Aleron |
Does the text 'one-handed' totally preclude the use of a light weapon? I wouldn't have thought so. You still wield it in one hand.
I was toying with the idea of giving my one Magus a fighting fan as their blackblade (eventually went against it but didn't see why I couldn't have...it is both slashing and 'one-handed').
blahpers |
An interesting idea: Does the rule refer to the size category of the weapon itself or the effective size category when wielded by the magus? If the former, a Large longsword should be legal, as it's still a one-handed weapon; it's just treated as two-handed by the magus. If the latter, a Large kukri should be legal, as the magus treats it as a one-handed weapon. I wonder which is true.
lantzkev |
I've always read the one handed slashing as being "not a two handed weapon"
not a restriction on it being only in the one handed weapon category.
If it's slashing, and you can wield it in one hand it qualifies imo. This is one of those areas where we have several terms that are spelled the exact same way but their meanings maybe different because of their context. It's odd to think you could use a rapier which is basically a light weapon almost
"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon"
But somehow you couldn't use a short sword, but could a whip or urumi or you could use a TERBUTJE or a BASTARD sword even though both require proficiency to not be a two handed slashing.
mdt |
But somehow you couldn't use a short sword, but could a whip or urumi or you could use a TERBUTJE or a BASTARD sword even though both require proficiency to not be a two handed slashing.
Blows Whistle
"Logical Fallacy on the Post! Five yard penalty, and repeat the down!"
A bastard sword is not a two-handed weapon that you can use one handed with a proficiency feat.
A bastard sword is an exotic weapon which, by the rules, requires an exotic weapon proficiency to use. Period, full stop, end.
However, it has a special ability, that allows it to be wielded as if it were a martial weapon, but requires you to use it two-handed if you do so.
This is not a two-handed weapon, it is a one-handed weapon with a special ability.
lantzkev |
lantzkev wrote:
But somehow you couldn't use a short sword, but could a whip or urumi or you could use a TERBUTJE or a BASTARD sword even though both require proficiency to not be a two handed slashing.Blows Whistle
"Logical Fallacy on the Post! Five yard penalty, and repeat the down!"
A bastard sword is not a two-handed weapon that you can use one handed with a proficiency feat.
A bastard sword is an exotic weapon which, by the rules, requires an exotic weapon proficiency to use. Period, full stop, end.
However, it has a special ability, that allows it to be wielded as if it were a martial weapon, but requires you to use it two-handed if you do so.
This is not a two-handed weapon, it is a one-handed weapon with a special ability.
So your rebuttal isn't to address the point of light weapons also being one handed slashing weapons, but that a two handed weapon is also a one handed weapon.... gotcha.
Now to the point you mentioned, it is actually both. If you do not take the exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword, you can wield it two handed without penalty if you're proficient in martial weapons.
It's a weapon that's exotic and martial...
Upon further review of the playback it was decided that the goal pass was actually completed, first down home team
mdt |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So your rebuttal isn't to address the point of light weapons also being one handed slashing weapons, but that a two handed weapon is also a one handed weapon.... gotcha.
No, my quote had nothing to do with the subject of light weapons vs one handed weapons. My point was that it is a common fallacy that a bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that you need a feat to wield one handed. It isn't. It's exactly the same as a Dwarven waraxe, a Falcata, a Great terbutje, a Hooked axe, a Katana, a Khopesh, a Nine-section whip, a Rhoka sword, a Sawtooth sabre, a Shotel, a Taiaha, a Temple sword, an Urumi, a Wahaika, and a Whip. What do all these things have in common? They are exotic one-handed weapons. What do most of them have in common in addition? They can all be wielded as a two-handed weapon, but they are not two-handed weapons.
How can you tell? You look at the equipment table. What section are they in? Oh, exotic. What category of Exotic? Oh, look. One-handed. Each weapon falls into one and only one category.
Now to the point you mentioned, it is actually both. If you do not take the exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard Sword, you can wield it two handed without penalty if you're proficient in martial weapons.
You may wield it in two hands as a martial. Not as a two-handed weapon. It never stops being a one-handed weapon. Any one-handed weapon (with a few exceptions) can be wielded in two hands. It doesn't magically change category from one-handed to two-handed. The special ability lets you ignore the non-proficiency penalty if you can wield martial weapons. Nothing changes the weapon category from one-handed to two-handed.
It's a weapon that's exotic and martial...
