This is a thread to discuss how Monks work when in a party in "Real World" scenarios. That is to say, not just how much DPR when circumstances are perfect, but how things actually work out in a game. I suggested 5 monsters of CR12 and everyone seemed to think 10th level was the level to use.
So first up is the Adult Green Dragon. He is hiding in dense forest 40' from a 10' wide trail. DC24 to spot him. We are not rolling, that's too swingy. We just kind of figure out what the odds of success are and go from there.
So the first challenge is, can you spot him? So far both Monks and the Fighter (with a trait for Perception) can spot him when taking 10. The barbarian just misses.
So surprise round the dragon breathes acid in a 50' cone at the party (50-ft. cone, DC 22, 12d6 acid). Also he activates his Frightful Presence as a free action (Fear, DC20). Those that made the Perception check can act on the surprise round.
The dragon has Mirror Image and Shield already cast up. The advantage of being the ambusher and not the ambushee.
I am not really playing the roll of GM here (although I setup the encounter). I think we can all discuss what the dragon would do each round against each character so as to keep things from being biased and to prevent arguments of inadequate tactics, or whatever. So if you see anything wrong with the dragons methods or tactics, please speak up.
This thread is open to anyone, that's why I posed it in this forum. (Plus I couldn't figure out where else to put it.) If someone knows a better place I'm sure it can be moved.
My entry:
Bob
Human Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid
Init: +3
Senses: Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC: 24 (10, +3 armor, +3 Dex, +3 Wis, +3 monk, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
Touch: 21
Flat-footed: 20
HP: 93 (10d8+40)
Fort: +11 (7 base, +2 Con, +2 resistance)
Ref: +12 (7 base, +3 Dex, +2 resistance)
Will: +12 (7 base, +3 Wis, +2 resistance) (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Immune to disease
OFFENSE
Speed: 60 ft.
Melee:
Unarmed Strike +15 (4d6+7/x2)
Kama +14 (2d6+6/x2)
Flurry of Blows Unarmed +16/+16/+11/+11 (2d6+7/x2)
Flurry of Blows Kama +15/+15/+10/+10 (1d6+6/x2)
Ranged:
Shuriken +12 (1d2+8/x2)
Flurry of Blows Shuriken +13/+13/+8/+8 (1d2+8/x2)
Special Attacks: Stunning Fist, 11/day (DC 18)
STATISTICS
Str: 22 +6 (16 base, +2 racial, +2 level, +2 enhancement)
Dex: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Con: 14 +2 (12 base, +2 enhancement)
Int: 10 +0 (10 base)
Wis: 16 +3 (14 base, +2 enhancement)
Cha: 8 -1 (8 base)
BAB: +7/+2; CMB: +16; CMD: 33
Feats: Blind Fight, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Medusa’s Wrath, Point Blank Shot, Stunning Fist, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Skills: Acrobatics +16(+38 Jump)(10r), Climb +19(10r), Knowledge (Religion) +8(5r), Perception +16(10r), Sense Motive +11(5r), Stealth +16(10r)
Languages: Common
Special Qualities: +2 to Str, Bonus Feat, +1 Skill per level
Class Abilities: Improved Evasion, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, High Jump, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Pool (Magic/Cold iron/Silver/Lawful, 8 pts), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall (50’), Still Mind, Stunning Fist (10/day), Wholeness of Body (Heal 10, 2ki)
Equipment:
Monk Outfit (0gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Bedroll (0.1gp)
Waterskin (1gp)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (4,000gp)
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 (16,000gp)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 (4,000gp)
Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp)
Monk’s Robe (13,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
20 +1 Adamant Shuriken (2,004gp)
6 Potion of Cure Light Wounds (300gp)
3 Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (900gp)
57,205.1
Money: 4,794.9gp
62,000gp
Monk by the Numbers thread.
Raniel's post that I believe holds all the most relevant links.
Useful, but not at all what we are looking at. Actually it is the exact opposite of what we are looking at.
You know all of those Monks abilities that don't focus on anything? Well, sometimes they are useful. And sometimes not. So in a game how useful are they?
Anyway...
Bob will spot the AGD on an 8 or better. So most likely he is not surprised. The Frightful Presence he can save against also on an 8 or better. He saves vs. the breath weapon on a 10 or better and takes only half damage if he doesn't. Average damage will be 42. So he takes either 21 or nothing.
As this is a surprise round he probably won't engage just yet, he will wait for the party wizard and cleric to get some buffs off and for the fighter to be able to join him. He will probably 5' step to a tree for cover and either heal himself for 10 (although that is expensive at 2 Ki) or throw a shuriken at the dragon if not damaged. The shuriken will be at -3 to hit for range and he won't be able to add his Point Blank Shot or Flurry bonus, so it will only be at +8 to hit and deal 2d2+7 damage. Honestly he is hoping to hit an image to make it go away. Even then though he would need to hit an AC of 26, so only on an 18 or better.
