| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Recent rulings on half-elves and half-orcs counting fully as both human and elves or orcs (respectively) for all effects based on race has (thankfully, IMO) brought 'PC races' more in line with the type/sub-type system which governs all other creatures; this seems to beg a new question though:
Does a creature with the Human subtype who takes Racial Heritage for Elf or Orc count as a Half-Elf or Half-Orc for all effects normally affected by that feat?
They would possess both the Human and Elf, or Human and Orc, subtypes just like a member of the base race... If the answer is "yes," it would be nice to have that officially stated somewhere; if the answer is "no," it would be nice to here from one of the developers why it doesn't work that way.
Why should it be mechanically superior to taking Racial Heritage (Half-orc) or (Half-elf)?
Maybe you want to play a half-X but still get the human racial traits. Though if you're spending your bonus feat to do so, it doesn't seem like a great bargain.
Is there any reason you can't take Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) or Racial Heritage (Half-Orc)? The feat seems to mention humanoid races, not humanoid sub-types. If those options are valid, then there is no reason to take Racial Heritage (Elf) or Racial Heritage (Orc) and the problem that spawned this thread is solved.
black raven- that's kind of my point though... there is no such thing as a half-elf or half-orc subtype, they're just races that possess both progenitor races' subtypes. plus, from a purely common sense stance, how much sense does it make to count as fully human and fully elf but not count as a half-elf (like you are somehow simultaneously both too human and too elven to count as the race that is also fully human and fully elven?!?)
harald- i'm wondering if there's any purpose/need for racial heritage (half-elf) or (half-orc) to even exist?
i recognize that you could argue that this makes the elven and orcish heritage 'more valuable' than other heritages (since they give more options), but realistically you're spending a feat to have the same range of options that the half-breed already has (since a half-X can choose from human, X, or half-X options)... for that matter, if Racial Heritage lets you count as that race for all effects than wouldn't Racial Heritage (Half-X) already do exactly what i'm asking about?
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.and
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?
Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).
Edit 9/26/13: This is a reversal of an earlier ruling. This resolves a discrepancy between this FAQ and two Advanced Player's Guide FAQs.
so, technically, right now if you take Racial Heritage [Half-Elf] (just for example) you can choose any racial traits/feats/archetypes/etc available to Humans, Half-Elves, or Elves... i guess that eliminates any need to ever take elven or orcish heritage?
black raven- that's kind of my point though... there is no such thing as a half-elf or half-orc subtype, they're just races that possess both progenitor races' subtypes. plus, from a purely common sense stance, how much sense does it make to count as fully human and fully elf but not count as a half-elf (like you are somehow simultaneously both too human and too elven to count as the race that is also fully human and fully elven?!?)
I've always played half-X races as their own subtypes. Taking time to look into it, I see that was incorrect. The race builder, for example, lists half-elves as "Humanoid (elf, human)."
I don't think it really matters either way, however, unless some munchkin ranger wants to argue that they can take Favored Enemy: Humanoid (half-orc) and get a full bonus vs. three races. There are rules elements that apply to half-orcs and half-elves specifically, but those may just refer to race, rather than subtype, and I can't think of any that aren't beneficial.
You could still take Racial Heritage (Elf) by RAW, I suppose, but the only thing that'll accomplish is depriving yourself of a bonus with hybridization funnels.
It might let you access *alternate* racial traits, however, through retraining.
If a half-elf took Racial Heritage (merfolk), could they retrain Low-Light Vision into Seasinger? It sounds absurd, but it seems like it should be legal.
Retraining (from Ultimate Campaign) lets you get manage both. The human monk could just take Racial Heritage at 1st level, then spend 15 days (5 * number of altered/replaced class features) to swap from the vanilla monk to Underfoot Adept.
Retraining (from Ultimate Campaign) lets you get manage both. The human monk could just take Racial Heritage at 1st level, then spend 15 days (5 * number of altered/replaced class features) to swap from the vanilla monk to Underfoot Adept.
Yup, this should work as well, since you're only required to wind up with a character who is legal at his final starting level when using retraining (with the caveat that you can't retrain into PrCs taken into consideration).
Cheapy had a thread back when the original FAQ came out in 2012 discussing this. To be honest, outside of PFS I would just allow the player to design the character as he chooses rather than going through the retraining rigmarole.
No. Taking Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) doesn't give you access to a half-elf's racial traits, of which Elf Blood is the one that allows half-elves to count as both elves and humans.
all arguments about whether "Elf Blood" is a racial trait aside, the reason i posted those two quotes one after the other (in my previous post) was to demonstrate that right now by RAW (including the FAQ) if you choose Racial Heritage(Half-Elf): "you count as both human and [Half-Elf] for any effects related to race" (emphasis mine); and, as a (effective) Half-Elf, you "may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if [you] were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements)"... and that parenthetical isn't something i added, it's from the quote!
i'm open to another understanding, but based on these rules this definitely seems to be the correct interpretation?
I don't think it really matters either way, however, unless some munchkin ranger wants to argue that they can take Favored Enemy: Humanoid (half-orc) and get a full bonus vs. three races.
thankfully, that's not an option since there is no such thing a 'half-orc' subtype (just creatures that possess both the human and orc subtypes).
Retraining (from Ultimate Campaign) lets you get manage both. The human monk could just take Racial Heritage at 1st level, then spend 15 days (5 * number of altered/replaced class features) to swap from the vanilla monk to Underfoot Adept.Yup, this should work as well, since you're only required to wind up with a character who is legal at his final starting level when using retraining (with the caveat that you can't retrain into PrCs taken into consideration).
