DrDeth |
10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK, since the other thread was closed as the question was nebulous let me restate what I think is the question.
A character has X attacks due to whatever combo of claws, weapons, bites, headbutts, etc.
He gains two vestigial arms thru the Alchemist Discovery.
Does he now still have X attacks or X+2 attacks?
In other words, can the vestigial arms discovery give you more attacks than you would have without the discovery? The debate seems to hinge on the term “extra attacks” as in ‘what is EXTRA”?
Clearly the discovery can give you more OPTIONS for your available attacks, yes. And certainly, like if you have TWF but want a shield, since Vestigial arm allows you to use a shield and also TWF there is sort of an 'extra' attack in there.
Or, if you now put claws on your vestigial arms- does that give you two MORE claw attacks or just the option to use claws or weapons?
My thought is that the answer is No, and two devs have weighed in and it seems they agree, but there’s no FAQ. the debate rages hotly. This is truely a FAQ. So, please Pathfinder Design Team – clarify this with a FAQ.
Thank you.
The Thing from Beyond the Edge |
From the prd
Vestigial Arm discovery
Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
So, no new attacks and no new actions as the discovery explicitly states so in that regard.
Shield use while attacking with two weapons seems legit as no new attacks (you can already make two weapon attacks, just not with a shield with only two arms) are added and no new actions are added.
ArmouredMonk13 |
The question isn't as much "Can vestigial arms grant extra attacks" because the answer is no. The question is closer to "How many attacks can I have with Vestigial Arms". For instance, a Tengu with TWF and IUS at level 1 can have 5 attacks (Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite), but if the same Tengu had 2 additional arms to hold daggers, he could theoretically do Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite in a full attack. But then people say no because the dagger/dagger/claw/claw/bite is somehow more attacks than kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.
lemeres |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The question isn't as much "Can vestigial arms grant extra attacks" because the answer is no. The question is closer to "How many attacks can I have with Vestigial Arms". For instance, a Tengu with TWF and IUS at level 1 can have 5 attacks (Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite), but if the same Tengu had 2 additional arms to hold daggers, he could theoretically do Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite in a full attack. But then people say no because the dagger/dagger/claw/claw/bite is somehow more attacks than kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.
The problem there is whether you deal with a race with its own natural claws, and thus they would try to do bite/claw/claw/claw/claw/. That is a very different argument. As you read on, you can start to see the apples and oranges that are being mixed with that kicking build (which the design team disapproves of any way from what I remember)
You see, with kick/kick/bite/claw/claw/, you are dealing with the penalties of TWF as well as the natural weapons becoming secondary since Unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons. So, you would deal with penalties of -2/-2/-5/-5/-5. Also note: all the natural attacks would deal 1/2 STR and power attack damage (the second kick might too if it isn't monk; I was always vague on that). So you have a lot of attacks, but they come with appropriate penalties that balance their use.
But if you switch the kicks to claws on the vestigial arms gained from feral mutagen(one of the central problems of the argument: do claws grant attacks, or is it the arms?), then you would not be dealing TWF nor with manufactured weapons, so no penalties (0/0/0/0/0) and all the attacks deal full STR and power attack damage.
So you go from a sub optimal attack routine (useful only for getting sneak attacks off maybe) to one that is a power house that can decimate anything in its path. And those 5 attacks can be accomplished by level 5, before anyone else gets an iterative, if you use the extra discovery feat. If a vivisectionist took advantage of this, they could deal an average of 95 DPR in favorable conditions with the right build. And all of this occurs without any penalties to anything.
Sure, bite/claw/claw is also powerful for that level range, but it is merely ok once you get into mid levels. 5 natural attacks would decimate all opposition through all level ranges though. So balance-wise, I believe that the original intention of the vestigial arms was to avoid such builds, and the design team's judgment on this issue will reflect this.
Bizbag |
You see, with kick/kick/bite/claw/claw/, you are dealing with the penalties of TWF as well as the natural weapons becoming secondary since Unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons. So, you would deal with penalties of -2/-2/-5/-5/-5. Also note: all the natural attacks would deal 1/2 STR and power attack damage (the second kick might too if it isn't monk; I was always vague on that). So you have a lot of attacks, but they come with appropriate penalties that balance their use.