Edit: Oh, as for how he will close. Bob can make a standing jump of 40' on a 2 or better. So the plan would be to jump over the underbrush and attack the dragon when he lands.
Doing nothing at all for a couple rounds seems pretty crappy
Yes doing nothing would be crappy. Who is doing nothing?
I posted what my rather mediocre monk might do which, admittedly, isn't hugely impressive just yet. But at least he is not running away or melting into the ground. Defenses do count for something.
Now I'm waiting to see what the weapon monk, the fighter, and the barbarian do. Also if anyone else wants to throw in another class, now would be the time.
As for the generic party, I'm not sure exactly how to handle it. I was thinking that probably only the Cleric would get an action on the surprise round. Maybe a buff or a heal? Remove Fear from anyone that failed their save?
Next round the Wizard might cast Haste (pretty standard) and the Fighter can move up or attack with bow. The Cleric can buff or heal depending on what the dragon does. And I'm not sure what the dragon would do either! If no one advances a second round of acid breath might work fine.
It's all up for discussion.
And I didn't take into account that Bob might have actually acted before the dragon did. The dragon as an initiative of +0, Bob has a +3. So he might have actually been able to get partial cover (assuming a normal tree) before the dragon's attack, which would give him a +1 to his Reflex save. He would probably still throw the shuriken to see if he could get an image, but as I said before, he has a low chance of success on that.
Which really does show the whole "problem hitting stuff" issue.
I just discoveredthat perfect strike do not work with temple sword :/, what a terrilbe feat.
I have to rework my build.
Wow, just looked that feat up. Only usable with kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, and siangham. Which all suck. I really only consider those secondary weapons, not something you would spend a feat on. The feat is really only good for a Zen Archer.
One of the biggest Monk weaknesses is their completely lack of viable ranged options. I suppose Qinggong can use Scorching Ray, but that costs 2 whole Ki points. Yikes! Other than that, Sohei and Zen Archer are the only archetypes I can think of that can effectively deal with flying/ranged opponents.
If that dragon doesn't land (and why would he?), the Monk's contribution will be negligible at best and non-existent at worst.
(BTW, why does the Barbarian fail to notice the Dragon, but the Fighter doesn't?)
One of the biggest Monk weaknesses is their completely lack of viable ranged options. I suppose Qinggong can use Scorching Ray, but that costs 2 whole Ki points. Yikes! Other than that, Sohei and Zen Archer are the only archetypes I can think of that can effectively deal with flying/ranged opponents.
If that dragon doesn't land (and why would he?), the Monk's contribution will be negligible at best and non-existent at worst.
(BTW, why does the Barbarian fail to notice the Dragon, but the Fighter doesn't?)
(The Barbarian has a Perception of +13. The Fighter has a +17, but took a trait to get it that high. The dragon's take 10 Stealth at 40' distance is DC24.)
I fully agree that the Monk has problems with ranged combat. Many builds can struggle with it as their ranged attacks are secondary at best, but the Monk's options are even worse.
In this case the dragon was sitting in the forest waiting for someone to come down the road. Why would he fly around looking for food when it will just come to him? He probably flew into the forest in the middle of the night so he wouldn't be noticed and plans to fly out once he has his meal. So he is starting on the ground.
If the dragon gets in trouble he can take off and retreat, but if he wanted to attack from the sky he might have some trouble. This is a thick forest, from the sky the dragon would have a difficult time seeing anyone hiding under the canopy of trees. Green dragons have Trackless Step and Woodland Stride, why wouldn't they use it?
The Adult Green Dragon was chosen by listing all non-good CR12 creatures in the original Bestiary. That came up with 5 creatures:
Adult Green Dragon
Lich
Purple Worm
Roper
Sea Serpent
So I took the first one in the list and came up with a (I think) reasonable scenario for that creature.
My my strength monks have slings. Most carry a few tanglefoot bags or alchemical fire grenades. Sure, that's nothing compared to a bow-armed ranger or a zen archer, but it's a whole lot better than nothing.
edit: And at least one carries a net.
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my monks snatch monsters out of the air when they use flyby attack. monks can easily get a +40 jump at level 8, so it should be more then high enough to get a 60 ish foot vertical leap for that grapple attempt.
once you grapple that flying creature they are cooked.
with MI up my tetori at 10 has a 95% success (- miss chance) for the grapple. i would need to hold action and rely on my teammates to remove the 8 images from the target, but once i had that opening that dragon would be face down in the dirt.
hog tie that sombeach and dance on his head as i lol in its face!!!
