the Varisians consider aasimar good luck (a practice that alienated
Regarding your other points: I agree with you that a less strength-centred range of modifiers might be interesting and I think I'll houserule orcs as having +2 to strength and wisdom and -2 to charisma.
Makamu
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Posting on the move, but:
+2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 ___ seems to be a popular arrangement for rewired orcs. :) I go -2 INT for mine. Either way, it would help shore up the flavor of half-orcs being valued for whatever advantages they could bring to both parent races(strength for humans and heads full of new ideas for orcs?), if paired with some tweaks on the half-orcs themselves.
@Set, I can't express enough how much I wish that idea about the Shoanti was canon. :)
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Wondering some more:
Orcs of Golarion had a line about when the orcs first hit the surface while retreating from the dwarves, involving their warriors holding the dwarves back while their elderly and young fled to safety before them.
Coupling that with the fact that Rovagug worship only became a thing amongst orcs after humans introduced them to it, apparently orc culture was not completely horrible and irredeemable. Given that those orc refugees spread like wildfire across the surface during the Age of Darkness and a full cultural religious conersion tends to take a while, maybe a possible Averaka tribe isolated from the bad influence of Belkzen could possess a culture that evolved from their original Darklands culture minus the baggage the mainland orcs are saddled with?
So how does a culture that originated in the Darklands develop after generations upon generations of surface life in a place like Flintyreach?
I don't recall much information about how plentiful resources are on Flintyreach, but it seems like even a sparse environment would still be a step up from the living they had to eke out in the Darklands before being pushed out. I'm not sure exactly which way they might go with a shift from famine to feast, but maybe they could be driven to take care to not waste what they've been given by going into fortification mode early upon arrival.
That is, maybe a possible Flintyreach tribe arrived there because they never stopped retreating from the dwarves until they made it to this isolated island. And when they finally stopped, they immediately took defensive positions, leading to the development of a culture similar to those aforementioned "stonghold" orcs. And while the dwarves may or maynot have ever arrived during the dwarf-human pushback of the then dominant-orcs, it still served them well across the generations against future enemies as Ulfen culture developed and spread or possibly even against Mordant Spire elf incursions.
So what else of value could be ported over from their Darklands culture besides a mindfulness towards not depleting supplies?
Maybe some of the traditional subterranean fungal crops could have been carried over, eventually leading to some forests and valleys in Flintyreach looking quite unlike those on mainland Avistan? Or would those crops still be restricted to underground gardens even after all this time? On a similar note, what fauna might they have brought along with them?
If Flintyreach is volcanically active or if Valani worship is still a thing for them, perhaps ash-based tattooing, warpaint, and other forms of decor are big amongst them. If not though, maybe exotic and fantastic fungal crops could open up the possibility of bioluminescent dyes used for those purposes instead. Rolling that over some more in my head along with possible Benorus or Chucaro influence, perhaps long term effects of such use could include slight physiological changes, ranging from overcoming light sensitivity to luminescent irises(though this latter one sounds like something that could be reserved for shamans or anyone else who would tend to have more exposure to certain ritually-important fungi).
A "waste nothing" culture could also grab some of those desired Shoanti aesthetics. The Flintyreach orcs would remember the value of mined metals that they learned during the conflict with the dwarves, but they would also value furs, leather, and bone for all the practical uses they could serve. Kill a deer, you've got enough material to arm yourself. Kill a wyvern, you've got enough material to house your family.
This might even follow with their own dead if they go with sky burials: After the ravens have done their part, the most sacred bones are sanctified and put to rest while the others are put to use, possibly making cermonially important tools, weapons, or jewelry to be carried down the generations by their descendants. That way you could wind up with an orc warrior weilding the axe whose steel head her great-grandfather forged and whose handle is partially made of the intricately scrimshawed arm bones of her grandmother(who was herself a great warrior, so of course her strength of arms would be passed down to her children). Same thing for a crown of tusks of previous chieftains being worn by the current one, passing on the strength, ferocity, and wisdom to younger generations. And rather than being like the grisly trophies that the Belkzen orcs might take, these items are made with utmost respect and reverence to those who gave of themselves.
