Derek Weil |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I am currently playing and Gming for the play-by-post event. One of my characters is participating in Fangwood Keep, which as a module runs for a long time.
I also GM tables at my local shop many weeks. I'd like to apply these GM credits to my Fangwood character after he finishes (currently a Ranger 5).
But suppose he dies during the module and I can't bring him back? Can I then amend the GM chronicles I'd been accumulating at my weekly game night to apply them to another character?
This seems reasonable to me becuase if I played the character at a table game and he died, then any subsequent chronicles would go to another character.
Andreas Forster Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg |
You choose which character you apply the GM chronicle to when you finish the scenario (which is the same time you hand out the chronicles to your players).
If you planned to give the chronicle to a certain character, and that character dies before you hand out the chronicles, you just choose another character. Planning to apply a GM chronicle to a certain character before actually doing so is not an official choice, it's just your personal planning.
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
Andreas Forster Venture-Captain, Germany—Hamburg |
That's true for PCs, but we're talking about GM credit here. As far as I know, the GM doesn't choose the character to apply the chronicle to at the start of the scneario/module, but when he distributes the chronicles.
But of course, this means, if you plan to apply both a player chronicle for a multi-session module and a GM chronicle to the same character, you can only do so if you don't apply the GM chronicle while the character is "locked" in the module.
But I believe if, for example, both the player chronicle and the GM chronicle are awarded for a 3-session module, you could start GMing when your character is still locked in the second session as a player, because he will have finished playing before you apply the GM chronicle.
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
Derek Weil |
Ok, my character is locked into a module until December.
Now I GM an in-persongame on November 4.
Why can't I hold that GM chronicle until the PC becomes free again? How is that any different from holding it until he's level-appropriate, for instance?
AFTER the PC finishes the mod, he gets 3 XP and 4 PP. The very next instant I apply the GM chronicle for 1 XP and 2 PP.
How is this a problem? I know other online/in-person GM's who have held a GM chronicle and applied it in just this way. Unless you can quote me chapter and verse stating otherwise, I have to assume it's OK.
Paz |
How is this a problem? I know other online/in-person GM's who have held a GM chronicle and applied it in just this way. Unless you can quote me chapter and verse stating otherwise, I have to assume it's OK.
Here you go:
When you choose to take a Chronicle sheet for GM credit, you must decide which of your characters receives the Chronicle sheet when you fill out the tracking sheet for that table. You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received. The only exception is when you hold a higher-tier Chronicle for a lower-tier character.
Say you're playing your PC in a PBP game from 1 Sep - 31 Oct. You can't apply any GM credit during that period, either for F2F games played in their entirety, or other PBP games that finish in that period. You'd violate either the 'apply chronicles in order received' rule or the rule about adjusting characters (applying prestige/XP in this case) while they're locked in an ongoing/multi-session game.
However, if a PBP game you're GMing runs from 1 Oct - 30 Nov, you're OK even though the games overlap, as your PC isn't locked when the time comes to apply the credit.
What you're suggesting seems reasonable, but according to the current rules, such a character isn't PFS-legal.
Derek Weil |
I hear you. Thanks for finding the right part of the guide! I kept reading right over that when I went looking, for some reason.
In this case, my character is 5th level. If I GM'ed a table game at 7-11 I'd be able to hold a credit for him. As soon as he's a free level 6 I can apply anything 1-7, 3-7, or 5-9.
So for now I'm stuck dropping in-person GM creds on a secondary character. This means I fall even further behind my fellow FLGS players, and when all my friends have seeker-level characters, I won't. I'm trying to use a combo of online play credits and GM credits to make up for the fact that I can't play every week.
Them's the breaks, I guess, but this is a massive disincentive for me to GM. I should just sign up for local games the instant they're on Warhorn and then say "too bad" to others who won't get a chance to play. Or I need to have "online only" and "table only" characters to avoid scheduling overlaps.
I kind of feared this might be the official interpretation, so I plan to PM our online VO's to see if something can be done to amend this policy.
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
I think the second option is better, and also less likely to make you sound nasty.
Also, remember, when your friends all have seeker level characters, you will have a 8th level character and a 4th level (online) character.
