To dip or not to dip? (Archer Bard)


Advice


As the fourth member of a group and the team's only healer, I'm trying to decide whether to plan out my Archer Bard with a 2 level dip in Lore Warden or not.

If I go with the dip (which would come at 2nd and 3rd level), I'll have room feat-wise to take the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Arcane Bloodline, gaining both a Bonded Item and a handful of Wizard/Sorcerer spells later on - between that and Magical Knack I don't feel like my spellcasting will be too terribly impacted. If I don't go with the dip obviously my spell progression gets a bump and I gain access to all of my bardic abilities two levels earlier but the archery takes a hit.

Decisions, decisions...

If it helps, the rest of the group will be a Half-Elven Summoner (mounted), a Half-Elven Master Summoner and a Kitsune Sorcerer specializing in enchantment spells. Its kind of a concept group with no full martials and everyone capable of spellcasting, but apart from Haste the Bard will likely be the only buffer and healer. He'll get a little help in the social skills arena since everyone will have a high Charisma but will also be the only Knowledge guy in the party. The campaign, if it gets off the ground, will be a Rise of the Runelords run.

Even though its a ranged character, should I consider Arcane Duelist instead of a standard Bard? I won't miss the Suggestion abilities given the rest of the party composition, and I'll get Arcane Bond, Arcane Strike and Combat Casting for free... I've never made a ranged Arcane Duelist before, but it seems like a viable option.

Shadow Lodge

Should be fine as far as healing goes. You're probably not going to be doing much in combat healing, most of your healing will be smacking people with CLW wands(once you get them) and depending on how you feel about it, you might just hand the sorcerer a wand of infernal healing as the main lot of healing. The master summoner will probably just throw up a heap of summons to just absorb most of the damage, and probably deal out a bucket load as well.


Skerek wrote:
Should be fine as far as healing goes. You're probably not going to be doing much in combat healing, most of your healing will be smacking people with CLW wands(once you get them) and depending on how you feel about it, you might just hand the sorcerer a wand of infernal healing as the main lot of healing. The master summoner will probably just throw up a heap of summons to just absorb most of the damage, and probably deal out a bucket load as well.

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It was kind of my thought that I wouldn't need to do much combat healing, given the Summoner and Master Summoner will be absorbing a lot of damage (as will dominated minions when the Sorcerer gets around to it). The sooner I gain access to Soothing Perfomance the better, I think. Alas, we don't really have much access to Cure wands and whatnot in our campaign - we've kind of agreed that divine magic like scrolls and wands only works for those whom share the faith of the item's creator.

More and more I'm liking the Arcane Duelist as an archer idea. I'll throw up a preliminary build in a sec to see what people think.


Alright, this is what I'm thinking...
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Human Arcane Duelist
Human favored class option for Bards

Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th & 16th level)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14 (+2 racial bonus)

Traits:
Reactionary
Carefully Hidden

Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Rapid Shot
1st - Arcane Strike
2nd - Combat Casting
3rd - Precise Shot
5th - Weapon Focus: Bow
5th - Arcane Bond
6th - Disruptive
7th - Combat Reflexes
9th - Snap Shot
10th - Spellbreaker
11th - Discordant Voice
13th - Improved Snap Shot
14th - Penetrating Strike
15th - Deadly Aim
17th - Quicken Spell
18th - Greater Penetrating Strike

I'm thinking I'll be able to use the Snap Shot feats to menace spellcasters with Disruptive and Spellbreaker even at range - anyone see anything wrong with that?

The ability to wear medium and heavy armors should help a bit with survivability. I'm not boosting Charisma especially high because I'mnot planning on casting many spells that would require a save.

Thoughts?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

I would not dip out of bard, especially with a master summoner in the party. Your buffs will make all those monsters he's spamming into serious hard-hitting meat shields, to the tune of +4 to attack/damage or more starting at around 8th level.

Also pick up Deadly Aim before Weapon Focus. Bard buffs will mean you hit reliably; the extra damage from Deadly Aim is therefore more important than +1 to hit, even if it delays you getting Snap Shot.


You could instead have s13 d14+2 c14 i12 w10 ch14.


Cult of Vorg wrote:
You could instead have s13 d14+2 c14 i12 w10 ch14.

I'm not sure what this means.

