Mystic Theurge w / Improved Caster level


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Howdy. I was wondering if the addition of the optional feat, Improved Caster Level, from the Complete Advanced Feats guide changes the general consensus on the Mystic Theurge not really being worth going that route.

The feat in question improves a character's caster level by +4, up to character level. So, while you'll still be a bit behind on getting new spells, and increases on the number of spells per day, if you take the feat at first level, you'll never be behind in caster level.

I really like the idea of casting both cleric and wizard spells, and plan to take the class just for cool factor. I'm curious though on the opinions of others on the board of the prestige class with this additional 3rd party feat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rocky Williams 530 wrote:

Howdy. I was wondering if the addition of the optional feat, Improved Caster Level, from the Complete Advanced Feats guide changes the general consensus on the Mystic Theurge not really being worth going that route.

It's not a "general consensus", it's a vocal opinion from a few folks who gauge things on attaining ultimate caster level and/or a dominating play style. The Mystic Theurge is for a different style of play concentrating on a broader base and increased spell capacity of lower level magic. In a group that works together the MT can be an essential glue. If you're looking to cover yourself in superstar glory, this is probably not the path for you.


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Most people don't allow 3rd party feats in their games. However, the recent changes to SLAs make it possible to enter MT as early as level 4, and the inclusion of Eclectic/Esoteric Training makes it possible to still end up with double 9 casting.

Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.

Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.

So a Cleric 2/Wiz 1/MT 10/Cleric 4/Wiz 3 (or some other combination) would be a 17/17th level caster at 20 that casts as a 17/19th level caster. In fact they'd still get 9th level casting in one class at 17 and the other at 20, pending how they played it.

So you really don't need to stray any further than Inner Sea Magic to get it done.


Wow. That's neat. Unfortunately, we don't have Inner Sea Magic, and my GM probably won't allow it even if it's on the Pathfinder SRD site. We don't use any kind of fame system, and he doesn't allow traits either. We run in a modified Forgotten Realms campaign so, anything that requires a ton of flavor modification to work in the Realms doesn't get ported over usually.


Doesn't seem that hard to me to say there's an arcane college there. Especially since if he's allowing 3rd party stuff and/or trying to shoehorn PF into Forgotten Realms you've already gone off the rails, lol.
If he's allowing 3.5 stuff you can pull it off with Practiced Caster.

I must say 2 things though: One, that feat is one of the most broken 3rd party feats I've ever read, and that's saying something. It's like taking Magical Knack *twice*, AND it's effects stack???

The other thing is increasing caster level (like Magical Knack) doesn't give you new spells or abilities unless expressly stated like it does with Eclectic/Esoteric training. So let's say you took Magical Knack, and that feat twice. then you went Wizard 1, Fighter 10. you'd cast level 1 spells with the power of a level 11 Wizard.


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The whole problem with the class is its absolutely draconian entry-requirements. It's fine if you take it to maturity at around the 15th level, but the problem is that it's a complete and total mess if you're playing through a low-level game. You'll actually have fewer spell slots until you reach the 8th character level, forget about caster level or MAD complications. Even then, you're paying through the nose for versatility. In a game that begins around level 12 and is going to go to level 20, Mystic Theurge is a totally viable character choice. In a game that's beginning at level 1 and will run until level 8, you're going to be very unhappy with this path.

As mentioned, there is a new ruling that allows for early qualifications for these kinds of prestige classes. It vastly improves the Mystic Theurge to the point at which it's actually an incredibly powerful choice. If your GM allows these qualification options, then you'll be just fine.

Quote:
Wow. That's neat. Unfortunately, we don't have Inner Sea Magic, and my GM probably won't allow it even if it's on the Pathfinder SRD site. We don't use any kind of fame system, and he doesn't allow traits either.

The Magical Knack trait is so important for a mystic theurge that you'll want to spend a feat to get it if your GM isn't allowing traits. If your GM sticks to Core/APG/UM/UC then there aren't a lot of good feats for a mystic theurge.


With the feat I mentioned in my first post, I'm curious as to how Magical Knack is so important. It adds a +2 to your caster level, up to your character level, in one class. The feat mentioned in the third party book, as written, adds +4 to your caster level, up to your character level, in all casting classes. Even if my GM rules that it to only work on one class per taking, it's still better than magical knack. Unless I'm missing something.