If you're not a monk, any unarmed attacks made with your off-hand iterations are 1/2 strength, as normal. A level 6 fighter TWF unarmed could have four unarmed strikes, +4/4/-1/-1, at 1/0.5/1/0.5 str, as normal.
HangarFlying |
Actually, a creature with two claws and a bite cannot bite/claw/claw/kick/kick. The unarmed attacks are consumed when the claw attacks are made. He may only claw/claw/bite or US/claw/bite or US/US (off-hand)/bite.
I'm on my cell and it's about to die, else I would find the relevant links. Otherwise you can find them on the last page of the old thread in a post that GNW posted.
HangarFlying |
From the prd
Vestigial Arm discovery
Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.So, no new attacks and no new actions as the discovery explicitly states so in that regard.
Shield use while attacking with two weapons seems legit as no new attacks (you can already make two weapon attacks, just not with a shield with only two arms) are added and no new actions are added.
Regarding the sword/board, I seem to recall a debate about whether you could TWF still. Something about the off-hand being consumed about shield use. I'm not very confident on that, the debate was jumbled and I can't recall which way the dev commented. Again, phone dying, but when I find the link, that would obviously have an impact here.
Again, not debating either way, just bringing it up so maybe someone else can look it up in my absence.
lantzkev |
Common sense tells you that if you're using Vestigial arm discovery, that if the extra attack couldn't happen without it, you can't do it...
The arms are vestigal afterall ie
vestigial (v-stj-l)
Relating to a body part that has become small and lost its use because of evolutionary change. Whales, for example, have small bones located in the muscles of their body walls that are vestigial bones of hips and hind limbs
You can certainly use it to Two weapon fight with two handed weapons if you want... but you can't say hold four long swords because you figured a way to get four attacks through other methods.
BigNorseWolf |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The question isn't as much "Can vestigial arms grant extra attacks" because the answer is no. The question is closer to "How many attacks can I have with Vestigial Arms". For instance, a Tengu with TWF and IUS at level 1 can have 5 attacks (Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite), but if the same Tengu had 2 additional arms to hold daggers, he could theoretically do Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite in a full attack. But then people say no because the dagger/dagger/claw/claw/bite is somehow more attacks than kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.
The reason people say no is because you've changed TWO variables in your comparison: the arms, and the mixture of unarmed strikes and natural weapons. If you keep all the other variables the same its clear that the attacks are in fact above what you would get without the arms.
The tengu mutant freak holding daggers can theoretically Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite - still 5 attacks. You can't compare different attack methods for the comparison, you have to compare the same attack method.
fretgod99 |
I'm not convinced that UAS/UAS/Claw/Claw/Bite is legal.
I wouldn't let a fighter make claw/claw/bite plus knees and kicks any more than I'd let a fighter make rapier/dagger plus knees and kicks, or punch/punch plus knees and kicks.
The rules don't let you keep on adding attacks as you think up appropriate body parts to attack with, and it doesn't let you use those extra attacks just because your hands are full. The rules say you can make one attack per round, or two with TWF, and iterative attacks according to your BAB. The rules don't care if your unarmed strike is a punch, kick, or headbutt, it just cares that you get only one additional attack if you're using TWF.
If the fighter can normally use lefthand/righthand, and is instead using leftclaw/rightclaw, he can't start making kicks, knees, and headbutts in addition to those claw attacks "just because he's not using unarmed strikes."
Mentioned it in the last thread. Again, this was a few months before the new FAQs on UAS, but I'm not aware of anything that has come out that would dispute this. Could be wrong though.
This is from the same thread where he clarified that you cannot use the Tentacle discovery to gain additional attacks that you did not have before getting the discovery (and that discovery has language identical to the Vestigial Arm discovery).
lemeres |
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:The question isn't as much "Can vestigial arms grant extra attacks" because the answer is no. The question is closer to "How many attacks can I have with Vestigial Arms". For instance, a Tengu with TWF and IUS at level 1 can have 5 attacks (Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite), but if the same Tengu had 2 additional arms to hold daggers, he could theoretically do Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite in a full attack. But then people say no because the dagger/dagger/claw/claw/bite is somehow more attacks than kick/kick/claw/claw/bite.The reason people say no is because you've changed TWO variables in your comparison: the arms, and the mixture of unarmed strikes and natural weapons. If you keep all the other variables the same its clear that the attacks are in fact above what you would get without the arms.
