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I have a character who acts as a spy for the church of Norgorber. The trick to any character concept like this is to make certain that your character has a reason to help the group succeed. In my character's case, she's keeping her cover by being the best damn agent she can. She also makes sure to be as helpful for other character's personal faction missions so that she has more to report to her superiors.
If a player is playing a Consortium spy as an excuse to torpedo missions, that's not okay. If they are using the similar idea where they are there merely to Explore, Report (to the Consortium), and Cooperate, then no issues.
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One of the unique charity boons from Gen Con 2013 allows a character to take levels in the Aspis Agent prestige class.So you're saying there is literally one person out there with this boon? I'm not going to get worked up over it, if that is the case.
There is one person out there with this boon, and I believe the boon's text even specifies that the character is an ex-Aspis agent who is now employing the tricks he or she learned for the Pathfinder Society's benefit.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I think Morgan's concern is that there are players out there whose character concept is "I'm not really a pathfinder, I'm an aspis consortium spy who is infiltrating the pathfinders, and when we succeed at a mission, I'm secretly taking the spoils back to the consortium.
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Can't say I've encountered someone claiming their character is a spy, but I've seen a few instances of characters whose actions are regularly detrimental to missions. One of which saw the player, when questioned as to why they continually do such things, responding that their character disagrees with the Pathfinder Society's activities. They then cited many Pathfinder activities as illegal, and therefore needing to be stopped.
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Uh, keep in mind that at least some of the Factions are actively (especially in earlier seasons) fighting to control or change the Society. My Silver Lodge characters want to use it for good.
That is really only slightly different than secretly working for the Asps Consortium.
Adam has it totally correct above. As long as it doesn't affect what happens at the table it doesn't matter what your characters motivations are. As a couple of other recent threads showed, a great many characters aren't particularly loyal to the Society.
And IF it affects what happens at the table then it isn't acceptable regardless of how true to character you're playing. Within limits, obviously (occasional intra party conflict and angst can be fun as long as it doesn't get out of hand)
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I must say I am appalled. I have brought over to the society the secrets of the aspis, and I am somehow accused of treachery? Psh. I have left behind those losers. Pathfinders keep beating the aspis up and I just love being on the winning team!
Alexis, ex-aspis
Just keep it that way sweetie. 'Ol Painless', 'Discretion' and 'The Countess', (Pauses to pat the guns as she names them), likes shooting Aspis agents. Want to see my collection of Consortium badges? They are all nice looking, except for the blood and bullet holes. They look really nice strung over my kapenia.
By the By.. there are two particular agents I would like to know the location. They are responsible for the theft of a magical bell from Taldor. I would dearly love to 'discuss' this theft with them, most likely from a distance with 'Ol Painless'. She would love to remake their acquaintance for one last time.
(Well we know who got the GenCon Boon :D)
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Well, my character's battle cry is "Stop in the name of the Aspis Cnsortium!". He is however not a good liar so usually giggles like a schoolgirl immediately after.
Whereas my Cleric is a good liar and has SEVERAL times brought out the silver Aspsis badge she picked up in 'Severing Ties' and used it..
The Green Market: She bluffed a bunch of thugs to 'leave, you're interfering in MY PLANS.'By flashing the badge and claiming to be the Serpent. WIth a bluff in the 30s, they picked up and left.
Of course being able to lie like a rug and being occasionally called a 'Diplomat of Mass Distraction/Destruction' she's going to do it this season too.
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Just keep it that way sweetie. 'Ol Painless', 'Discretion' and 'The Countess', (Pauses to pat the guns as she names them), likes shooting Aspis agents. Want to see my collection of Consortium badges? They are all nice looking, except for the blood and bullet holes. They look really nice strung over my kapenia.
By the By.. there are two particular agents I would like to know the location. They are responsible for the theft of a magical bell from Taldor. I would dearly love to 'discuss' this theft with them, most likely from a distance with 'Ol Painless'. She would love to remake their acquaintance for one last time.