No, it's a weapon that is exotic. It has a special attribute that let's you treat it as martial if you hold it in two hands. Note it's wielded as a martial, it doesn't become a martial anymore than it becomes a two-handed weapon. If you had a feat that gave you a +1 to hit with one-handed weapons, you would get it while wielding a bastard-sword, even if you had not the exotic weapon proficiency and used it as a martial weapon, because it is a one-handed weapon. By the same token, if you had a feat that let you get a +1 damage with two-handed weapons, you could not gain that damage with the bastard sword, because it is not a two-handed weapon. It's a one-handed, check the equipment tables.
Upon further review of the playback it was decided that the goal pass was actually completed, first down home team
After the referee who had been bribed by the passing team was put in jail for falsification of records, the original calling was restored, and the passing team penalized another 30 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct
lantzkev |
lantzkev wrote:
So your rebuttal isn't to address the point of light weapons also being one handed slashing weapons, but that a two handed weapon is also a one handed weapon.... gotcha.
No, my quote had nothing to do with the subject of light weapons vs one handed weapons. My point was that it is a common fallacy that a bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that you need a feat to wield one handed. It isn't. It's exactly the same as a Dwarven waraxe, a Falcata, a Great terbutje, a Hooked axe, a Katana, a Khopesh, a Nine-section whip, a Rhoka sword, a Sawtooth sabre, a Shotel, a Taiaha, a Temple sword, an Urumi, a Wahaika, and a Whip. What do all these things have in common? They are exotic one-handed weapons. What do most of them have in common in addition? They can all be wielded as a two-handed weapon, but they are not two-handed weapons.
How can you tell? You look at the equipment table. What section are they in? Oh, exotic. What category of Exotic? Oh, look. One-handed. Each weapon falls into one and only one category.
...../snip
If you do not have the exotic weapon proficiency and wield it two handed do you take a -4 penalty for not being proficient in it?
To someone without the feat, it's a two handed weapon plain and simple. Regardless of which sub table you find it on.
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
I don't care what you think about it being found under exotic one handed weapon. If you don't take exotic weapon proficiency, you're wielding a two handed weapon.
You can argue semantics all you want, and to that extent the wall is that way --->
A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls.
If it's an exotic weapon and they don't have Exotic weapon proficiency: Bastard sword, I suppose they take a -4 for not being proficient...
The point of my statement was that without that feat for all intents and purposes it is a two handed weapon for you. it is a two handed weapon for someone who only has martial weapon proficiencies
Further more
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
So would a gnome fighter be able to wield a medium bastard sword two handed without the proficiency at a -6 or not at all? Under your opinion it seems clear you'd think the answer is -6... Common sense tells us not at all.
dark78660 |
The Bastard Sword is a One-Handed Exotic Weapon, that's it, its a One Handed Weapon.
It dose However allow you to wield it Two Handed as a Martial Weapon, but its still a One-Handed Weapon none the less, this debate has happened many times, and always ends the same.
Bastard Sword is classified as a One-Handed Weapon, regardless of proficiency or how you wield it.
lantzkev |
And again, it's immaterial to the issue at hand, it's someone crossing streams just to argue?
For everything that matters it's exactly as has been described above. Regardless of it being classified as one handed exotic, if you don't have exotic: bastard it's a two handed martial for you. Nothing can or will change that, the penalties will be the same.
It doesn't even pertain to this argument either, because the magus is automatically proficient in whatever they choose their weapon as.
dark78660 |
If you do not have the exotic weapon proficiency and wield it two handed do you take a -4 penalty for not being proficient in it?
To someone without the feat, it's a two handed weapon plain and simple. Regardless of which sub table you find it on.
"A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
So you can Use it AS a Two-Handed Martial Weapon, but its NOT a Martial Weapon, or Two-Handed for that matter.You would only take -4 non proficiency when wielding it with two hands if you are not proficient with Martial Weapons.
You need to read the wording of the Bastard Sword entry, it uses the word "as" and not "is".
dark78660 |
MendedWall12 wrote:Right, which means that technically the character is wielding a one-handed exotic weapon.Correct, the bastard sword is a one-handed exotic weapon.
You can wield it with two hands, just like every other one-handed weapon. This doesn't change it into a two-handed weapon.
Some people, who are not as well trained, can only wield it with two hands. This doesn't change it into a two-handed weapon.
There's a significant difference between
"two-handed as a martial weapon"
and
"as a two-handed martial weapon"One changes how you use it, the other changes the weapon.
MendedWall12 wrote:If a character can wield a sword proficiently in two hands, that means it is, at least in that character's hands, a two-handed martial weapon.A character can wield a dagger in two hands, but that doesn't mean it's a two-handed weapon.
A) Wielding a two-handed weapon.
B) Wielding a weapon as a two-handed weapon.
C) Wielding a weapon two-handed.