Sovereign Court

It means:
Strength 13
Dex 14 (+2 racial)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 14

which isn't a terrible stat spread. A little strength is nice to add some damage to your bow. IMO usually an archer is fine with 12 con, but with no melee types in your party it's not overly prudent to take 14.

Your Arcane Duelist build up there looks solid; Improved Snap Shot makes you extremely difficult to deal with for casters. I don't see why it wouldn't work with Spellbreaker and Disruptive. Just make sure you grab some good defensive buffs like Mirror Image for when their henchman/meatshields come up and full attack you.


Reynard_the_fox wrote:
Your Arcane Duelist build up there looks solid; Improved Snap Shot makes you extremely difficult to deal with for casters. I don't see why it wouldn't work with Spellbreaker and Disruptive. Just make sure you grab some good defensive buffs like Mirror Image for when their henchman/meatshields come up and full attack you.

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Thanks. Definitely going to grab a couple of defensive spells (like the aforementioned Mirror Image). With the human favored class bonus the character should have a wealth of spells to draw upon.

I envision the role of battlefield buffer (obviously), positioning himself between the Summoner and summoned monsters and the the Sorceress and Master Summoner, screening them from any bad guys that get past the front line. Most healing should be done out of combat, I think, as we have enough mitigation in combat to keep us alive. Honestly, any damage I do is just laginappe in my opinion. I thought fot a little while about making this guy a reach weapon guy, but it probably would have required a dip to do well, and I like what I've put together up there.


I see no Manyshot in the mentioned feats. I guess that you are too feat starved to include it and if you do without a dip the Snap Shot feat tree will come online too late. Still I would probably take Deadly Aim at 5th or 7th lvl, I find it too good to pass up. Also I believe that Combat reflexes should be taken after Improved Snap Shot, how are you going to make AoOs without the increased threat range? Finally, I am not sure if Manyshot is a good feat to take at the higher lvls or the Penetrating strike feats will prove more useful.


XMorsX wrote:
I see no Manyshot in the mentioned feats. I guess that you are too feat starved to include it and if you do without a dip the Snap Shot feat tree will come online too late. Still I would probably take Deadly Aim at 5th or 7th lvl, I find it too good to pass up. Also I believe that Combat reflexes should be taken after Improved Snap Shot, how are you going to make AoOs without the increased threat range? Finally, I am not sure if Manyshot is a good feat to take at the higher lvls or the Penetrating strike feats will prove more useful.

For this build I find it more important to be accurate than to try and up my damage. Remember that we're talking a 3/4 BAB progression.

Many of these feats (like Penetrating Strike) aren't chosen by me but are instead features of the archetype.

I'm looking at swapping Deadly Aim and Combat Reflexes, but taking Combat Reflexes after Improved Snap Shot means that the combo doesn't fully work until 15th level at the earliest - Improved Snap Shot has a BAB requirement that I don't reach until 13th level.


Wiggz wrote:
XMorsX wrote:
I see no Manyshot in the mentioned feats. I guess that you are too feat starved to include it and if you do without a dip the Snap Shot feat tree will come online too late. Still I would probably take Deadly Aim at 5th or 7th lvl, I find it too good to pass up. Also I believe that Combat reflexes should be taken after Improved Snap Shot, how are you going to make AoOs without the increased threat range? Finally, I am not sure if Manyshot is a good feat to take at the higher lvls or the Penetrating strike feats will prove more useful.

For this build I find it more important to be accurate than to try and up my damage. Remember that we're talking a 3/4 BAB progression.

Many of these feats (like Penetrating Strike) aren't chosen by me but are instead features of the archetype.

I'm looking at swapping Deadly Aim and Combat Reflexes, but taking Combat Reflexes after Improved Snap Shot means that the combo doesn't fully work until 15th level at the earliest - Improved Snap Shot has a BAB requirement that I don't reach until 13th level.

I should have known better when I saw the feats taken at 14th and 18th lvls. Anyway I find it too much to take a feat at 7th lvl that will be practically useless until the 13th lvl and at the same time miss Deadly Aim. The retraining rules will definately solve this problem. As an alternative you could dip 1 lvl of Lore Warden Fighter at 13th lvl so that you obtain Combat Reflexes at the right time.

As far as attack bonus is concearned, with Arcane Strike and Inspire Courage (or Bladethirst according to the situation) I believe that you can take a small hit to your bonus in favor of Deadly Aim.