(Well we know who got the GenCon Boon :D)
It brings me great sorrow to see the blood thirst that grows more and more prevalent within my brothers and sisters in the Society in recent months. It is truth that some enemies cannot be brought to see the wisdom of benevolence, that some beings exist only to reap a harvest of sorrow and pain. Yet I believe there to be hope of showing many others a better way of life, opportunity to open their eyes spiritually and halt the corruption they impart upon their own souls. Alexis is such a one who has had the veil lifted from her eyes and benefited from spiritual awakening. Does it not then behoove us to seek to instill such an awakening in the other wayward members of her former organization in preference to ending their existence?
Take care, young Kyrie, that collection of such ill-will trophies does not dull compassion within your own heart.
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Alexis is such a one who has had the veil lifted from her eyes and benefited from spiritual awakening.
Aw, so altruistic of you... If by "spiritual awakening" you are referring to giant piles of gold, then yes, sure thing sweets.
Honestly, most of my ill will against the Aspis was due to them sending us out on pretty much suicide missions, with no chance of survival! Or go defend some stupid gate in the middle of nowhere. And all for what? To get routed or killed by Pathfinders, demons, centaurs, or worse? PFFT. No thank you.
Besides, it has been quite fun to come to the Society and show off some of my skills. My way with the whip is unmatched, and I bring all the Agency Secrets I can with me! There are one or two things the Aspis do well. But the decemvirate has treated me well, so I'm happy to stick around.
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I find it amusing and somewhat refreshing that after years of hearing people complain about the Decemvirate, their lack of compassion, and the society's perception of sending agents off underprepared, an ex-Aspis agent is here telling us, "Whoa! This is posh! You guys don't know how good you've got it!"
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Aw, so altruistic of you... If by "spiritual awakening" you are referring to giant piles of gold, then yes, sure thing sweets.Honestly, most of my ill will against the Aspis was due to them sending us out on pretty much suicide missions, with no chance of survival! Or go defend some stupid gate in the middle of nowhere. And all for what? To get routed or killed by Pathfinders, demons, centaurs, or worse? PFFT. No thank you.
Besides, it has been quite fun to come to the Society and show off some of my skills. My way with the whip is unmatched, and I bring all the Agency Secrets I can with me! There are one or two things the Aspis do well. But the decemvirate has treated me well, so I'm happy to stick around.
Difficult circumstance accompanies those who seek. Though at times the methods and measure of the Aspis and Society may seem similiar, at their heart, great difference reveals itself.
Continue upon your path with eyes open. If you are receptive to truth and higher purpose than the call of coin, enlightenment shall find you. I pray this is so, for only when one knows calling of purpose can they truly ascend.
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My father always says that the reason Pathfinders think they are underprepared is because they forget their training.
Aram Zey: The picture I have drawn is a linnorm. Now all linnorms benefit from BLAH BLAH BLAH and oftentimes BLAH BLAH BLAH. Whatever you do, never BLAH BLAH BLAH a linnorm! Seriously now, I don't think you understand how often I hear sob stories about BLAH BLAH BLAH saying, "Oh Master Zey, why didn't you tell me about the BLAH BLAH BLAH? Now I don't have any legs."
7-Int Bob: Gorum? Are you listening to me? I don't even remember what you're the god of, but please end my misery in having to sit through this dumb lecture. I just wanna use my rage ability and Power Attack to crush goblins and steal gold.
Aram Zey: ...of course it's entirely possible to negotiate with linnorms by appealing to their BLAH BLAH BLAH and being sure to offer them BLAH BLAH BLAH at the same time.
7-Int Bob: Gorum...? Please...? Any time now.
The Knowledge mechanics have their hiccups in general and in organized play, but overall, I'm happy with the way they work. Perhaps one day we'll publish a sanctioned list of things that every Pathfinder can remember without any trouble/check (e.g. This is what Azlanti looks like, this is who Aroden is/was, this is what everyone knows about the Aspis Consortium, etc.).
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** spoiler omitted **...My father always says that the reason Pathfinders think they are underprepared is because they forget their training.
Perhaps one day we'll publish a sanctioned list of things that every Pathfinder can remember without any trouble/check (e.g. This is what Azlanti looks like, this is who Aroden is/was, this is what everyone knows about the Aspis Consortium, etc.).
