Dragon Disciple / Sorceror help for a very new player


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I know it is not optimal, but if I take a bizzaro prestige class like Dragon Disciple, I just have to take all the levels in it that I can possibly get.

I mean, your changing into a dragon! What could possibly be kooler than that?


Sorcerer 11/Dragon Disciple 8/Monk 1 is a pretty good combination, but make sure you're going all the way to level 20 for this build. Otherwise I think you're worrying about caster levels that may never happen regardless.

For example, I only went to Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Paladin 2 because I knew the game was going to 17th level at maximum. Normally the last 2 levels of Dragon Disciple are not worth it, but the only way I could get much higher caster level was to ditch Paladin and go more Sorcerer (Sorcerer 9/Dragon Disciple 8). The main difference here is the addition of 7th level spells. However, this was weighed against a lower base attack bonus, worse saves, the loss of Smite, and I would actually have to use my spells per day to cast Form of the Dragon II instead of using my 2/day.

To me, a few 7th level spells per day were not worth that. To others they might be. The build you are looking at for monk is trying to squeeze those last spell levels out. Just make sure you're going to level 20 or you may have made a choice you don't get to play with.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I know it is not optimal, but if I take a bizzaro prestige class like Dragon Disciple, I just have to take all the levels in it that I can possibly get.

I mean, your changing into a dragon! What could possibly be kooler than that?

Hm lets see. Stoping time, throwing freaking meteors from you hands? No, to mainstream. Lets make my demi-plane and go sit and think for a while...

Not to mention that when you have a couple FotD2 spell-likes I have Shapechange! Really, the last two lvls are for martial classes that went Martial 4/ Sorc 1/DD for the stats bonuses and the like. When you can choose 9th lvl spells or wings in your back there is just no question.


GrenMeera wrote:

Sorcerer 11/Dragon Disciple 8/Monk 1 is a pretty good combination, but make sure you're going all the way to level 20 for this build. Otherwise I think you're worrying about caster levels that may never happen regardless.

For example, I only went to Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Paladin 2 because I knew the game was going to 17th level at maximum. Normally the last 2 levels of Dragon Disciple are not worth it, but the only way I could get much higher caster level was to ditch Paladin and go more Sorcerer (Sorcerer 9/Dragon Disciple 8). The main difference here is the addition of 7th level spells. However, this was weighed against a lower base attack bonus, worse saves, the loss of Smite, and I would actually have to use my spells per day to cast Form of the Dragon II instead of using my 2/day.

To me, a few 7th level spells per day were not worth that. To others they might be. The build you are looking at for monk is trying to squeeze those last spell levels out. Just make sure you're going to level 20 or you may have made a choice you don't get to play with.

I guess you don't look the build with the right angle. You see, it is not just the high lvl spells, it is the spell progression that gets gimped with too many martial lvl dips. By dipping only 1 lvl in martial before getting into DD you can have Alter self by 4th lvl. With 2lvl dip like the Paladin one, you don't have access to it until the 6th lvl. Check the bonuses that you can have if you transform into a Troglodyte and tell me who is going to be the best melee fighter at 5th lvl. With a monk dip, in the first 7 lvls you have Sorc 4 / Monk 1/ DD2. This means:

1 Improved Initative, Toughness (whatever)
2
3 Weapon Focus (Claws)
4
5 IUS, Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity
6
7 Feral Combat training (Claws), Power Attack

This will let charge and deal damage with 1,5 STr and have a full attack routine of Claw/Claw/Bite with half your Str bonus damage on your claws after all the other modifiers. You can use alter self for natural armor bonuses on top of that and at the next lvl you have access to beast shape and leopard as a result, which adds pounce and rake to the mix.

My point is that you do not struggle for caster lvls just for the 9th lvl spells, you want them because the sooner you take the high lvl spells the stronger you become.


I've got a Sorc6/DD7, where I play a support caster. This is a RotR campaign with (high) rolled stats. Having the DD levels bulks me up if we're in combats where leakers get through the front line, but my primary role is magical support & blasting, not melee.

My goal is Sorc12/DD8, to give access to 9th level spells. IMO the DD capstone isn't worth that last missed level of spell progression - since I'm focused on being a primary spell caster. It sounds like your group will always have several melee focused members. So you might be better off being on casting. From a min-max perspective, being a pure Sorcerer is probably a better caster option than Sorc/DD, but Sorc/DD is a lot of fun with great flavor.

I agree that Magical Knack is a really strong, almost necessary Trait - so much so that I took Additional Traits at 11th to get it. One other powerful option (for any Sorcerer) in the Advanced Player's Guide is the Human Racial Alternate Favored Class bonus:
"Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."

You won't get Favored Class bonus for DD levels, but with this you can still pack some decent flexibility into your build given the non-DD levels.


XMorsX wrote:
Check the bonuses that you can have if you transform into a Troglodyte and tell me who is going to be the best melee fighter at 5th lvl.