The tengu mutant freak holding daggers can theoretically Kick/Kick/Claw/Claw/Bite - still 5 attacks. You can't compare different attack methods for the comparison, you have to compare the same attack method.
My point exactly. I could look more leniently if you were trading away talon attacks or rake attacks if you had pounce (since those are the two types of natural attacks that go on biped feet), but mixing in manufactured attacks and then taking them away so you suffer no penalties is just too much.
I mean, you have to tie blades boots to your feet so you can better use the claws on your degenerate extra arms? How does that work? How can you justify that in anything other than the world of VERY abstract rules?
HangarFlying |
HangarFlying wrote:Actually, a creature with two claws and a bite cannot bite/claw/claw/kick/kick. The unarmed attacks are consumed when the claw attacks are made. He may only claw/claw/bite or US/claw/bite or US/US (off-hand)/bite.Fine then, Boot Blade/Boot Blade/Claw/Claw/Bite.
Nope. Though it's possible it could change, the weight of the evidence says no.
HangarFlying |
The Shamrock posted a quote that is directly relevant to your question. Ultimately, unarmed strikes are synonymous with manufactured weapons (considering they are treated like manufactured weapons). Unless there is a change in direction regarding this subject, no, you wouldn't be able to make a dagger/dagger/claw/claw/bite combination.
Redneckdevil |
Ow I agree, but I was just putting out a direct question that coukd be faq that would basically settle the discussion.
But no I am 100% behind that u can't do the 5 move combo and that the arms can attack but they replace another limbs spot to attack with.
I was posting a direct question that if answered would settle the whole thing once and for all because people are stilk believing that because of the ckaws the rules are different.
mplindustries |
5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All of the discussion seems to be trying to slip around the direct question, which is actually:
"If I have racial claws on my hands, and I take two Vestigial Arms and Feral Mutagen, is my attack routine:
1) Claw/Claw/Bite
or
2) Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite"
The obvious intention is 1. The literal wording is 2. None of this "kick/kick/whatever nonsense is really relevant, that's just people trying to backdoor the answer in their favor.
mplindustries |
The two questions are different branches to the same tree. Furthermore, I don't know how your second example can be considered "literal wording" when the rules literally state that the vestigial arms don't grant any additional attacks.
Because the claws grant the attacks, not the arms. But this isn't really for debating as much as getting a dev answer, is it?
lantzkev |
I'd argue that feral mutagen doesn't give you additional claw attacks it just over writes your claws and gives you a bite personally.
Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist's full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.
Maw or Claw: Some tieflings take on the more bestial aspects of their fiendish ancestors. These tieflings exhibit either powerful, toothy maws or dangerous claws. The tiefling can choose a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage or two claws that each deal 1d4 points of damage. These attacks are primary natural attacks. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.
While neither specify where the claws are located, we all assume they are either the hands or the feat... Generally we all assume the hands.
If you can justify your character somehow attack with his feat and hands and biting all at the same time (and that you can't wear shoes while doing so) and that it'd do so without some crazy penalties or provoking constantly you might can go your route...
But then there's the issue of where the claws from feral mutagen are put and where the claws from tiefling are put (or other race)...
The simple and elegant solution is that unless otherwise specified, claws are part of your hands....
we know that eidolons can have it on their legs (once only)
Claws (Ex): An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution.
I've always assumed this should have read more like "if you have more than two legs you may apply this any beyond the first pair" because like any creature we use legs to balance when we attack (unless flying)
mplindustries |
I'd argue that feral mutagen doesn't give you additional claw attacks it just over writes your claws and gives you a bite personally.
