+1 to existing spellcaster question


Rules Questions


our group is playing through rappan athuk, and one of our players is looking into going into the justicar prestige class included in the bonus material.

the question is this: you only need 3 lvls of paladin to go into the class which provides full spellcaster progression. since he doesnt currently have spells does he gain the benefit of this progression?

i say yes he should, others say that since he isnt currently a spellcaster there is nothing to gain.


Until level 4 of Paladin, he has no caster level. He doesn't have a CL of 0, he doesn't have any CL, so a prestige class, per RAW, cannot progress spellcasting he doesn't have.

That said, I wouldn't have any issue with allowing it anyway, as long as being able to cast divine spells in the first place isn't a prerequisite for the PrC.


I would say yes, but I cannot be sure - I just spent the last half hour combing through my Rappan Athuk stuff. I can't find Justicar PrC mentioned anywhere. I pledged the maximum on the Kickstarter and I don't have anything with this PrC in it.

Can you provide a link? Or if it's not online, how about a book title and page number?

However, if I use wording I find in other PrCs, it becomes fairly clear that the character is treated (regarding spells per day) as if he had gained a level in the base class. For example, from the Core Rulebook:

"At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

Note that it doesn't say anything like "gains a level of an existing spellcasting ability". It only says "gained a level in a class".

So based on this, there is no need to have the ability to cast spells in this wording. The eldritch knight gains new spells per day just as if he went up a level in his previous arcane class.

If we apply that wording to Justicars and Paladins, assuming a 3rd level paladin becomes a Justicar and gains "+1 level of an existing class", I would say that the right thing to do is treat the spellcasting ability as if this character were a 4th level paladin - as if he gained a level of paladin.

That seems to be exactly what the wording says to do (although I'm assuming the Justicar class' wording is the same as other classes such as the eldritch knight I quoted).


ill need to double check which book it is, i believe it was one of the supplemental books that they released, though it may not have been a part of the kickstarter offerings.


DM_Blake wrote:

I would say yes, but I cannot be sure - I just spent the last half hour combing through my Rappan Athuk stuff. I can't find Justicar PrC mentioned anywhere. I pledged the maximum on the Kickstarter and I don't have anything with this PrC in it.

Can you provide a link? Or if it's not online, how about a book title and page number?

However, if I use wording I find in other PrCs, it becomes fairly clear that the character is treated (regarding spells per day) as if he had gained a level in the base class. For example, from the Core Rulebook:

"At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class."

Note that it doesn't say anything like "gains a level of an existing spellcasting ability". It only says "gained a level in a class".

So based on this, there is no need to have the ability to cast spells in this wording. The eldritch knight gains new spells per day just as if he went up a level in his previous arcane class.

If we apply that wording to Justicars and Paladins, assuming a 3rd level paladin becomes a Justicar and gains "+1 level of an existing class", I would say that the right thing to do is treat the spellcasting ability as if this character were a 4th level paladin - as if he gained a level of paladin.

That seems to be exactly what the wording says to do (although I'm assuming the Justicar class' wording is the same as other classes such as the eldritch knight I quoted).

Yes this. If the Justicar PrC is worded like all the other "+1 existing" PrCs. Then a 3rd level paladin who gains this PrC as their 4th character level would cast spells as a 4th level Paladin.


Classes - Paladin wrote:

Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance...

...Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.

At 4th level, a Paladin has a CL of 1. If he takes 3 levels in Paladin and then 1 level in this PrC, he gains +1 in a spellcasting class. But he isn't a spellcasting class. The Spells class feature for a Paladin does not activate until 4th level, and you do not have a particular class feature until you actually reach the level where the class grants it.

So from the +1 spellcasting feature of the PrC he would gain . . . nothing. Because he isn't a caster yet.

If he takes a 4th level in Paladin, then his 5th level in the PrC, he would effectively cast as a 5th level Paladin with a CL of 2 - (Paladin lvl - 3) + 1.


Xaratherus wrote:
Classes - Paladin wrote:

Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance...

...Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.

At 4th level, a Paladin has a CL of 1. If he takes 3 levels in Paladin and then 1 level in this PrC, he gains +1 in a spellcasting class. But he isn't a spellcasting class. The Spells class feature for a Paladin does not activate until 4th level, and you do not have a particular class feature until you actually reach the level where the class grants it.

So from the +1 spellcasting feature of the PrC he would gain . . . nothing. Because he isn't a caster yet.

If he takes a 4th level in Paladin, then his 5th level in the PrC, he would effectively cast as a 5th level Paladin with a CL of 2 - (Paladin lvl - 3) + 1.

Paladin IS a spellcasting class though.

If he gets +1 spellcasting class, adds that to the 3 he already has, he is 4 total. At 4th, the actual ability to cast those spells is unlocked.

Paladins can use wands, after all, even at level 1. They're spellcasters, just not very powerful ones.


Remy Balster wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
Classes - Paladin wrote:

Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance...

...Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.

At 4th level, a Paladin has a CL of 1. If he takes 3 levels in Paladin and then 1 level in this PrC, he gains +1 in a spellcasting class. But he isn't a spellcasting class. The Spells class feature for a Paladin does not activate until 4th level, and you do not have a particular class feature until you actually reach the level where the class grants it.

So from the +1 spellcasting feature of the PrC he would gain . . . nothing. Because he isn't a caster yet.

If he takes a 4th level in Paladin, then his 5th level in the PrC, he would effectively cast as a 5th level Paladin with a CL of 2 - (Paladin lvl - 3) + 1.

Paladin IS a spellcasting class though.

If he gets +1 spellcasting class, adds that to the 3 he already has, he is 4 total. At 4th, the actual ability to cast those spells is unlocked.

Paladins can use wands, after all, even at level 1. They're spellcasters, just not very powerful ones.

Paladins can use wands because it specifically spells that out as an exception. They can't use scrolls though. I don't know that I consider that a hugely strong argument.

But it's probably irrelevant: Thinking back to the recent ruling on Mystic Theurge and bloodline spells, you are probably correct - a PrC specifically advances the Spells section of the class (if nothing else), so he probably does get it. I was confusing meeting prerequisites with the actual ability advancement.

He would still only count as CL 2 though.


It'd be CL 1.


The book it is coming out of is "stoneheart valley"

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