And, maybe, call it the Pathfinder Society Primer? Oops, name is already taken, though, isn't it.
Woulda been a good name for the thing, though...
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From what I have witnessed John, the community here is generally pretty solid about compiling information in reasonable manner. I believe it wouldn't take much prompting to get some of us to work on a compilation of common knowledge that you and/or Mike could look over, offer any necessary adjustments, and then sign off a thumbs up too.
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Just keep it that way sweetie. 'Ol Painless', 'Discretion' and 'The Countess', (Pauses to pat the guns as she names them), likes shooting Aspis agents. Want to see my collection of Consortium badges? They are all nice looking, except for the blood and bullet holes. They look really nice strung over my kapenia.
By the By.. there are two particular agents I would like to know the location. They are responsible for the theft of a magical bell from Taldor. I would dearly love to 'discuss' this theft with them, most likely from a distance with 'Ol Painless'. She would love to remake their acquaintance for one last time.
(Well we know who got the GenCon Boon :D)
It brings me great sorrow to see the blood thirst that grows more and more prevalent within my brothers and sisters in the Society in recent months. It is truth that some enemies cannot be brought to see the wisdom of benevolence, that some beings exist only to reap a harvest of sorrow and pain. Yet I believe there to be hope of showing many others a better way of life, opportunity to open their eyes spiritually and halt the corruption they impart upon their own souls. Alexis is such a one who has had the veil lifted from her eyes and benefited from spiritual awakening. Does it not then behoove us to seek to instill such an awakening in the other wayward members of her former organization in preference to ending their existence?
Take care, young Kyrie, that collection of such ill-will trophies does not dull compassion within your own heart.
Side Note: Kyrie's experiences are from encountering the more 'hostile' encounters with the consortium (including a set of never reported scenarios where the Consortium literally runs the group out of town..then follows them cross country for something that was clearly the Society's property).
She doesn't callously gun down Consortium agents, or renegade Shadow Lodgers, but once she calls for surrender and they refuse..well the 'Two Ladies' (Her muskets) don't usually leave much to reconsider the folly of not giving up.There is only one person in the world that she won't accept the surrender of..well two. Grandmaster Torch and Tancred Desmire.
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Side Note: Kyrie's experiences are from encountering the more 'hostile' encounters with the consortium (including a set of never reported scenarios where the Consortium literally runs the group out of town..then follows them cross country for something that was clearly the Society's property).
She doesn't callously gun down Consortium agents, or renegade Shadow Lodgers, but once she calls for surrender and they refuse..well the 'Two Ladies' (Her muskets) don't usually leave much to reconsider the folly of not giving up.
There is only one person in the world that she won't accept the surrender of..well two. Grandmaster Torch and Tancred Desmire.
And those experiences forming her views are perfectly valid :). Solail is just a classic pacifistic zen master personality until pressed in a corner or inaction would cause innocents to suffer. He always likes to give potential enemies a chance to surrender, or mend their ways, or grow spiritually rather than just kill them. I just saw a chance to jump in IC and leaped right on it! :p
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I actually had a character who was an "Aspis Consortium Spy" up until very recently. He was Grand Lodge faction and always deliberately tried to fail the GL faction mission. However, he would contribute to the overall mission -- after all, he wouldn't want to blow his cover!
Before the mission, I would always ask the group if anyone was playing a GL character and if there was *anyone* who was, I swapped out for another character. Because, "don't be a jerk".
With the changes to faction missions in Season 5, though, I got rid of that character. It was fun while it lasted, though!
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Tamago, how did you handle bluff checks / sense motive checks? Or was it just assumed that your character auto succeeded at those so no one ever found out he was a spy?
Because the problem I have with the Aspis spy thing, is that you are essentially saying "I auto win tests relating to my actions" or you are saying "I am going to use the no PvP rule to mean that even if my character gets caught, no one can do anything about it."
The only way I can really see that is fair is to make your bluff checks, and let people make sense motive checks, and if anyone catches you, play out the rest of the mission as "Okay, my cover is blown, but for all of us to live through this we have to work together to the end of the mission." and then retire the character as dead. (either the pathfinders killed him, captured him and turned him in, or he got away, either way he is never going to be invited on a mission again.)