If you're going to dip, save it for 8 or 14. Improving the action economy of IC is key for a bard, no combat power is worth delaying that in my opinion.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

What Cult of Vorg and XMorsX said about dipping and attack bonus. With IC + haste + good hope, you won't be having a hard time hitting. It just becomes a matter of stacking on the adds for Rapid Shot.

Also, if your shtick doesn't kick in until 15th level, unless you are starting the game at 15th level, it's not really your shtick. Think of it more as a capstone or late-game awesomeness. Time stop is awesome, too, but you don't plan your build around it unless you're already 17th level.


XMorsX wrote:
As far as attack bonus is concearned, with Arcane Strike and Inspire Courage (or Bladethirst according to the situation) I believe that you can take a small hit to your bonus in favor of Deadly Aim.

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Arcane Strike adds to damage, not attack bonus.

Charlie Bell wrote:
Also, if your shtick doesn't kick in until 15th level, unless you are starting the game at 15th level, it's not really your shtick. Think of it more as a capstone or late-game awesomeness. Time stop is awesome, too, but you don't plan your build around it unless you're already 17th level.

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The character's 'schtick' is buffing during combat, healing between combats and serving as a face out of combat. I should be able to do those things at 1st level; archery is just another way to contribute. Also it was me making the point that I didn't want to wait until 15th level to be able to use Improved Snap Shot to its fullest, though I don't need Combat Reflexes for it to serve its purpose, namely to menace spellcasters.

I have no intention of dipping at this point.


Having played a master summoner, they can and will fill just about any role, whether through a single use of their daily summoning, or through build choices. Mine was the party's main healer, through Use Magic Device and cure wands (and later on with a cleric via Leadership). Build your character however you want, but do let them know what you plan to do. Let the other players know what spells you are taking, so there isn't too much overlap. I suspect this party will be just fine, whichever direction you go. The important part is to feel comfortable with your contribution.


flamethrower49 wrote:
Having played a master summoner, they can and will fill just about any role, whether through a single use of their daily summoning, or through build choices. Mine was the party's main healer, through Use Magic Device and cure wands (and later on with a cleric via Leadership). Build your character however you want, but do let them know what you plan to do. Let the other players know what spells you are taking, so there isn't too much overlap. I suspect this party will be just fine, whichever direction you go. The important part is to feel comfortable with your contribution.

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Oh we're very communicative when it comes to character concepts and builds. In fact both the Summoner and Master Summoner are builds of mine, having been played already in a Second Darkness campaign (they're twins who share an ancestral magic). Summoners are a favorite and specialty of mine, but I wanted to try something different this time around. As a Summoner player I know the kinds of things I appreciate from my party members so this time it'll be my turn to give back.

Our GM has already said that she's probably going to have to beef up most of the encounters - I think the Kitsune is scaring her a little bit.

Silver Crusade

The only change I would make would be to take Precise Shot before Rapid Shot. With all those summons flying around, you're going to be firing into melee an awful lot.

Shadow Lodge

Wiggz wrote:

Human Arcane Duelist

Human favored class option for Bards
I can see this being pretty cool utilizing Bladethirst on ranged equipment.
Quote:

Attributes: (20 point build)

STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th & 16th level)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14 (+2 racial bonus)
IMO, starting with your prime stat odd grants the best bang for the buck with 20pt buy. But hold the thought...
Quote:

Traits:

Reactionary
Carefully Hidden

Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Rapid Shot
1st - Arcane Strike
2nd - Combat Casting
3rd - Precise Shot
5th - Weapon Focus: Bow ..snip

Q. Is your concept antithetical to any dips out? If not, try....

STR:14 ...20pt
DEX+17 ...all bumps
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA:14

Build: two levels of Paladin [Divine Hunter] (1st at 1st, 2nd at 6th after four intervening levels of bard), rest bard. -- This grants you all martial weapon and armor profs, much better saves down the road, a free bow feat, and hefty bonuses versus evil (which would segue into Deadly Aim).


Sir Thugsalot wrote:


Build: two levels of Paladin [Divine Hunter] (1st at 1st, 2nd at 6th after four intervening levels of bard), rest bard. -- This grants you all martial weapon and armor profs, much better saves down the road, a free bow feat, and hefty bonuses versus evil (which would segue into Deadly Aim).