Though similar in wording, those three are not the same.
A) refers to the type of weapon. An appropriately sized greataxe is a two-handed weapon.
B) refers to what type of weapon you wield the weapon as. A human wielding a large longsword is wielding it as a two-handed weapon.
C) refers to how you wield it. You can wield a dagger two-handed.
Overhand Chop (Ex) specifies "with a two-handed weapon" which is A).
It's been shown that B counts as A.
A human with a greataxe, and another human with a large longsword, could both benefit from Overhand Chop. A human with a dagger, even wielded in two hands, cannot.
A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon. "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon." Using it two-handed is C), which does not qualify for Overhand Chop.
dark78660 |
Because just like the Bastard Sword is a One-Handed weapon regardless of how you use it, a Light Weapon is still a Light weapon, not a One-Handed weapon. Therefor a Bastard Sword even if you don't have proficiency counts for his Black Blade Class Feature, a Light Weapon is not a One-Handed weapon even if you wield it in one hand.
BigNorseWolf |
you're creating a distinction between how you use it and what it is for you.
If you're not proficient with it but you are with martial weapons, you treat it as a two handed martial weapon...
Anything more than that or less and you're adding more into it or taking away from it.
The distinction is "what it is to you" and "what it is". Its questioning whether such existentialism exists in the rules.
Thinking about it, that could also be problematic for using a large cestus a la hellboy.
Does anyone know if a magus can get a mithral black blade?
mdt |
Correct, A bastard sword can be a black blade, even if the Magus doesn't have the exotic weapon proficiency to use it one handed. It's still a one handed weapon. It means he can only two-hand fight with his black blade, thus negating a lot of his class features, or he can wield it one-handed at a -4 for being non-proficient, but it's still a one-handed weapon, and still valid for a black blade, regardless of the magus's proficiency with it.
And that is why it is relevant to the discussion at hand. And that is why it is important to realize what a Bastard Sword is, and what it isn't. If your proficiency with it changed what type of weapon it was, then it would be valid to be a black blade for one magus but not another, despite being a one-handed weapon. But your proficiency is irrelevant to classification of the weapon.
Cult of Vorg |
For the OP, a cestus is B/P, not slashing, so no good regardless if light or not.
The only slashing fist-style weapon I've found is the knuckle axe.
Also, I agree that as written, you can't take a light weapon as your blackblade, so it would have to be a large knuckle-axe. In home games, i think most GMs would be willing to waive that for a fun concept, but it's no-go for PFS.
As far as the bastard sword, there is a mechanics reason why the semantics are important. The bastard sword is a 1-handed exotic, that has a special ability to be wielded 2-handed as a martial. The opposite of a lance, which is a 2-handed martial that can be wielded in 1 hand while mounted, the only weapon with that special ability. There's a FAQ that allows the lance to get the 2-hand power attack ratio while wielded in one hand, so the difference restricts that power-up to just lances, not bastard swords and their ilk.
dark78660 |
Sorry for my wording.
"Enchanted" would be a permanent magically enhanced item. (In this case a Weapon)
"Enhancements", permanent or temporary, are still enhancements to the object.
Talk about being nitpicky huh XD
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1 or higher is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Similarly, ammunition fired from a projectile weapon with an alignment gains the alignment of that projectile weapon (in addition to any alignment it may already have).
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.
Only reason why I stated this is by your wording of "enhancement" being temporary bonuses, that means my +5 Speed Impact Bastard Sword would never overcome DR because my Temporary enhancements wont stack with my already +10 equivalent weapon since its maxed out.
Kazaan |
A one-handed weapon can be wielded two-handed. For that matter, a Light weapon can be wielded two-handed, but it gains no mechanical benefit for such wielding. Would you say that a Longsword can be a Blackblade, but ceases to be one when wielded two-handed? Of course not (barring mental challenges) because manner of wielding isn't the important factor here; it's type of weapon. A Light weapon being "wielded in one hand" is not pertinant here nor is size step-up or step-down for "wrong-sized" weapons; a Large Longsword being wielded as a two-handed weapon doesn't cease to be a one-handed slashing weapon at its base. You need to take an absolutist view because the Blackblade is an intelligent weapon who's existence is distinct from the magus that it is "bonded" to. So a Large light weapon "wielded as" a one-handed weapon doesn't count. If you want to have a "black blade" cestus, it's going to be a houserule; both on the weapon handiness category and the damage type. Period.