The barbarian
Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 10
Init: +1
Senses: Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC: 18 (10,+5 armor, +1 dex, +2 ring)
Raging AC: 13 (-3 reckless abandon, -2 rage)
Touch: 13 (raging: 8)
Flat-footed: 17 (raging 12)
HP: 108 (Raging 128)
Fort: +13 (+15 raging, +19 vs. Spells)
Ref: +7 (+11 vs. spells while raging)
Will: +6 (+8 raging, +12 vs. Spells)
DR 5/-
Fire Resist: 2
OFFENSE
Speed: 40 ft.
Not Raging Melee: Scimitar +14/+9(18-20/x2) 1d6+19
Raging Melee: Scimitar +19/+14(18-20/x2) 1d6+22, Bite +16(20/x2) 1d6+7
STATISTICS
Str: 23 +6 (27 during rage) (+2 racial, +1 level, +4 enhancement)
Dex: 13 +1
Con: 16 +3 (20 during rage) (+1 level)
Int: 10 +0
Wis: 10 +0
Cha: 10 +0
BAB: +10/+5; CMB: +16 ; CMD: 29
While Raging: CMB: +18 (+27 on Grapple);CMD: 29 (32 for Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip, Drag)
Feats:
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
1: Improved Grapple
3: Power Attack
5: Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
7: Greater Grapple
9: Rapid Grappler
Rage Powers:
2: Animal Fury
4:Hive Totem
Feat: Reckless Abandon
6:Hive Totem Resilience
8:Hive Totem Toxicity
10:Superstition
Features:
Permanent Endure Elements
Fast Movement
Equipment:
+1 Chain Shirt of Brawling (4250)
Belt of Giant's Strength +4 (16000)
+1 Anchoring Scimitar(9,300)
Ring of Protection +2 (8,000)
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver-Grapple(4,000)
Armbands of the Brawler (1,000)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists - Ghost touch (4,000)
Sandals of the Lightest Step (5000)
Will likely fail the reflex but pass the fear.
So he is going to take 12d6 (averaged to 42 damage)
Though I have to say that there are a bunch of trees here... so getting uninterrupted LoE would be tough. The dragon is probably just going to be cooking a lot of trees. This is particularly true since it needs concealment to hide, and it is a Huge creature. So the trees must also be huge. 40ft of Huge trees between it and its targets... drawing LoE will be nearly impossible for the whole party.
Also, this is probably a CR 14 encounter... not a 12. Environment and setup alter CR after all.
Also, frightful presence is generally activated by an attack or charge, and effects those that "see the action" (from UMR). So a dragon activating frightful presence while hiding is pretty suspect.
@ Lord Malkov
And while obviously Superstition doesn't apply when the barbarian isn't raging, I would think maybe your barbarian could pickup the Headband of Havoc for 4000 gp, which would allow superstition to funciton as though 4 levels higher and when the barbarian is attacked by the dragon he can use 2 rounds of rage to activate his rage immeadiately and thereby get his Superstition bonus to his reflex save against the Dragon's breath.
Now, it would probably change your buil quite a bit, but I also wouldn't be without a Ring of Evasion instead of the items for grappling.
But that's just how I would do it.
Will likely fail the reflex but pass the fear.
So he is going to take 12d6 (averaged to 42 damage)
I might be missing something, but how is he passing the fear? His Will save is +6.
Though I have to say that there are a bunch of trees here... so getting uninterrupted LoE would be tough. The dragon is probably just going to be cooking a lot of trees. This is particularly true since it needs concealment to hide, and it is a Huge creature. So the trees must also be huge. 40ft of Huge trees between it and its targets... drawing LoE will be nearly impossible for the whole party.
I thought of this, but you don't need huge trees to hide, just cover or concealment, which the forest provides. A human can hide behind a 3' wall even though he is 6' (5'?) tall. If that's not enough we could just say that the dragon had a Silent Image up in front of him that dropped as soon as he ceased concentrating on it.
Cover gives a +2 to your Reflex, so it could be reasonably argued that you get that even without stepping behind a tree, or at least partial cover for +1.
Also, this is probably a CR 14 encounter... not a 12. Environment and setup alter CR after all.
Yeah, it might be pretty brutal, but honestly I picked these guys when I thought the characters would be level 12. Everyone else insisted that that would be too easy and wanted CR+1 to CR+3. Would it really be any easier if we were on a flat plain and the dragon just flew back and forth over the characters with Flyby Attack?
Also, frightful presence is generally activated by an attack or charge, and effects those that "see the action" (from UMR). So a dragon activating frightful presence while hiding is pretty suspect.
Frightful Presence (Ex)
This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. Activating this ability is a free action that is usually part of an attack or charge. Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds.
Bolded for emphasis. So I see no reason why the dragon can not activate his Frightful Presence as a free action with a breath weapon attack. The dragon's range for his FP is 180'.
@Claxon
.... did I not write that down?
Yeah the headband should be listed, that's just a transcription error.
