Question on Trox as PCs stat block in Bestiary 4


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

Hey everyone,
I was planning on playing a Trox barbarian in an upcoming campaign setting to break away from usually playing the party's face character. However, I noticed that the ability scores mentioned in the newest bestiary only give them the scores from their Paragon and Advanced Strength racial traits (from the ARG), and the large racial trait doesn't say anything about ability score changes, but according to the ARG still costs them 7 RP. I'm a little confused on whether or not I should be getting another 2 Strength, -2 Dex, -1 Atk, and reach of 5 in addition to the CMB/D, AC, and Stealth modifiers that are listed.

Thanks in advance for the help.


There are actually a number of disagreements between the Bestiary and the Advanced Race Guide where Trox are concerned.

Large Size: the Bestiary text doesn't spell out all the modifiers, though it does apply them all in the stat block.

Reach: the Bestiary says 10' reach, but the ARG doesn't show the extra RP spent to increase their reach so it is only 5'

Base speed: the Bestiary lists speed of 40', but Trox have 30' speed in the ARG

Ability Scores: as you point out, the Bestiary entry should have another +2 Strength and -2 Dexterity

Now then, since all the differences I notices are pointed out, I'd like to give my answer as to what to do:

Use the ARG version - that book is designed around the idea that players will be making characters using the information inside it, the Bestiary is not (at least not to the same degree).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

thenobledrake wrote:

Base speed: the Bestiary lists speed of 40', but Trox have 30' speed in the ARG

Ability Scores: as you point out, the Bestiary entry should have another +2 Strength and -2 Dexterity

The B4 entry is the newest, and should be considered errata to the ARG.

The speed is 30 in B4, you are missing that the PC is a Barbarian with +10 speed.

You should not be adding +2 STR/-2 DEX due to Medium to Large. That is only for size changing effects.

Looking at the B4 entry, I don't see any problem and I'm having trouble seeing where it is different than the ARG. Note: It isn't in size, reach, stats, or speed.


You are right, I missed that the Bestiary Trox is a Barbarian.

As to the +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, the ARG specifically includes those modifiers as part of the Large size option.

Also, on the topic of Reach - the ARG gives the 7 RP Large size option a space of 10', but only 5' reach, and then makes Reach a 1 RP option in the Advanced category of Offense Racial Traits... and it also does not list having purchased that option in the Trox breakdown of purchased options.

Last, but not least, do you have a source to sight that explains Paizo using a standing "newer book is correct no matter the conflict" policy?

I wouldn't exactly be surprised if that is the case, but I also don't expect any sort of "auto-trump" from a company, like Paizo, that is apt to admit and correct their errors - it seems more logical, to me, to err in favor of the older source for a rule because it has had more time for errata or FAQ while the brand-new book could be home to what looks like a change to a rule but is really just a typo/mistake/trick of editing accidentally cutting a sentence.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

thenobledrake wrote:
it seems more logical, to me, to err in favor of the older source

Your logic is the exact opposite of mine. It seems to me that being published in a newer book, it is defacto errata. I can't imagine a world where the person responsible for putting Trox in B4 didn't look at the ARG. If he looked at the ARG and deviated, I would imagine it was deliberate.

Also, remember that the "As Characters" section doesn't always model the Stat block. So it might be that there is deliberate changes if used as a Character for balance reasons.


James Risner wrote:
Also, remember that the "As Characters" section doesn't always model the Stat block.

They always do exactly model the Statblock, in my experience, as long as one remembers to account for the fact that the statblock includes the ability score modifiers gained from having a class as well as potential other modifiers gained from the specific class in question (such as a barbarian's speed).

After all, the "As Characters" sections are primarily there for GMs to create NPCs with a different class than the one presented in the statblock, so there wouldn't be any reason for it to produce a different result.

With the caveat that I don't yet have Bestiary 4, so in this particular case it might be different.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Are wrote:
They always do exactly model the Statblock,

Ogre and Centaur don't model the ARG info, and neither has Class levels. You can get close by using Elite array with Ogre, but neither work out with Elite or NPC array.


You said the "As Characters" sections don't always model the Statblock, which is what I replied to. The fact that the Bestiary versions and the ARG versions aren't identical is a different issue.

[Edit: It's the issue in this thread, of course, but the specific part of your post that I replied to didn't seem to be related to the ARG.]


James Risner wrote:
thenobledrake wrote:
it seems more logical, to me, to err in favor of the older source

Your logic is the exact opposite of mine. It seems to me that being published in a newer book, it is defacto errata. I can't imagine a world where the person responsible for putting Trox in B4 didn't look at the ARG. If he looked at the ARG and deviated, I would imagine it was deliberate.

Also, remember that the "As Characters" section doesn't always model the Stat block. So it might be that there is deliberate changes if used as a Character for balance reasons.

So now, rather than a single case of mistake (or deliberate "this is for monsters and NPCs so it doesn't matter if its perfectly accurate), we have two cases of deliberate change - one to make the Trox "as characters" entry differ from their ARG write-up, and the second to then make the Statblock include features the "as characters" entry doesn't.

I prefer the simpler explanation, but I suppose if we wait patiently and hit the FAQ button enough times, someone might actually come along and clear this up.

The Exchange

Something else I noticed was that there are no age categories for a Trox. Given that it's a Large humanoid insect, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they have a different lifespan than humans. It isn't included, however, and I don't know where that leaves me really. Is it assumed that they have a human lifespan, or do I get to make something up?

Sovereign Court

James Risner wrote:
thenobledrake wrote:
it seems more logical, to me, to err in favor of the older source
Your logic is the exact opposite of mine. It seems to me that being published in a newer book, it is defacto errata. I can't imagine a world where the person responsible for putting Trox in B4 didn't look at the ARG. If he looked at the ARG and deviated, I would imagine it was deliberate.

What about the world where PFS decided to use the older scorpion whip in the Adventurer's Armory instead of the newer one in Ultimate Equipment?

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Ascalaphus wrote:
What about the world where PFS decided to use the older scorpion whip in the Adventurer's Armory instead of the newer one in Ultimate Equipment?

PFS is effectively a GM and GM's have Rule 0 to allow them to do as they wish.

Sovereign Court

James Risner wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
What about the world where PFS decided to use the older scorpion whip in the Adventurer's Armory instead of the newer one in Ultimate Equipment?
PFS is effectively a GM and GM's have Rule 0 to allow them to do as they wish.

On the other hand, the PFS team said they'd come to that conclusion after talking it over with the PDT.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Then that shouldn't be a "default" and should be considered an outlier.

Sovereign Court

You said you couldn't imagine a world where any newer print was "wrong". I showed you an example where it happened.

I'm not saying it's common, but it does happen occasionally.

Also, it's probably more likely to happen if a thing is republished in a different kind of book, like going from AA to UE or from ARG to Bestiary.

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