Double Chained Kama


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

When I looked through the eastern weapons I saw this weapon and was really confused.

"The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents."

Now, when I first read this I thought that it meant I could only make a one attack with it at reach per round, meaning that it wouldn't threaten, and if I had iterative attacks they would be wasted.

However, after looking over all of the threads that I could find on this issue I saw many people state that they thought it meant that it doesn't count as the double weapon when you use it as reach (meaning you could make iterative attacks, just no twf shenanigans).

Is there an official RAW ruling on this that I've missed? I'm building a scorpion character to go with my sub-zero character and I loved the idea of using a re-position action while yelling "GET OVER HERE".

Sczarni

If it's for a Society game, I'm not sure how it would be ruled... But, I do believe the spirit of the rule is such that if you had iterative attacks you could make multiple attacks at reach.

So, a Monk would be able to flurry at reach as well (and threaten adjacent with his UAS).

In my opinion this weapon needs a complete overhaul. I mean, what's the "rope" for and where is located on the weapon? Did they mean chain when they said you can swing the rope? Who knows, but by RAW you swing it by a rope as it's currently written...


well obviously there's an 8 foot rope to accompany the 8 foot chain. duh! :)


bumping, and hoping someone has an answer. :)


I think its pretty clear that the "single attack" is in comparison to the preceding statement about wielding both kamas simultaneously.

So, single weapon with reach or double weapon without reach. If you could only make a single attack per round this weapon would be a very strange specific case that does not appear anywhere else.

What is more confusing is whether or not this weapon occupies both hands when being used as a reach weapon.


PRD wrote:
Kama, Double-Chained: This weapon comprises a pair of kama connected with an 8-foot length of chain. The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

It's an odd weapon that breaks the normal paradigm of using a double weapon. Normally, a double weapon (ie. Quarterstaff) is counted as a single, integrated element and, when using it to two-weapon fight, you "take penalties as if wielding a one-handed weapon with light off-hand". Also, since it's a single weapon, if you drop or are disarmed of the weapon, you drop the whole thing. But the double-chained kama is explicitly called out as being different. It says you can attack "as if armed with a single Kama in each hand..." meaning you don't treat it as one-handed + light but rather two actual light weapons, meaning abilities contingent on using a light weapon (ie. Piranha Strike) will work when making such attacks. Also, you can drop or be disarmed of just one of the kamas but still be holding and able to make attacks with the other in addition to being able to retrieved the dropped one as a free action. So, in order to be completely disarmed of the weapon, your opponent(s) must succeed at two disarm attempts before your next turn, rather than just one.

Secondly, since it says you can either attack as if wielding a kama in each hand or make a single reach attack, it means that the single reach attack is instead of wielding it as two individual kama. It doesn't change the fact that, if not taking advantage of the "2 kama" rules elements, you're wielding it as a normal 2-h and not as a double weapon.

So, in summary:

1) It's a double weapon with a twist because the 2 kama disarm/drop separately and count as light weapons.

2) If you use it as a pair of kama, these attacks don't have reach.

3) If you attack using reach, it subsumes both your iterative attack and your next potential off-hand attack.

Sczarni

So, some follow up questions:

1) If you drop one kama in order to make a single reach attack, are you able to retrieve the dropped kama as a free action, and then make attacks with it adjacent?

2) The weapon is clearly finessable when used as 2 kama's. What about when using it at reach?

3) When used as two Kama's, feats like Weapon Focus (Kama) and such would likely apply... What about at reach?

(edit - cuz I have one more question)

4) If you're using it as two Kama's do you even need EWP Double Chained kama to avoid the penalty for non-proficiency (assuming you are proficient with the Kama)?


1) You don't really "drop" one of them to make a reach attack. You're holding it, but by the chain/rope rather than the handle of the kama part. In that case, getting it back is no different than getting back the business-end of a whip or a spear; a non-action included in the process of making your attack.

2) At reach, you're not using it "as a pair of Kama" so it no longer counts as a light weapon, thus nothing contingent on being a light weapon (ie. finesse, piranha strike) would apply.

3) Feats specific to Kama (ie. Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, etc) should apply only when using it as two Kama. If using it as reach, again, you're not getting that advantage and you'd actually need Weapon Focus (Double-Chained Kama) to affect it; and these feats would still function even if you wield it as two kama because it's still a double-chained kama so taking WF(Kama) is not as optimal as just taking WF(Kama, Double-Chained).

4) If you use it as two kama and have proficiency with kama, lacking EWP(K,DC) shouldn't be an issue until you want to use it at reach.


You can also drop one of the kamas as a free action to do something with your other hand, using it as a single light weapon in one hand and retrieve the other end as a free action when you want it again. Or so I believe, based on the description.

BTW, I don't agree that you lose your iterative attack if you attack using reach, if by that you mean that you lose the rest of your attack sequence. I would agree that you can't use it as a TWF/Double weapon if you are using it at reach, and lose the extra attack from that.

It does beg the question of what happens if you start your attack sequence against an adjacent enemy then switch part way through. My understanding is that you would lose the extra off-hand attack from TWF/Double as it is no longer a Double weapon, but what if you have already rolled that against the adjacent enemy? Should we rule that it cannot be switched in the middle of an attack sequence. That doesn't seem RAI, but the only other way is to leave your extra attack until last on the off chance that you may switch (whereupon you will lose it).

Also, there is lunge: at 10', are you attacking with a reach weapon or with a double/TWF weapon (I suppose it depends on whether you take the -2 from lunge).

finally(I hope), a question about proficency: if you have EWP(K,DC) can you use it either as a double weapon, a single weapon or a reach weapon without penalty, or do you need WP(Kama)to use it as a double or single weapon without penalty? My gut feeling is that if you get EWP (K,DC) you have proficiency with all forms of use (though you still need TWF to get an extra attack when used as a double weapon), wheres if you have Kama proficiency you can only use it as a Double or Single weapon, not a reach weapon.

Whew, that's confusing.


If you take EWP for it, it counts for all applications of the weapon; in this case, that includes using it double, single, or reach.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Double Chained Kama All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.