Ring of evasion is nice, but way over WBL standards for lvl 10.
@Twig, lets just go with my mistake of not writing down the HBoH, so the barbarian is shaken and takes full dmg from the Breath. No worries about that.
After surprise, the Dragon will have a better Init than the Barbarian, so what's next?
Even if the Barbarian (or anyone else) is feared I would want to know how he would perform in later rounds, so we could just assume that he actually made his save (certainly possible) or that his fear was removed (possibly by the cleric) or some other reason allowed him to attack next turn.
Or, of course, I have completely missed something and the Barbarian actually has a good chance of making his save in the first place.
also, I guess I should reduce his RA bonuses by 1 since they were bumped by the headband, so lets go with that moving forward.
Even if the Barbarian (or anyone else) is feared I would want to know how he would perform in later rounds, so we could just assume that he actually made his save (certainly possible) or that his fear was removed (possibly by the cleric) or some other reason allowed him to attack next turn.
Or, of course, I have completely missed something and the Barbarian actually has a good chance of making his save in the first place.
well, in this case I forgot to transcribe a headband of havoc(reckless abandon), which in a surprise situation from a dragon would promptly be used to enter Rage immediately, but on second look, since frightful presence is Ex and not Sp, the barbarian would still only have a +8, which is a better chance to fail than not. Either way, this is just the shaken condition.
OTOH, I didn't realize that Superstition gave its bonuses vs Su, abilities, so the flip of what I said would probably be the case, a shaken barbarian that passes the save against the Breath Weapon.
(side note: this is sort of odd for Superstition, because it doesn't require you to make saves vs. friendly supernatural abilities, just spells)
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And I didn't take into account that Bob might have actually acted before the dragon did. The dragon as an initiative of +0, Bob has a +3. So he might have actually been able to get partial cover (assuming a normal tree) before the dragon's attack, which would give him a +1 to his Reflex save. He would probably still throw the shuriken to see if he could get an image, but as I said before, he has a low chance of success on that.
Which really does show the whole "problem hitting stuff" issue.
You don't have to actually hit to pop an image. AC -5 will do that.
Even if most of his attacks miss, the monk should destroy the Mirror Image spell with his first flurry.
@Claxon
.... did I not write that down?
Yeah the headband should be listed, that's just a transcription error.
Ring of evasion is nice, but way over WBL standards for lvl 10.@Twig, lets just go with my mistake of not writing down the HBoH, so the barbarian is shaken and takes full dmg from the Breath. No worries about that.
After surprise, the Dragon will have a better Init than the Barbarian, so what's next?
Ring of Evasion isn't way over, just needs certain things to be possible. Someone to craft it for you at half price (12,500 gp) and to get rid of your Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver and Amulet of Mighty Fists and you're 2/3 of the way there. Of course this would require not specializing in grappling, which is how the character is designed.
Built with certain things in mind the barbarian can avoid taking any damage from the dragon's breath weapon. What it seems he wont avoid is Frightful presence. But does it actually cause the shakened or frightened condition? Shakened while an annoyance to the barbarian, isn't insurmountable. Actually being frightened will suck.
And I didn't take into account that Bob might have actually acted before the dragon did. The dragon as an initiative of +0, Bob has a +3. So he might have actually been able to get partial cover (assuming a normal tree) before the dragon's attack, which would give him a +1 to his Reflex save. He would probably still throw the shuriken to see if he could get an image, but as I said before, he has a low chance of success on that.
Which really does show the whole "problem hitting stuff" issue.
You don't have to actually hit to pop an image. AC -5 will do that.
Even if most of his attacks miss, the monk should destroy the Mirror Image spell with his first flurry.
The dragon's AC with a Shield spell is 31, -5 means that the dragon's images have a 26AC. With only +8 to hit my Monk needs an 18 or better.
Now once he closes to melee his chances will go way up and lots of attacks will take care of the images pretty fast. The dragon will only have 1d4+1 images (caster level 5), so maybe 3 or 4? Why don't we say 3 to give everyone a break.
In the last thread Avh posted a Fighter. He admitted it was not the greatest, but that's perfect! :)
Here are the stats:
Fighter 10
Initiative: +6
=== Stats ===
Str 24 (18 + 2 human + 2 level +2 belt)
Dex 15 (13 + 2 belt)
Con 16 (14 + 2 belf)
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 7
=== Defense ===
AC: 25 (10 + 11 armor + 1 natural + 1 deflection + 1 luck + 1 dodge)
Can vary from 21 to 35 depending on abilities used (and tower shield).
