Rod of Nettles and Sneak Attack


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The Rod of Nettles is considered a weapon that does no damage, but rather it does 1d3 Dexterity Damage.

Now, if looking at the text of Sneak Attack:

Sneak Attack:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

It does not state that the damage has be of numerical value, only the state based effect of if the enemy is denied DEX to AC or if flanked.

So if that is so, does that mean that a rouge can still do sneak attack damage to an enemy struck with a Rod of Nettles? Or better yet, a Ninja with Pressure Points?


I am about 99% sure they mean hit point damage, but I don't think it is game breaking, and that dex damage will be a bigger threat than the hp damage anyway if the rogue keeps hitting.

PS: Is the rod of nettles in Ultimate Equipment book?

Scarab Sages

Yes, the one on pg. 183.


That will swiftly get to one-hit paralyze range, or kills with the rod of withering. So, for game balance alone I hope it doesn't work. Certainly better than my idea of dual-wielding rods of ice to bring roguely icy doom, though.

Given the faq that weapon spec ray would only add to hp damage, not ability or other types, I'm pretty confident that massive ability damage on these rods is not RAI. However, I haven't found anything that technically disallows it.


Cult I was saying it would do hit point damage while allowing the rod to do dex damage.

I am not saying you would sneak attack for all of that dex damage. That is certainly not RAI.


I believe sneak attack damage is precision damage, so it would do HP damage on top of whatever else you do to the target via your weapon.

Rod of Nettles:
This wooden rod is engraved with serrated-edged leaves of stinging nettles. This rod acts as a +1 light mace that deals no damage. Instead, the rod's venomous touch (melee touch attack) deals 1d3 points of Dexterity damage and causes the target to become sickened for 1d6 rounds (DC 14 Fortitude negates the sickened effect and halves the Dexterity damage); on a critical hit, no saving throw is allowed.

Once per day on command, the wielder may touch the rod of nettles to ordinary vegetation, causing a 20-foot cube to become tangled with nettle-choked overgrowth as the overgrowth ability of the plant growth spell. Furthermore, creatures entering or within this area are affected as if touched by the rod, though creatures with a natural armor bonus of +3 or greater are immune to this effect. A creature that saves is unaffected by the area's poison for 24 hours.

Sneak attack:
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

While nothing in these descriptions say that sneak attack's damage is not converted into the nettle's dexterity damage, I've come to this conclusion with some thought. The sneak attack damage that's added on is the same type of damage(if not somehow altered by something) as the type of weapon you used to deliver it. Because the nettle counts as a mace, I would say this extra damage is bludgeoning.

Sneak attack says "Extra damage" not "Enhances damage." It would be whatever damage type the weapon is I think.

This is one of those nasty little combos that kills you in more ways than one.


Yeah, I really hope that it doesnt allow sneak attack damage to dex damage. Still, I think sneak attack is pretty clear that the extra dice go to regular damage. A sneak attack with that would rechnically be more powerful than the assassins assassinate ability; At level 10, even when they make the save, you would wipe out all of their dex.

Now, does it add the regular hit point damage of a sneak attack on top of the dex damage? Hard to say. Hardly game breaking, but the weapon does say it cant do any hit point damage, so I would be uncertain.


williamoak wrote:

Yeah, I really hope that it doesnt allow sneak attack damage to dex damage. Still, I think sneak attack is pretty clear that the extra dice go to regular damage. A sneak attack with that would rechnically be more powerful than the assassins assassinate ability; At level 10, even when they make the save, you would wipe out all of their dex.

Now, does it add the regular hit point damage of a sneak attack on top of the dex damage? Hard to say. Hardly game breaking, but the weapon does say it cant do any hit point damage, so I would be uncertain.

Ah, you are correct. It does say the weapon. Sneak attack however is coming from the player as a source and not the weapon. "Sneak attack damage" is not a weapons property.

Grand Lodge

If an attack does only ability damage, then is the Sneak Attack damage dealt with such an attack ability damage?

That's the core here, right?