Or, as he said, "deliberately try to fail the Grand Lodge faction mission." The secret mission that the spy (and only the spy, since as he said he only played the character when he would be the only Grand Lodge member on the mission) knew but nobody else did. What Bluff check is involved in not asking Ardahn McMerchant about the missing manuscript, or not drawing a copy of the mystic symbol tattooed on the back of the foreign slave, or not collecting a sample of the magic rock for further study in Absolom, or failing to question Badguy McVillain about the additional evil plans of his organization now that this plan has been stopped?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Tamago, how did you handle bluff checks / sense motive checks? Or was it just assumed that your character auto succeeded at those so no one ever found out he was a spy?
Because the problem I have with the Aspis spy thing, is that you are essentially saying "I auto win tests relating to my actions" or you are saying "I am going to use the no PvP rule to mean that even if my character gets caught, no one can do anything about it."
The only way I can really see that is fair is to make your bluff checks, and let people make sense motive checks, and if anyone catches you, play out the rest of the mission as "Okay, my cover is blown, but for all of us to live through this we have to work together to the end of the mission." and then retire the character as dead. (either the pathfinders killed him, captured him and turned him in, or he got away, either way he is never going to be invited on a mission again.)
To be honest, no one ever asked! As Bigrin said, simply *not* doing some secret thing that only I knew was supposed to be done isn't going to raise anyone's suspicion.
There was one mission I can remember where I had to actively thwart the Grand Lodge faction mission. The mission was to retrieve some specific parts of a particular monster, so instead my character burned them to make sure no one would get them. Everyone at the table just kind of shrugged and said, "must be his faction mission."
If anyone had gotten suspicious, I would gladly have rolled Bluff. And if I'd flubbed, I probably would have invoked the "no PvP" rule for the duration of the mission (purely to avoid derailing things -- in a home game, I'd definitely want to play out the confrontation!), and then asked the GM what happened to my character after he was found out. I think it's likely that the character would be marked "dead" at that point, but TBH I hadn't really thought too much about it.
But as I said, I never even got *close* to getting spotted, so it really never came up.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, technically, every time you sat down at a new table, with new players and said you were a pathfinder, as opposed to an aspis spy, you were making a bluff check. Just because the other players didn't know they were entitled to a sense motive check, doesn't mean they shouldn't have been given one.
Let me give this example.
You go to the briefing. VC something-or-other says "go out and get this." You do, you give it to him. He thanks you and you leave. The conclusion of the mission is that the next day your character finds out there is no VC something-or-other, and the person you gave the item to is an aspis agent. You fail the mission, get no prestige, and get the negative boon "under suspicion."
You say "what the .... How were we supposed to know? Why didn't we get a sense motive?" The GM shrugs and says "you didn't ask for a sense motive check. So you just believed him." Would you feel this is reasonable? Because this is exactly what your character was doing.
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Actually, if the fake Venture Captain doesn't do anything suspicious, and the PCs just go along with what they're asked to do because someone claims to be a Venture Captain, then they aren't entitled to one. And even if they were, the GM is within his right to roll for them, so they may have made a check and never known about it OOC. And if they had made the check? They would either have a "hunch" that something's not right, or know that some specific claim ("I want you to bring me this artifact so the Society can protect it") is false. Neither of those tells you "This man is a spy for the Aspis Consortium." Sense Motive is not Divination. Even actual Divination is usually not that specific.
So, if Tamago sits down at the table with me then sure. He can make a bluff check to convince me that his character is a true member of the Pathfinder Society. He'll get a +5 because my character will want to believe him. He'll get the +10 for presenting convincing proof just from the fact he was summoned by the VS same as me. Depending on which character I'm playing, he may even get the +5 for my being drunk or impaired. And with all that, even if I pass the Sense Motive check, all I get is that he's holding something back or that his claim to be a Pathfinder (if he's foolish enough to make that claim, instead of just treating it as a given assumption) is false. Or, we could just skip the whole tedious process and let him play his character in a way that doesn't disrupt the table. A large part of successful bluffing is keeping your mouth shut and acting like you're right where you're supposed to be.