+4 vs attack of opportunity
Hp: 89
CMD: 32 (10 + 10 bab + 7 str + 2 dex + 1 deflection + 1 luck + 1 dodge)
+4 vs disarm and sunder
=== Saves ===
Fort: +12 (7 base + 3 Con + 2 resistance)
Ref : +7 (3 base +2 dex + 2 resistance)
Will: +10 (3 base + 2 wisdom + 2 resistance + 1 trait + 2 feat)
+3 against fear effects
=== Attacks ===
Simple : +2 scimitar : +25 (1d6+18 ; 15-20/x2)
Full : +2 scimitar : +25/+20 (1d6+18 ; 15-20/x2)
-Special attacks-
While enlarged : +0 attack, +4 average damage, reach 10'; -2 AC
Power attack : -3 attack, +9 damage
Lunge : -2 AC, +5' reach
Spring attack : as a full action, can move before and after the attack, and doesn't provoke attack of opportunity from target
Heavy shield : -0 attack, -3 damage, -3 power attack damage, +2 AC
Tower shield : -2 attack, -3 damage, -3 power attack damage, +4 AC.
=== Traits===
Indomitable faith (+1 will)
Ears and eyes of the city (+1 perception and class skill)
=== Feats===
1. Improved initiative, Power attack, Weapon focus (scimitar)
2. Combat Reflexes
3. Iron will
4. Dodge
5. Mobility
6. Spring attack
7. Weapon specialization (scimitar)
8. Lunge
9. Improved critical (scimitar)
10. Greater Weapon focus (scimitar)
=== Skills ===
Perception +16
Acrobatics +2 (-3 from armor included)
Survival +15
swim +14 (-3 from armor included)
=== Special ===
Combat reflexes : 3 attacks of opportunity per round and can make those while flat footed.
Bravery : +3 against fear effects
Weapon training II (swords +2, bows +1)
Armor training II (-2 ACP, +2 max DEX with armor, no movement penalty)
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) : transform a critical into a simple hit as an immediate action
Tower shield : as a standard action, can create a total cover with its shield.
=== Gear ===
+2 Belt of physical perfection 16k
+2 Scimitar 8k
+1 Amulet of natural armor 2k
+1 Ring of protection 2k
+2 full plate 5k
Masterwork composite longbow (+7 strength)
Masterwork tower shield
Masterwork heavy shield
20 masterwork arrows
Gloves of dueling 15k
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier 5,5k
Cloack of resistance +2 4k
10 potions of Enlarge person
Pocket money
So this guy would spot the Dragon on an 8 or better, would also pass the Will save vs. fear on a 7 or better (Yea Bravery!), and would likely fail a Reflex save. So not feared and takes 42 acid damage. Ouch.
He would probably go before the dragon though, so he could step to take some cover and fire an arrow at +14, which is a lot better than the Monk and will hit for a lot more damage (1d8+8).
For the next round, and just to give everyone a fighting chance, lets say that the dragon goes last (his Initiative is +0). The Wizard and Cleric will go first casting Haste and Communal Energy Resistance (Acid 20), respectively. Then the contestant character and the generic Fighter will go.
Does that all that sound reasonable? Any thoughts on whether the Fighter should charge or stand back and fire arrows? I figured that the Fighter would be a switch-hitter type with a falchion and a composite bow.
Dragon has a +0 init, so the barbarian would act first.
This is a bit of a 'worst case scenario' for a grapple build (big solo monster that gets a surprise round and is APL+2 to begin with)
First order of business would be to rage, and then to close distance.
Since the barbarian has Sandals of the Lightest Step he can ignore any difficult terrain that the woods may impose.
Assumption here is that the Cleric would spend an action to channel a heal on the group that just got AoE cooked (avg channel would be 18), not going to factor that in though.
The dragon is 40ft away, yes?
So the barbarian will move 40ft into an adjacent square.
The dragon will get an AoO, probably with its best attack, the Bite.
Attack bonus of +21 is all but an Auto-Hit, average dmg = 21 (16 after DR)
Barbarian is now at 70hp (-42 from breath, -16 from the AoO)
Barbarian Grapples the Dragon (no PA no RA, he knows its big)
Step 1
Animal Fury Bite +14 (40% hit chance) 7-8 dmg
Breakdown: +10 BAB, +8 Str, +0 Reckless, -2 bite penalty, -2 shaken
If the Bite hits, apply poison DC 20 (1/round, 4 rounds, 1d3 Con, 1 save cures). Dragon will probably pass this.
Step 2
Grapple +27 (-2 shaken, +2 if bite hits-not factored in)(65%-75% success rate)
Breakdown: +10 BAB, +8 Str, +4 feats, +2 armor, +2 gauntlets, +1 armbands, +0 Reckless (not used), +2 hive, -2 shaken
So, bite or no bite, the grapple likely will succeed. The bite is a bit of a coinflip.
This is where Grapple becomes very good.
The dragon can escape by beating CMD: 35 (50% chance)
CMD breakdown: 10 base, +10 BAB, +8 Str, +4 feats, +2 Hive totem, +1 dex, +2 Ring of Protection, -2 raging
Or the dragon can make an attack.