Rocky Williams 530 wrote:
With the feat I mentioned in my first post, I'm curious as to how Magical Knack is so important. It adds a +2 to your caster level, up to your character level, in one class. The feat mentioned in the third party book, as written, adds +4 to your caster level, up to your character level, in all casting classes. Even if my GM rules that it to only work on one class per taking, it's still better than magical knack. Unless I'm missing something.

I think we all overlooked that feat since it's 3rd party and massively broken. Even if you DM allows it you should take magical knack since it's a trait, not a feat and you'd have +6 to caster level in one of your classes, which isn't all bad.


Dasrak wrote:


The Magical Knack trait is so important for a mystic theurge that you'll want to spend a feat to get it if your GM isn't allowing traits. If your GM sticks to Core/APG/UM/UC then there aren't a lot of good feats for a mystic theurge.

Crafting feats are better than anything, really


In my home game, I've always allowed the 3.5 feat Practiced Spellcaster from Complete Arcane, which does help encourage multiclassing with spellcasting classes. We have an arcane trickster in the party, and this feat really does increase her effectiveness.

I've always considered the Mystic Theurge to be a bit underpowered in comparison to other character classes without this feat, but I think its viable with it.

It does depend on the play style if the group. If your group plays to "system mastery," and you're concerned with calculating your "damage per round," a mystic theurge probably isn't for your group.

Liberty's Edge

Why don't you post the text of the feat here so we can read exactly what it does?


Improved Caster Level

Quote:

Prerequisite: Ability to cast spells.

Benefit: Your effective caster level in all spellcasting classes is increased by 4, but no higher than your character level.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times; its effects stack.

I currently make use of this feat with my Sorcerer 4 / Druid 1, going into Mystic Theurge. Since we don't accept the ruling on spell-like abilities meeting casting requirements (only requirements for mimicking a specific spell, circa 3.5 rules), the ICL feat really helps out with casting.

The character runs in a 3-person party, filling both the arcane and divine casting roles. High OP is not part of the equation, though I took some pains to make sure that we made an effective group. Wildblooded Fey (Sylvan) Sorcerer to get an animal companion, Boon Companion feat to keep its level high enough to be relevant, Experimental Wordcasting so get bonus damage spells when needed (since my sorcerer spells are all utility, and infernal healing), Familiar with Tattoo-ed sorcerer, relying on wands and potions for now for backup healing, craft magical tattoos for shenanigans, and other things.

Team is:
Fighter - Human with adopted elven racial trait for elven courtblade prof and he crits a lot.
Rogue - Tiefling with tail racial. He does rogue stuff and is pretty good at it too. His roleplay is to die for.
Sorcerer/Druid - Human, jack of all trades, really. I am the most experienced player of casting characters in the group. I bring the nuke when the nuke is needed. Otherwise, I hang back and throw cantrips or wand charges at the enemies while the animal companion owns.


That feat seems overpowered to me.


I've always liked multi-class options, though Mystic Theurge is a bit lack-luster for many levels. Getting into it at level 4 or 5 is what the class needs to work well without other changes to it's features.

I'm curious, though -- with a racial option, half-elves can cast Darkness as a spell-like ability. Since its on the cleric and wizard/sorc spell list, do you get to pick which type it is?

Also, concerning feats, if 3.5 is allowed, Practiced Caster is very necessary for a multi-class casters. With pure Pathfinder, you'll have Magical Knack (not counting the fame-related feats). However, if my memory of the Advanced Players Guide serves, there's nothing that stops you from taking the same same trait twice -- you just can't stack the bonuses. So, unless it was updated elsewhere, this allows you to take Magical Knack for both your Arcane and Divine casting classes to help make up for your lower overall caster level (and negate it for many level if you get into MT early enough).


Hmm, I don't believe increasing your caster level with a feat or trait gives you extra spells per day or access to higher level spells, it just does things like improve your chance to penetrate SR or determine the duration of your spells.


Increasing your caster level doesn't give new spell levels, but it is still important, especially at low levels. You have to use racial features or domain powers to get into the MT class early, having the +2 caster levels means that if you go Cleric 3/Sorcerer 1/MT 1, the Sorcerer spells you do have are much more better than what they would be otherwise -- at that point, you're literally doubling their effectiveness based on caster level (4 instead of 2).


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Objulen wrote:
there's nothing that stops you from taking the same same trait twice

You can't take two traits of the same category, which means that you certainly can't take the same one twice.

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