Quote:Feral mutagen: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist's full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.Quote:Maw or Claw: Some tieflings take on the more bestial aspects of their fiendish ancestors. These tieflings exhibit either powerful, toothy maws or dangerous claws. The tiefling can choose a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage or two claws that each deal 1d4 points of damage. These attacks are primary natural attacks. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.While neither specify where the claws are located, we all assume they are either the hands or the feat... Generally we all assume the hands.
Exactly. So, what happens normally is:
You have two claws naturally, and you gain two more and a bite. Each hand now has two claws on it (imagine that nightmare if you dare). This means you have 5 natural weapons, but there is a clause in the rules that prevents you from using the same limb to deliver more than one natural attack.Thus, the same rule that prevents you from using a claw and a sword in the same hand prevents you from using both claws on each hand. Therefore, though you are entitled to 5 attacks, you are only able to make 3.
If you have the Vestigial Arm discovery twice, your Feral Mutagen claws can go on those hands, rather than your base hands that already have claws on them. Just as before, you are entitled to five attacks, but are no longer restricted from taking them all.
lantzkev |
I think you're looking at this wrong.
I'm not saying you get two claws on each hand, I'm saying each hand is only capable of having one "claw"
Each limb is only ever capable of having a singular "claw" on it.
Taking feral mutagen on a race that has claws already, is redudant except for the bite attack (and also usually a better dmg die on the claws see above, 1d6 rather than 1d4)
You can argue the value of it, but for my games it's the rule. For Anyone else out there, and PFS included, if in order to get the extra attack you had to have vestigal arms, you can chalk that up to "extra attacks" that are prohibited from happening. IE common sense.
If you can't take these extra attacks without the arms, you can't take them because you have arms.
Claxon |
Nine hits. Not bad.
I think it should be more, but I also think lots of people aren't hitting FAQ because of the liklihood of being told "No, it doesn't let you get 4 claw attacks".
I would like to be right on this (and I think I am) but I would like an official answer more than anything to back up my position or firmly refute it for any future cases.
Worse than being wrong is never knowing you're wrong.
Charender |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Basically, there are two viewpoints. Consider a basic human TWF with feral mutagen.
1. If I had 3 attacks in a full attack(Main hand/Off hand/bite) before the vestigial limbs, I cannot make more than 3 attacks after gaining the vestigial limbs. 3 is a hard limit, it cannot be passed via vestigial limbs, period.
2. With feral mutagen I actually have 5 attacks. Main hand, off hand, claw, claw, bite. During a full attack I cannot take my claw attacks because my hands are full(as per the natural weapon rules). Vestigial limbs free up my claw hands and allow me to take my natural attacks at the same time as my manufactured attacks. I am not actually gaining any attacks because I had 5 attacks before I gained the vestigial arms. the vestigial arms are just allowing me to take attacks that I was disallowed from taking before due to the natural attack rules.
The actual wording
"The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). "
can be interpreted as
You cannot take any more attacks during a full attack action due to a vestigial limb
or
The vestigial arm does not add any new attacks to your routine, but it can free you up to take attacks you already have from other sources
The problem likes in a lack of clarity about exactly what context to use for determining what is an "extra attack".
Redneckdevil |
For some, having extra arms, decreases your amount of available attacks.
In fact, you simply must do less than everyone else.
Give example please how vestigial arms (which state no extra attacks or ACTIONS) are lower than someone who only has 2 arms?
Attack wise they are the same with the same amount of attacks except the person with vestigial arms can hold a shield (gaining more ac) in one and hold a potion in another (so u can chug a potion without an attack of oppertunity).So please give an example how someone with 2 arms gets more attacks than someone who has 4 arms (2of which are vestigial)?
DrDeth |
That and the fact that there was another thread made about this. One that is gaining just as much argument as the first.
Plus, some people are just tired of natural attack threads. That was part of the reason why I never faqed the first thread.
I too am tired of them, and this argument. Which is why I want a FAQ.
fretgod99 |
fretgod99 wrote:How are anybody's available attacks decreased by having extra arms?Exactly.
No, not exactly. What I'm asking is where, in any of these discussions, has anybody made any kind of argument where having vestigial arms reduces one's attacks?
This would be the textbook definition of begging the question.