Grapple pretty much screws over any creature with lots of natural attacks since you can only full-attack while grappled with one light or one handed weapon. This is fine if you have iterative attacks, but its quite obnoxious if you have limb-based attacks.
It also fully screws over anyone with a two-handed weapon since they can't attack with that weapon at all.
The problem posed, however, is that the Dragon has a 50-50 chance to escape the grapple, and can then just fly away, making flyby attacks and breathing acid on the party until they could find a cave or something.
If the dragon doesn't escape, then the barbarian will latch on, (getting +5 to maintain, activate Reckless Abandon for +3. dragon will have -4 dex, so -2 CMD aka 95% grapple odds)
-bite + pin the dragon (95% chance)
-bite(now a 75% chance to hit (-4 ac from pin +3 to hit from reckless))
-then hogtie that big SoB so the escape check rises to DC 57. Per RAW, then, the dragon needs a Natural 20 so it cannot escape.
Big lizard dinner.
So it pretty much comes down to a single coinflip roll. Does the dragon escape? If it does, then a smart dragon will never land again, just murder with flyby attacks. Even with fly it can't be caught (200ft speed).
my monks snatch monsters out of the air when they use flyby attack. monks can easily get a +40 jump at level 8, so it should be more then high enough to get a 60 ish foot vertical leap for that grapple attempt.
You may want to go back and read the jump rules again, the DC for high jumps is 4 times the distance. To jump 1 foot in the air, requires a DC 4 jump, to jump 10 feet, requires a DC 40 jump check.
To jump 60 ft. in the air requires a DC 240 jump check.
This can be somewhat alleviated by using a Rod of Balance, which doubles the distance jumped, making a 60 ft. jump only a DC 120 check.
my monks snatch monsters out of the air when they use flyby attack. monks can easily get a +40 jump at level 8, so it should be more then high enough to get a 60 ish foot vertical leap for that grapple attempt.You may want to go back and read the jump rules again, the DC for high jumps is 4 times the distance. To jump 1 foot in the air, requires a DC 4 jump, to jump 10 feet, requires a DC 40 jump check.
To jump 60 ft. in the air requires a DC 240 jump check.
This can be somewhat alleviated by using a Rod of Balance, which doubles the distance jumped, making a 60 ft. jump only a DC 120 check.
Also, you can only ready a standard, move, swift or free action... so you would jump, possibly getting out of range of the Dragon's Bite, but you couldn't, say, jump and grapple or jump and attack.
alternatively, if the creature is your size or smaller, you could jump to collide with it, forcing it to make a DC 25 fly check or fall to the ground
Stuff
Don't forget that the dragon has Mirror Image up. But because this is a team game you might let the fighter go first with his bow. A full attack with Haste and Rapid Shot should get rid of most, if not all of the dragon's images and give you a clear shot at the dragon himself. (Go teamwork!)
Also, you are 5 hit die below the dragon (more than 4) so you would have been panicked, not shaken. That said we can just assume that you either actually made your save, or had the fear removed on the first round.
Just looked up Sandals of the Lightest Step (I had never heard of them before). There may be a problem.
In any round when the wearer has already moved at least 10 feet along the ground or another surface (not counting travel on a mount or vehicle), these boots can be activated as a swift action to give the wearer the ability to walk on air (as the air walk spell) until the end of the round.
So the first 10' would cost 20' of movement, assuming it was light undergrowth. Or you could move along the path for 10' first, but then you are still about 40' away when you start air walking.
Edit: Another thought... With the Haste cast by the Wizard you would have +30' of movement. And because Paizo doesn't hate Barbarians your fast movement isn't an enhancement bonus (even though both the Barbarian and Monk movement are Extraordinary abilities), so it stacks. So you should have plenty of movement after all.
StuffDon't forget that the dragon has mirror image up. But because this is a team game you might let the fighter go first with his bow. A full attack with Haste and Rapid Shot should get rid of most, if not all of the dragon's images and give you a clear shot at the dragon himself. (Go teamwork!)
Also, you are 5 hit die below the dragon (more than 4) so you would have been panicked, not shaken. That said we can just assume that you either actually made your save, or had the fear removed on the first round.
Yeah, pretty feasible for 1d3+1 images to get destroyed quickly. Average of 3 images, fighter just needs to hit AC-5 (22) to pop an image. Luckily the dragon is only CL5.
Still, a huge dragon at level 10 that gets the jump on the group... might be time to take the prudent course and GTFO. There isn't a whole lot that a level 10 group can do against Flyby attacks. Wizard might be able to land a compulsion to force it to land, but assuming 24 int, both focus feats and spell pen, he needs an 11 to break SR and a his save DC will be 24 (45% chance to land) for 5th level spells of his chosen school. So overall a 22.5% chance to land a Hold Monster. But at that point, why not just cast Charm Monster and end the threat.