Cheapy had a thread back when the original FAQ came out in 2012 discussing this. To be honest, outside of PFS I would just allow the player to design the character as he chooses rather than going through the retraining rigmarole.
Using PFS's 1st level retraining in this way seems mildly abusive from a mechanics standpoint, but it fits perfectly with the fluff, so I wouldn't object. Racial Heritage might be more elegantly realized as an alternate racial trait that replaces the human bonus feat. Opening up racial archetypes, even at 1st level, seems entirely within the spirit of the rules, even if it cannot actually be accomplished without house adjustments or roundabout reconstructions.
No. Taking Racial Heritage (Half-Elf) doesn't give you access to a half-elf's racial traits, of which Elf Blood is the one that allows half-elves to count as both elves and humans.all arguments about whether "Elf Blood" is a racial trait aside, the reason i posted those two quotes one after the other (in my previous post) was to demonstrate that right now by RAW (including the FAQ) if you choose Racial Heritage(Half-Elf): "you count as both human and [Half-Elf] for any effects related to race" (emphasis mine); and, as a (effective) Half-Elf, you "may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if [you] were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements)"... and that parenthetical isn't something i added, it's from the quote!
i'm open to another understanding, but based on these rules this definitely seems to be the correct interpretation?
I have to agree with Rhatahema that the Elf/Orc Blood is the trigger for half-races to gain the parent choices.
As a distinct racial trait it is not covered by Racial Heritage, anymore than you don't get low light vision, darvision, or whatever the race gets.
I can understand you argument based on the FAQs. Often the FAQ replies simply state the ruling on a given question. In these cases they don't sum up the subrules that lead to it (in this case the benefit of ***-blood for half-races).
hmmm... you know what would really clear up all these varying readings of the RAW?
an FAQ entry on Racial Heritage...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
<snip> Half-Halflings subtypes ;-)
OMG the QUARTERLINGS are here!
Even though it makes sense that being a human with elf heritage means you have half-elf heritage (and vice-verse), in game terms half-elves are a distinct race from elves.
that speaks to my original question (does racial heritage[X] let you also choose half-X options), and i see your point about how RAW can overrule common sense and result in access to human or elf options but not half-elf... but what about the apparent RAW going the other direction that i've quoted a couple of times where if you take Racial Heritage [Half-X] it seems as though you do get to choose from all 3?
it seems like maybe not everyone caught the argument... its based on the communicative property (from logic) and, simply, it goes like this (using half-elf as an example):
- with Racial Heritage [Half-Elf], "You count as [a half-elf] for any effects related to race" <quoted from feat, edited for specific example>
- "Half-elves...may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements)" <quoted from FAQ, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, 9/26/13; emphasis mine>
- Therefore, Racial Heritage [Half-Elf] allows you to select racial rules element as an elf.
I understand the argument that the language in the FAQ is based on the assumption that the Half-Elf in question has 'Elf-Blood' (which may or may not even be a trait...), but that's never stated (brings us back to the issue in the first paragraph about RAW v. common sense). Either way, it's confusing and we've seen within this conversation that there are different sections of the rules that are at odds on the issue- that's why I put it out as an FAQ candidate (so please flag it for FAQ before your next comment and we'll, hopefully, see what the devs think).
edit: at this point it might be better to do a new question for FAQ consideration... so please mark the question below for FAQ consideration instead of the first one (and then continue posting as you see fit).
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Actually, i guess really at this point the question that should be FAQed is specifically about taking Racial Heritage for a half-breed...
Can a character who takes the feat Racial Heritage for half-elf or half-orc choose racial rules elements as an elf or orc, like an actual half-elf or half-orc can?
(see the above syllogism for the underlying rationale)
Even though it makes sense that being a human with elf heritage means you have half-elf heritage (and vice-verse), in game terms half-elves are a distinct race from elves.that speaks to my original question (does racial heritage[X] let you also choose half-X options), and i see your point about how RAW can overrule common sense and result in access to human or elf options but not half-elf... but what about the apparent RAW going the other direction that i've quoted a couple of times where if you take Racial Heritage [Half-X] it seems as though you do get to choose from all 3?
It's a bit silly, but not actually contradictory. If Racial Heritage (Half-elf) does grant you both human (where it matters) and elf options, as most of us seem to believe, it doesn't necessarily follow that a human with Racial Heritage (elf) would also get access to half-elf-specific elements. Half-elf, for this purpose, is basically a "buy one, get one free" deal.
We've established: 1) that "half-elf" is not a subtype, 2) that subtype and race are not the same thing, and 3) that effects that refer to half-elves are restricted by race, not subtype. A human with Racial Heritage (elf) might for all intents and purposes be a "humanoid (elf, human)," and for subtype-reliant effects would be identical to a half-elf. For effects that rely on race, however, they only count as humans and as elves, not as half-elves. It doesn't fit the fluff, but it makes sense within the RAW.
A human with Racial Heritage (elf) might for all intents and purposes be a "humanoid (elf, human)," and for subtype-reliant effects would be identical to a half-elf.I still don't see where you're getting that Racial Heritage grants you the race's subtype. Where does it say that?
It doesn't explicity grant the subtype, but since you are treated as an elf (or whatever) for "all effects related to race," it's almost indistinguishable. I said "might" because I'm not entirely sure if stuff like Favored Enemy, which checks "creature type" rather than race, counts as such an effect.
After the native outsider weapon proficiencies thread, folks might be worn out Bestiary subtype questions. I'd be inclined to say the feat does not actually grant a subtype in those rare cares where it matters, but I agree the interaction between Racial Heritage and subtypes could be spelled out more clearly.