Now imagine if how current interactions between cultures could play off of that, with visitors to Averaka buying fake ancestral goods. Or even real ones that have been unjustly taken or unwisely sold. Now imagine the orcs/half-orcs that would want those back.
...
Man now I'm really hoping Averaka has non-evil orcs with their own culture that much more.
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Posting on the move, but:
+2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 ___ seems to be a popular arrangement for rewired orcs. :) I go -2 INT for mine. Either way, it would help shore up the flavor of half-orcs being valued for whatever advantages they could bring to both parent races(strength for humans and heads full of new ideas for orcs?), if paired with some tweaks on the half-orcs themselves.
@Set, I can't express enough how much I wish that idea about the Shoanti was canon. :)
My notion for a different sort of half-orc would give them a natural bite attack (similar to that of the tengu) and a choice of a +2 bonus to either Strength *or* Wisdom. (Less versatile than a human, who can put that bonus anywhere, but still more versatile than some other races, who are stuck with whatever the rest of their race gets. Some would inherit big orcish muscles, others orcish keen senses and primal wills and general stubborn-ness...)
+2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int would be a more traditional breakdown, similar to the +2/+2/-2 formula used for elves, dwarves, etc.
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My notion for a different sort of half-orc would give them a natural bite attack (similar to that of the tengu) and a choice of a +2 bonus to either Strength *or* Wisdom. (Less versatile than a human, who can put that bonus anywhere, but still more versatile than some other races, who are stuck with whatever the rest of their race gets. Some would inherit big orcish muscles, others orcish keen senses and primal wills and general stubborn-ness...)
+2 Str, +2 Wis and -2 Int would be a more traditional breakdown, similar to the +2/+2/-2 formula used for elves, dwarves, etc.
I wonder, has that selective floating +2 approach seen use with any races elsewhere? It seems a neat way to distinguish races without standardizing them.
Maybe an inherent +2 to Survival would bring orcs further in line too, making them more appealing to those ARG-mentioned humans?
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Thinking about aesthetics got me to thinking about how it could tie into how they view and revere their gods in a totemic fashion.
Each god/totem has a traditional set of orcish symbols. Flintyreach orcs might constantly have these symbols painted or tattooed onto them to varying degrees depending on how much they revere that deity and how much they're calling on them at the moment.
That is, an orc might always have some small symbols painted or tattooed on their body or face both to declare their patron totem and to call its attention and guidance to them.
Orcs doing specific things might temporarily paint more of that totem's or totems' set of symbols to represent that they're currently walking in the selected totem's path at the moment.
Orcs that are particularly devoted to a specific totem would probably get permanent tattoos, though to gain more symbols from the set would require accomplishing certain deeds.
Basically, an average orc might regularly mark themselves with the mountain-symbol of Valani, but if they go hunting they'll paint themselves with various symbols of Erastil, noting the particular skills they will need and possibly the prey they're after. The more important and signifigant the hunt, the more symbols are used, to the point that their face is framed by them. And dedicated hunters/Erastil worshippers would likely have many of those symbols as permanent tattoos.
Those same dedicated Erastil worshippers might in turn mark themselves with symbols of Calistria to show that they're out for vengeance up until the moment that the matter is settled. Such symbols are never hidden but shown plainly for all to see and identify, taking a straightforward approach to everything. (no sneaking up on people to exact your vengeance in this society, you have to let them know you're coming and why)
For the most part these markings might be mundane, but perhaps shamans could produce magical applications of this body decoration, working something like the old Shoanti war paint, though more common and less powerful? Maybe it might be something any orc in the tribe could do, given the right circumstances or blessings. Going to try and come up with a set of symbols for each god/totem when I get the chance next week.
Also thinking about specific hairstyles being associated with specific gods/totems too. Like the classic "orc topknot" being associated with Gorum/Brother Iron worshippers, letting it go uncut unless bested in battle. Shaved w/braid for Valani/Father Fire, uncut and wild for Gozreh/The World, and so forth. Might be overly specific for player choice, but it could make for some nice flavor to pull from. Gonna flesh that out along with the totemic body paint/tattoos.