And this isn't to say anything about the encounter, but the strategy here would really just be to spread out, shoot arrows, get into cover, and try to stay alive.
The wizard would be better off just landing damage spells tbh, and any attempts at melee would rapidly be shut down by simple flight. You can combat flight with some monsters, but when the speed is 200ft, that is a different story.
I suppose that certain summoned monsters could also try to entangle the Dragon, and a druid could use Control Winds to check the Dragon and keep it grounded. There are options.
Yeah, actually round 1 the Wizard should just step up, everyone grab on, and Teleport out of there. But where is the fun in that!
I will post for my Monk later. Then we can probably move on to the Lich encounter. That should be more interesting.
For serious though, why does the Barbarian have a lower Perception than the Fighter? All things considered, it should be the same.
I know this thread isn't about Wizards or Casters, but before any such test were to be concocted, you need to first establish what spells the Casters have prepared.
A 10th Wizard, for instance, might have Wall of Force prepared, which could be used like a giant windshield for a giant bug.
Just to be as close to impartial as possible, I'd suggest the Iconic Wizard spell list and disregard the 6th level spells, 1 5th and 1 4th level spell. Fortunately, the additional spells in the spellbook are included, so there is no Schrodinger Wizard scenario when it comes to what spell he can cast with his Arcane Bond. Still, he has 2 extra 5th level spells in his book, so 2 of those need to go.
Here's the Iconic Cleric and she has an extra 3rd, 4th and 5th level spells in addition to 6th level spells.
Also, this is probably a CR 14 encounter... not a 12. Environment and setup alter CR after all.
I'm pretty sure CR is calculated with the assumption that the creature will be faced in its natural terrain, giving it an advantage.
in its natural terrain, sure. So there is no adjustment for fighting an aquatic monster underwater.
But setting an ambush and pre-buffing, I think so. The rules here are vague (as they should be) but if you ambush the players from atop the sides of a steep canyon with pre-casted buffs on, stealth, and some big rocks ready to roll down on top of them... yeah that should alter CR. You can and should also alter CR for enemies that have foreknowledge of the PCs combat style and capabilities E.G. a BBEG caster that has specific spells set up to counter the PCs playstyle.
In this instance, maybe, maybe not. Its all GM fiat.
in its natural terrain, sure. So there is no adjustment for fighting an aquatic monster underwater.
But setting an ambush and pre-buffing, I think so. The rules here are vague (as they should be) but if you ambush the players from atop the sides of a steep canyon with pre-casted buffs on, stealth, and some big rocks ready to roll down on top of them... yeah that should alter CR. You can and should also alter CR for enemies that have foreknowledge of the PCs combat style and capabilities E.G. a BBEG caster that has specific spells set up to counter the PCs playstyle.
In this instance, maybe, maybe not. Its all GM fiat.
I dunno... Dragons have amazing senses and are incredibly smart. It makes sense to assume that they'd notice the enemy before the enemy notices them.
The BBEG is a different case, unless he had a previous encounter with the PCs and therefore knew what to expect.
Or scrying... or a minion that survived an encounter, or perhaps he captured or paid off some tertiary NPC. Evil Wizards are smart. If they get wind that someone is after them, they are going to do some Recon.
If the PCs had a previous encounter with a Wizard... then yeah, its a push because now BOTH sides have foreknowledge of what they're up against.
Or scrying... or a minion that survived an encounter, or perhaps he captured or paid off some tertiary NPC. Evil Wizards are smart. If they get wind that someone is after them, they are going to do some Recon.
If the PCs had a previous encounter with a Wizard... then yeah, its a push because now BOTH sides have foreknowledge of what they're up against.
Whici is kinda of my point... Anyway, back to Monks.
Yes, back to... wait is there anyone left that needs to be convinced that Monks are an underpowered class?
How about a different sort of discussion. Who is the BEST shirtless face puncher?
Here are the Rules:
Books allowed: CRB, APG, UM, UC, ARG(no custom races), UE
Race = Any
Class = Any legal combinations
Level = 12
Point Buy = 20
Wealth = 108,000gp
Maximum Item Cost = 27,000g
Special= No armor. Cannot use Weapons other than Unarmed Strikes.
Aaaannnnnd GO!
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(Bruno is a PFS-legal Tetori-Qiggong Monk 9/ Brutal Pugilist 2. All rolls assume "10" was rolled.)
PROLOGUE
Bruno walking in stupid forest. Bruno think about when Bruno was Young Bruno and would grapple trees for fun. Bruno is dragon-hunting and has mage armor up. This is Bruno only pre-battle buff.