@ black blood troll: Either that, or can you gain sneak attack damage (IE, hit point damage) while using rod of nettles. I'm unsure.

Dark Archive

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closest rule i can find (from 3.5)

Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

linky


Name Violation wrote:

closest rule i can find (from 3.5)

Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

linky

Heh, if this qualifies, then the answer is yes to both. Sneak attack does infact increase the "damage type", in this case being poison, but the poison effects hp rather than the dex.

Dark Archive

SwiftyKun wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

closest rule i can find (from 3.5)

Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

linky

Heh, if this qualifies, then the answer is yes to both. Sneak attack does infact increase the "damage type", in this case being poison, but the poison effects hp rather than the dex.

on that note, how do i sneak attack group members with cure spells?

add d6s to heals... yummy

Grand Lodge

Name Violation wrote:
SwiftyKun wrote:
Name Violation wrote:

closest rule i can find (from 3.5)

Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

linky

Heh, if this qualifies, then the answer is yes to both. Sneak attack does infact increase the "damage type", in this case being poison, but the poison effects hp rather than the dex.

on that note, how do i sneak attack group members with cure spells?

add d6s to heals... yummy

Cure spells require no attack roll.


Cure spells do require attacks rolls if used offensively, like against undead or someone that is trying not to be healed. But even then it doesn't really make sense. It might make sense to allow sneak attack on ability damage, but adding the sneak attack damage as the type of damage would be ridiculous. Imagine a rogue with enervation (even a wand)


In general the "damage is the same type rule" works assigning your sneak attack with a ray of frost to be cold damage.

But I'm pretty sure sneak attack wity say enervate just adds negative energy damage. Not multiple extra negative levels.

There's a few items where the same dwmage type bit kind of breaks the game and should probsbly just be hp damage. The rapier of puncturing for example.


Well OP, as it's looking, the majority of us agree at the very least that the sneak attack damage adds HP damage, and not the ability drain of the Nettle. At least, nobodies argued in favor of it, and honestly, it does seem like something too good to be true.

Remember, always assume that if you've found something game breaking, you weren't the first and that it's probably TGTBT.

Grand Lodge

partyrico wrote:
Cure spells do require attacks rolls if used offensively, like against undead or someone that is trying not to be healed. But even then it doesn't really make sense. It might make sense to allow sneak attack on ability damage, but adding the sneak attack damage as the type of damage would be ridiculous. Imagine a rogue with enervation (even a wand)

Cure/Inflict spells require no attack roll.

They require a Saving Throw, and you must touch the target, but an attack roll never happens.

Dark Archive

blackbloodtroll wrote:
partyrico wrote:
Cure spells do require attacks rolls if used offensively, like against undead or someone that is trying not to be healed. But even then it doesn't really make sense. It might make sense to allow sneak attack on ability damage, but adding the sneak attack damage as the type of damage would be ridiculous. Imagine a rogue with enervation (even a wand)

Cure/Inflict spells require no attack roll.

They require a Saving Throw, and you must touch the target, but an attack roll never happens.

so bluff ally(i'm gonna mess you up)

make touch attack (they arent willing)
sneak attack cure

Trollface

Scarab Sages

To those who answered my question, thank you. I never intended to have the sneak attack damage be the same type of damage (ability) to be added to the type of damage dealt. I was mainly wondering if it was even capable to do a sneak attack with a weapon that does no damage. So since that is the case, then apparently rogues can do sneak attack damage with a lasso, net, or simply touching something as a standard action...


Healing is not damage so there is no way to heal for xd6 from sneak attack.

@Cao Phen. The lasso or touch attack does not work unless it deals some form of damage. You can't just touch and get damage. I don't even know if the nettles Rod does damage, but I would allow it since it does some type of damage, even if it is not hit point damage.


Read the bold:
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn't result in a hit is not a threat.

Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit (see Equipment).

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.

I knew I remembered seeing it somewhere. Sneak attack damage is classified as precision damage. It adds sneak attack damage which hurts HP based on the type of weapon you're using. It does not do sneak attack in the form of damage you hurt with, in this case poison damage.

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