Lastly, the Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon at its base with a special provision that it cannot be wielded one-handed (even with non-proficiency penalty) if you lack EWP for it. You can wield it two-handed (as you can any one-handed weapon) and only suffer non-prof penalty if you lack blanket MWP; again, as a special ability. It's still a one-handed weapon at its base with the HP of a one-handed weapon for item damage purposes and still valid as a Black Blade, even if you didn't have EWP for it for whatever reason, just the same as a Blackblade Longsword still remains a Blackblade if you decide to make a 2-h attack with it.
mdt |
Sorry for my wording.
"Enchanted" would be a permanent magically enhanced item. (In this case a Weapon)
"Enhancements", permanent or temporary, are still enhancements to the object.Talk about being nitpicky huh XD
** spoiler omitted **
Ok, we're back to the system using the same words for multiple things again. *sigh*
My point was, that the temporary 'boosts' are not Enchantments because they are not permanent. Especially given that the FAQ says you can't enchant your black blade. If they were enchantments, you couldn't use them on a black blade by the FAQ. Clear?
mdt |
Lastly, the Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon at its base with a special provision that it cannot be wielded one-handed (even with non-proficiency penalty) if you lack EWP for it.
I agree with everything but this bit.
Price 35 gp
Type exotic
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. You can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
It doesn't say you can't wield it in one hand, it says the fact it requires special training is what makes it exotic. You can try to wield it one handed without the proficiency, it just imposes the standard penalty. Same as if you tried to wield a katana without proficiency.
Kazaan |
It doesn't say you can't wield it in one hand, it says the fact it requires special training is what makes it exotic. You can try to wield it one handed without the proficiency, it just imposes the standard penalty. Same as if you tried to wield a katana without proficiency.
There's a FAQ on this:
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13
They do mistakenly compare it to wielding a 2-h weapon in one hand, even though it's unambiguously a one-handed weapon because of its placement on the weapon charts, but this states outright that you cannot wield it one-handed at all so non-prof penalty doesn't even enter the equation until you're wielding it in two hands, in which it checks for MWP rather than EWP by special item allowance.
Malachi Silverclaw |
mdt wrote:It doesn't say you can't wield it in one hand, it says the fact it requires special training is what makes it exotic. You can try to wield it one handed without the proficiency, it just imposes the standard penalty. Same as if you tried to wield a katana without proficiency.There's a FAQ on this:
FAQ wrote:They do mistakenly compare it to wielding a 2-h weapon in one hand, even though it's unambiguously a one-handed weapon because of its placement on the weapon charts, but this states outright that you cannot wield it one-handed at all so non-prof penalty doesn't even enter the equation until you're wielding it in two hands, in which it checks for MWP rather than EWP by special item allowance.Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13
What disturbs me about this particular FAQ (and comments from the PDT regarding it) is that they are making the ruling based on the bastard sword normally being a two-handed weapon!
But it's not, and never has been in the d20 system, and in 1st and 2nd ed you could use it either one or two handed without penalty; you just did more damage when you used it in two.
SKR even commented to the effect of 'You can't use any other two-handed weapon in one hand, so why should you be able to use a bastard sword in one hand?'
Er....because it is not a two-handed weapon?
mdt |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok, hadn't seen that FAQ.
Or I didn't remember it.
Marking it as a 'ignore' in my home games. It only makes sense if the weapon is a two-handed weapon, and it's not, it's a one-handed weapon.
If they really think of it that way, they should errata the weapon to be a two-handed Martial that can be wielded one-handed with EWP. Currently, the FAQ is in conflict with CRB.
lantzkev |
Ok, hadn't seen that FAQ.
Or I didn't remember it.
Marking it as a 'ignore' in my home games. It only makes sense if the weapon is a two-handed weapon, and it's not, it's a one-handed weapon.
If they really think of it that way, they should errata the weapon to be a two-handed Martial that can be wielded one-handed with EWP. Currently, the FAQ is in conflict with CRB.
Well you can do anything in your home games... Kind of a non sequitur from the original post and this argument of PFS rules.
AdAstraGames |
Er. Yes. That.
Forget I asked this question. I sure as hell didn't mean to start up Cage Fight Semantics: Two Ideas Enter, One Idea Leaves...
I'd even be willing to just do Cestus damage, but by RAW, it's 1-handed slashing weapons only, not "slashing weapons that can be used in one hand."
Guess this won't work for PFS.
Malachi Silverclaw |
Ok, hadn't seen that FAQ.
Or I didn't remember it.
Marking it as a 'ignore' in my home games. It only makes sense if the weapon is a two-handed weapon, and it's not, it's a one-handed weapon.
If they really think of it that way, they should errata the weapon to be a two-handed Martial that can be wielded one-handed with EWP. Currently, the FAQ is in conflict with CRB.
Precisely.