Pathfinder Design Team Official Rules Response |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5
Alchemist, Tentacle/Vestigial Arm: What does "extra attacks" mean for these discoveries?
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).
Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Sean K Reynolds Designer, RPG Superstar Judge |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Post removed. Observe the paizo.com message board rules and the How to use the Rules FAQ sticky post.
Edit: Specifically, this part of the sticky post:
I don't like the answer in the FAQ. What can I do?
If you have found rules that appear to override a FAQ, post about it as a reply to the thread and open up the idea for more discussion. What you found might be an exception to the rule, or it might be the evidence to overturn the ruling.
If you disagree with a ruling but don’t have any additional evidence to show that the ruling is incorrect, accept the ruling and move on (restating your points from earlier in the discussion is not “additional evidence”). Remember that you can house rule it for your home campaign.
Dash Lestowe |
I appreciate the FAQ, this clears up the grey area about the different interpretations.
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.
Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
I don't like the answer in the FAQ. What can I do?
If you have found rules that appear to override a FAQ, post about it as a reply to the thread and open up the idea for more discussion. What you found might be an exception to the rule, or it might be the evidence to overturn the ruling.
If you disagree with a ruling but don't have any additional evidence to show that the ruling is incorrect, accept the ruling and move on (restating your points from earlier in the discussion is not "additional evidence").
This might be viewed as a restating, if you view it as so, please disregard.
A Beaststrike club, is a weapon that acts as both a manufactured weapon, and a natural weapon.
When used as a manufactured weapon, it's only a club, and grants no additional attacks.
When it's used as a natural weapon, you grow a limb, and that limb gains a natural weapon (tail slap, for example). This means when you take a full-attack action, you get to include it in your sequence. To use it as a natural weapon, does in-fact grant you an additional attack.
The additional attack is a derivative of the core difference between the two types of attacks, and that difference, was the basis for my questions, and discussion about the topic.
I understand the reason behind the FAQ, however, I feel that a unilateral restriction on two different types of attacks only muddies the water between those two attacks, and removes part of their unique differences.
fretgod99 |
This might be viewed as a restating, if you view it as so, please disregard.
A Beaststrike club, is a weapon that acts as both a manufactured weapon, and a natural weapon.
When used as a manufactured weapon, it's only a club, and grants no additional attacks.
When it's used as a natural weapon, you grow a limb, and that limb gains a natural weapon (tail slap, for example). This means when you take a full-attack action, you get to include it in your sequence. To use it as a natural weapon, does in-fact grant you an additional attack.
The additional attack is a derivative of the core difference between the two types of attacks, and that difference, was the basis for my questions, and discussion about the topic.
I understand the reason behind the FAQ, however, I feel that a unilateral restriction on two different types of attacks only muddies the water between those two attacks, and removes part of their unique differences.
I don't agree with your reasoning. The Beaststrike Club doesn't mean the wielder grows another limb. The Club turns into another limb that's held by the wielder. It's nearly the literal interpretation of ripping a guy's arm off and beating him with it.
It functions no differently than if you had a claw on the hand that you're using to wield the Beaststrike Club. That hand it no "used up" making a natural attack. If you have other manufactured weapon attacks to make with other limbs, you are still free to do that. But the hand wielding the club is still unavailable, whether it was wielding an actual club or a lion's paw. It's not an additional attack - it's a weapon that gives you the choice between making a manufactured weapon attack or a natural weapon attack. There's a cost to using the Beaststrike Club as a natural weapon - you're foregoing your opportunity to use that hand to wield a manufactured weapon. Plus if you use another weapon in that turn the Beaststrike Club goes from a -2 to attack with possibly full STR to -5 to attack with 1/2 STR.
This isn't a unilateral restriction on two different types of attacks - this is a ruling that says, "You don't get more attacks after taking Vestigial Arm than you did before taking it". This is specific to Vestigial Arms, not all natural attacks.
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Dash Lestowe wrote:When it's used as a natural weapon, you grow a limb, and that limb gains a natural weapon (tail slap, for example).I don't think thats the case. The club merely changes its shape into say, an ankylosaurus club for a bashing tail attack or a unicorn horn for a gore attack.
Yea, I don't think it grows a limb either.