Yes, but you'll have a lower base attack bonus and a slightly frustrating progression of it as well. :) All of these options work and as I said I actually like the monk dip variant as well.

Some of these builds have different levels where they shine and come into their own, but they all get there and do it without any major struggle levels.

Comparing a Trog attack of
claw/claw/bite (+8/+8/+8) (1d4+5) BAB: 3, Strength mod: +5
(12.375 dpr Average CR5 AC of 18)
vs a smite attack
claw/claw (+11/+11) (1d4+8,1d4+6) BAB: 3, Strength mod: +4, Smite Target Charisma mod: +4
(13.3 dpr Average CR5 AC of 18)

The results depend upon AC and smite type. Both results vary depending upon fights per day and resource allocation as well. They all work and each is fun in it's own way. ^.^

By the way, I do like your 7th level feat progression. Basically what I would have done with those classes.


It is true that every combination shines at its own lvls. Smite is awesome no doubt about that. With 2 lvls of paladin though you will just not have enough of it. One of my players started as a paladin for going eventually DD. At his 5th lvl he was frustated with the low spellcasting progression and simultaneously amazed from the paladin class features that he dropped the concept and made a pure paladin instead. This is my experience.


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Of note is new errata from ultimate combat on feral combat training. the monk's unarmed dice buffs now apply via that. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rbe)
So if you have an extra slot for that cape you could squeeze out a litte damage (though generall I doubt that it's worth it).
At the least, you might get 1d6 claws earlier, though not exactly a big deal there.
The FAQ isn't super clear, so I'm not sure if you replace the damage or just take the boosts. Off hand I'd guess boosts just because they're increases. but that's pretty debatable.
Also, monk's unarmed thing says you apply full str to each hit no offhand, so in theory that will apply to claws so you get full str on each hit from attacks effected by feral combat training.
( "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.")
12/8 is a good balance for a tough caster, one dip in monk makes a pretty decent "gish" I think.

So in theory at least if I"m not messing this up (which I totally can)
You start off a full attack: bite, claw claw.. if you had feral combat training in bites and claws (kind of heavy feat investment.. I'd probalby just do claws (two hits vs 1 bite) if I was mainly caster.
bite: 1.5str from DD another 1.5 from dragon style (first hit of a round if you miss this will go to a claw hit) and i think another .5 from dragon ferocity total=3.5str ?
claws 1.5 str on each hit


Oops, I gave the Sorcerer 4/Monk 1 troglodyte full attack too much BAB.

It should be:
claw/claw/bite (+7/+7/+7) (1d4+5) BAB: 2, Strength mod: +5
(11.25 dpr Average CR5 AC of 18)

XMorsX wrote:
Smite is awesome no doubt about that. With 2 lvls of paladin though you will just not have enough of it.

Well it's all about flavor and what you prefer though, since casters already have a great deal of daily resource management. I mean, you save your Mage's Disjunction casts for the BBEG instead of wasting all your 9th level slots on his minions. The same is true for Smite.

XMorsX wrote:
One of my players started as a paladin for going eventually DD. At his 5th lvl he was frustated with the low spellcasting progression and simultaneously amazed from the paladin class features that he dropped the concept and made a pure paladin instead.

Yeah I'd probably feel the same way. 5 levels of Paladin is not a great spot to be in. I usually would only do a 2 level dip and not worry about my pathetic/useless channeling or spellcasting. That level of spellcasting just does not have longevity.

Zwordsman wrote:
Of note is new errata from ultimate combat on feral combat training.

It's a great errata, but if I were focusing on Feral Combat Training I'd have much more than simply a monk dip. Flurry would quickly become a poor option as only a level 1 Monk compared to Form of the Dragon which can grant you Claw/Claw/Bite/Wing/Wing/Tail, making Feral Combat Training moot.

If I were focusing on Feral Combat Training, I'd probably only do a Dragon Disciple dip to 4th level to maintain decent casting and get the strength modifiers, then put a lot more levels in Monk.


I didn said it right, he was a 4 lvl character, 2lvl Paladin / 2lvl Sorcerer.

Feral Combat Training is not about flurry, with MoMS you trade flurry for the ability to combine many styles and take style feats as bonus feats that ignore prereqs. With FCT you can aplly the bonuses that style feats grant to your unarmed attacks to your natural attacks instead. In our case, dragon style gives bonus damage to unarmed strikes egual to half your Str mod and bonus to charge damage equal to double your Str. These bonuses are being transfered to every natural weapon you have Weapon Focus and FCT.


XMorsX wrote:
In our case, dragon style gives bonus damage to unarmed strikes egual to half your Str mod and bonus to charge damage equal to double your Str

Oooh, I like that option. I may consider making a build of that some time.


haven't played it but mine is shaping nicely for a gdecent mix


Ok, I've got the Advanced Player's guide now. In what book is the Multiattack feat?

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