I actually thik that's a pretty good idea. Lots of promise in that build, I think... now I just have to figure out if this rogue can walk the line of Lawful Good for all those goodies...


Any time you're thinking of dipping out of bard think what you're losing.

Two levels out is 2/3 out is 2 caster levels, 2/3 of a spell level, and 1/3 of an inspire courage bonus (1/2 below level 5)

A bit of delayed bloodline is not worth it.


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Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Build: two levels of Paladin [Divine Hunter] (1st at 1st, 2nd at 6th after four intervening levels of bard), rest bard. -- This grants you all martial weapon and armor profs, much better saves down the road, a free bow feat, and hefty bonuses versus evil (which would segue into Deadly Aim).

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Alright, I've been playing around with this as an option... I'm not 100% sure that the character concept is ideally suited to be a Paladin, but I've revisited concepts before. It might be interesting to play a somewhat rakish and irreverent Paladin (by Paladin standards, anyway), one that doesn't prance around in shiny armor wielding the smite stick of doom... this is what I'm currently looking at, Paladin levels taken at 2nd and 7th:

Human 2nd level Divine Hunter / 15th level Arcane Duelist
Human favored class option for Bards

Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th & 16th level)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 7
CHA - 15

Traits:
Reactionary
Carefully Hidden

Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Rapid Shot
1st - Arcane Strike
2nd - Precise Shot
3rd - Combat Casting
3rd - Weapon Focus: Bow
5th - Deadly Aim
6th - Arcane Bond
7th - Combat Reflexes
8th - Disruptive
9th - Snap Shot
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Spellbreaker
13th - Improved Snap Shot
15th - Manyshot
16th - Penetrating Strike
17th - Quicken Spell

I get a number of feats earlier, most especially Deadly Aim, and while Manyshot comes late, at least it comes. Combined with a Smite once per day and the boost in saves that seems like a fair trade for the slower Bardic progression, at least on the surface. It does cost me two spells via the Human favored class bonus which is something, but I just realized that the Bard only gets the Shortbow profeciency, so that's another plus.

Decisions, decisions... I might like this character better as an Aasimar, I think, but we have an unofficial rule of only one non-standard race in the party and that's already been claimed by the Kitsune (the race is essential to her concept, both mechanically and from a role-play perspective).

Silver Crusade

Again, Precise Shot before Rapid Shot. If you take Rapid Shot first, you'll be fireing 2 arrows at a -6 because almost all of your shots will be into melee, and thus suffer the -4 penalty.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Again, Precise Shot before Rapid Shot. If you take Rapid Shot first, you'll be fireing 2 arrows at a -6 because almost all of your shots will be into melee, and thus suffer the -4 penalty.

We're talking about the difference between getting it at 1st level and at 2nd level here. The feat a free bonus feat with the Paladin level and I'd personally rather take the Bard level first. I really don't think it'll be a very big deal for the whole 15 minutes I'm going to be 1st level - in fact we usually start off as 2nd level characters and level according to the predetermined path anyway.


I like it. Precise Shot is given from the archetype bigdaddy, though a point could be made for taking a Pala lvl at first lvl. It will also give a bigger full Hit Dice, but I guess that Wiggz has give a lot of thought in the lvl progression and could want the Bard features come online from the first lvl.

It is also nice to see how one bonus feat improves so much the feat prograssion, and it also comes with Cha to saves as a bonus.

Shadow Lodge

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Again, Precise Shot before Rapid Shot. If you take Rapid Shot first, you'll be fireing 2 arrows at a -6 because almost all of your shots will be into melee, and thus suffer the -4 penalty.

In my experience, it's pretty easy to get a group of stable players into the groove of being tactically aware enough to 5' away from bad guys.

Two is always better one, especially at low level when you're as likely to miss as hit anyway.

(OP, go with the 15,14,14,14,12,07 array. Tried & tested. You're getting +2 damage on every shot, and your DEX is still 20 with a belt by 5th or 6th.)


I still don't understand how "bard healer" work. All this CLW outside of combat is cool until you get blinded or some other status effect pseudo-healers can't deal with stops you. I don't play canned adventures though, so maybe this isn't an issue in modules.

Anyway just go straight archer bard. Max Dex.

15 dex and cha, 12 str, con, and int. All archer feats and shoot away. all dex bonuses until 16 for the cha to 16 (which is when you get 6th level spells).


I had a go at the archery bard some time ago and came up with this.

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