Valani, Erastil, Calistria...
I keep wondering how certain ethnic cultures, especially isolated ones like Flintyreach/Averaka, would syncretically adapt the Gods to match their own culture. Like Calistria... Averaka orcs would probably not consider her vindictiveness as harshly as humans might, but more as a logical and well-established survival trait of not being weak to those that have harmed/would harm you. But I can't imagine they'd depict her as elven--"Ewww, yuck!"--maybe more as a human or half-orc (maybe?) with more lush features and predominant child-bearing/-rearing characteristics. The few half-orcs that cling to an elven depiction would likely be seen as deviants and shamed as "elf lovers" (almost as bad as a "dwarf lover"--puke!).
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Taking a step past tattoos into ritual scarification, could be one way to differentiate them from the plethora of Golarion cultures that already embrace tattoos (such as Varisians and Shoanti).
Poke some holes, smear in some ash, and you've got neat dark bumps and perhaps lines, forming whatever designs fit the theme. Make it ash from a prey creature, or a humanoid, or even an ancestor, and there could be a little necromantic resonance there, with the 'magic scar' made from the ash of prey target (animal, humanoid, whatever) being able to be invoked to grant a short term weak variation on a favored enemy bonus by tying the scar-bearers spirit to that of the creature type that provided the ash, giving them some mild insights.
Weak versions would have no such effect, merely serving as a necessary focus for a shaman to use actual magic to place a similar effect on someone with a spell or class ability (or by 'awakening' the scar with real magic ash he's created via Craft Wondrous Item). More powerful versions, made by those same shamen, would be 'wondrous items' themselves and activate-able by the scar-bearer, perhaps once (and needing to be recharged by the shaman, with costs similar to a potion), or multiple times, for a more expensive treatment (reserved for chieftains and the like).
Instead of a necromantic effect, a different effect could be transmutation based, and, instead of bonuses to attack / understand a creature, the scarred warrior might gain bonuses similar to those of the creature itself (a la Beast Shape), using the ash of the creature within the scars as a focus (or the bits of antler, talon or fang piercing his skin, etc. in any case inserting some of a creature type into his flesh to absorb it's properties).
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@Ambrosia: Yeah, definitely have an orcish vision of Calistria for these folks rather than elven. Not sure just how they would react to others pointing out her elvish origins, but that sounds on the money.
And that approach to Calistrian revenge is exactly what I had in mind. :)
@Set: The scarification approach sounds spot on too. Perhaps different layers of marking could signify different levels of reverence to certain totems/gods... Like:
Scarification marks - Primary totem/deity
Tattoos - Secondary patron totems
Paint - Situational totem invocation
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Thinking further on how Valani could be repurposed for Flintyreach and orcs despite his Polynesian roots, I wonder if mostly replacing the lava aspects with steam/hot springs in what's attributed to him might do the trick. It certainly seems the right region for it, and the volcanic aspects could simply be downplayed rather than forgotten, to go with the area's less violently active(but still active) state.
That may hurt his fire imagery though, unless it's emphasized that the "fire under the mountain" is his work/domain.
Also wondering if, rather than presenting Valani and Erastil as Father and Gradnfather in the local pantheon, they might be better represented as brothers and equals. They're both animal-headed gods that care for their children in differing ways. Any number of folk tales could come out of that arrangement, though it should probably be more nuanced than "responsible sibling(Erastil) and irresponsible sibling(Valani)". Could possibly build up a dichotomy between them, with one knowing when to settle down and grow some roots and the other knowing when to pull out and start anew.
Really have come to hoping that Valani can serve as an appropriate Empyreal Lord patron for non-evil orcs in general, kind of like how Black Butterfly really seems to fit the bill for drow.
Fandarra could be a neat figure to add into that as a triune. She would certainly add a different primal edge to them than what Valani brings to the table at the very least. But I'm not really sure how she could be integrated into the culture naturally, considering she's primarily a giant god.