Bruno smell stupid stinky dragon and sees it hiding like stupid scaredy cat. (Perception +17)
SURPRISE ROUND
Bruno (Init +4) acts before Stupidface Dragonstink (Init +0). Bruno activates turtle style (swift action). Bruno activates his Ioun Stone with True Strike (standard action).
Stupidface's stupid face pukes acid and is really ugly. Bruno fails both his saves vs the breath weapon and frightful presence (Ref +8, Will +9).
Bruno takes 42 points of damage (12x3.5) and is shaken.
ROUND ONE
Bruno delays until right before Dragon to maximize buffs/heals. Bruno then moves 40' through forest to the dragon (80' movement, halved for difficult terrain, equals 40'). Bruno eats an AOO (bite, 21 points of damage) but is now standing next to Stupidface. With True Strike plus Bruno normal Grapple CMB, Bruno auto-grapples (standard action). Bruno finally spends a ki point to boost his AC by 4 (swift action).
THEN A or B:
A) Stupidface full attacks Bruno (AC 29). All his attacks are at -2. The bite and 2 claws are 50% to hit. The 2 wings and tail slap are 25% to hit. Bruno only has 37 HP at this point if he hasn't been healed. We'll assume a cleric in the group has channeled and Bruno has enough HP to soak up the average damage of the bite and claws and that the wings and slap miss. Melee will be moving into range this round and in round 2 Bruno will pin and tie Stupidface so melee can full attack an easy target.
B) Dragon decides to take a standard action to break free. Bruno burns an immediate action to strength surge for +2 to his CMD (now 46). Stupidface can only escape on a natural 20.
AFTERMATH
Bruno drinks Dragon's tears.
It's a good idea to go with the Iconics to fill in the rest of the party.
As for Bruno, it looks like he will have about as much success as the Barbarian. Assuming he isn't running like a little girl (If you fail the Fear save you are panicked, not just shaken), and can land a hit against the dragon's AC and Mirror Images (which seems like it is fairly likely) then they pretty much end the battle right there.
As for my poor old standard monk...
Bob will spend a Ki point for +4 AC and leap 40' over to the dragon (only fails the jump check on a 1). An Acrobatics check won't work to avoid an AoO because he will be moving full speed, which will set the DC at 45. So the dragon will hit his 29AC on an 8 or better and do 21 damage, which is the first damage he's taken.
His attack will be at +16 vs. the dragons 31AC. If he gets one of the images he will have a 55% chance of hitting. If it is the dragon himself it drops to a 30% chance (15 or better), would do about 21 points if it hits and the dragon would save vs. his Stunning Fist on a 4 or better.
Dragon would then full attack back, but would only take out Bob if he hit with every attack (assuming average damage). So Bob is up for the next round.
With little HP left Bob goes for broke and spends a Ki point for an extra attack. His routine will be +17/+17/+17/+17/+12/+12 for 2d6+7/x2 damage each. He will try a Stunning Fist as soon as the dragon is out of images, which he might be already depending on if he took some out on his previous rounds and if the rest of the party took out the rest. If it hits and succeeds (which is really unlikely) Bob will get two extra attacks at +17 from his Medusa's Wrath. Realistically Bob will probably only hit 2 or 3 times, each time for about 14 damage.
So of the dragon's 172 hit points Bob would only do somewhere between 28 (if he is unlucky) and 63 (if he is really lucky) damage to the beast.
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It's a good idea to go with the Iconics to fill in the rest of the party.
As for Bruno, it looks like he will have about as much success as the Barbarian. Assuming he isn't running like a little girl (If you fail the Fear save you are panicked, not just shaken), and can land a hit against the dragon's AC and Mirror Images (which seems like it is fairly likely) then they pretty much end the battle right there
Anyone level 5 or higher will only be shaken on a failed fear save.
On a failed save, the opponent is shaken, or panicked if it has 4 Hit Dice or fewer.
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my monks snatch monsters out of the air when they use flyby attack. monks can easily get a +40 jump at level 8, so it should be more then high enough to get a 60 ish foot vertical leap for that grapple attempt.You may want to go back and read the jump rules again, the DC for high jumps is 4 times the distance. To jump 1 foot in the air, requires a DC 4 jump, to jump 10 feet, requires a DC 40 jump check.
To jump 60 ft. in the air requires a DC 240 jump check.
This can be somewhat alleviated by using a Rod of Balance, which doubles the distance jumped, making a 60 ft. jump only a DC 120 check.
Also, you can only ready a standard, move, swift or free action... so you would jump, possibly getting out of range of the Dragon's Bite, but you couldn't, say, jump and grapple or jump and attack.
not true, snapping turtle style (clutch) allows the main attack from the dragons AOO to trigger the grapple attempt.
ooo i did just reread the jump rules, i would only be able to make a dc 80 at my level, so i wouldnt be able to grapple the dragon, WAIT I'll just use my potion of fly... i dont like consuming consumables, but hey you do what you need to..