They will now need to start new 1st level characters, and you can take your offline character to local play, and play him as local character 3 levels ahead of them and now you are the one in the lead, and they are playing catchup.
Hawkwen Agricola |
Derek Weil wrote:How is this a problem? I know other online/in-person GM's who have held a GM chronicle and applied it in just this way. Unless you can quote me chapter and verse stating otherwise, I have to assume it's OK.Here you go:
GtPFSOP v5.0, page 37 wrote:When you choose to take a Chronicle sheet for GM credit, you must decide which of your characters receives the Chronicle sheet when you fill out the tracking sheet for that table. You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received. The only exception is when you hold a higher-tier Chronicle for a lower-tier character.Say you're playing your PC in a PBP game from 1 Sep - 31 Oct. You can't apply any GM credit during that period, either for F2F games played in their entirety, or other PBP games that finish in that period. You'd violate either the 'apply chronicles in order received' rule or the rule about adjusting characters (applying prestige/XP in this case) while they're locked in an ongoing/multi-session game.
However, if a PBP game you're GMing runs from 1 Oct - 30 Nov, you're OK even though the games overlap, as your PC isn't locked when the time comes to apply the credit.
What you're suggesting seems reasonable, but according to the current rules, such a character isn't PFS-legal.
I think that if the passage is taken in context of the the chapter that it is written in, GM rewards, then the argument can be made that the language of that paragraph refers to the fact that GMs must apply the chronicles in the order that they receive the GM chronicles, i.e. you can't GM a Tier 3-7 scenario, then GM a 1-5 scenario, and then apply them in reverse order so that a level 5.2 PC can take advantage of both GM credits or some other iteration that would get the GM's PC higher gold rewards.
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
All the other times this has come up, Staff has been very clear that you cannot apply chrons to PCs mid game, and you must apply chrons when you earn them. Even when you have a tier 3 char and a 5-9 chron, the 5-9 has to be attached to the char immediately, even if they don't benefit for 2 more levels.
Paz |
i.e. you can't GM a Tier 3-7 scenario, then GM a 1-5 scenario, and then apply them in reverse order so that a level 5.2 PC can take advantage of both GM credits or some other iteration that would get the GM's PC higher gold rewards.
Let me clarify something. If you were to assume that you could assign GM credit to a 'locked' PC, and you did the following in two PBP games:
- GM scenario A, starting 1 Aug, ending 1 Oct
- Play scenario B, starting 1 Sep, ending 1 Nov
What order would you apply the chronicles in?
Derek Weil |
That's a difficult situation, to be sure!
My argument would be this:
Let's say I have a level 2 character with exactly 3 chronicles (number just for illustration).
I begin Gm'ing a game on 1 Aug.
My level two enters a game on 1 Sept as a level 2 with 3 chronicles.
I apply the player chronicle for the game finished on 1 Nov, then the Gm chronicle for the one played on 1 Oct.
You're absolutely right that this would appear to fly in the face of RAW.
Honestly, I just wanted clarity and needed to vent my spleen. By tomorrow I'll probably be ok with just doing what I said as my second choice. I have 7 PFS characters, so it's not an issue of someone in need of credit, just finding a character I'm excited about giving it to.
Magabeus |
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I have this same issue, GM'ed 2 modules (Goblins and Goblins Too) today, while the PC I want to apply the credit to is in a PbP game. And unfortunately I did not find the posts in reply to Derek not conclusive when reading the Guide to PF organised play (5.0)
I found these two rules in the guide to PF organised play:
Running Multi-Session Adventures
Since sanctioned modules and Adventure Paths are multisession events, Pathfinder Society characters may not be used in other Pathfinder Society events until they receive a Chronicle sheet for the sanctioned content.
Says nothing about receiving chronicles for GM credit, only about using a PFS PC.
When you choose to take a Chronicle sheet for GM credit, you must decide which of your characters receives the Chronicle sheet when you fill out the tracking sheet for that table. You must apply Chronicle sheets in the order they are received.
Also says nothing about applying credit to a PC that is in a multisession event.
Nothing rules-wise prohibits me from applying the GM chronicles to the PC that is in a multisession event. However I must apply the GM credit immediately (if within Tier) and adjust the PC for these chronicles. The PC could level based on that, with all the effects that has on the current game.
What to do:
My opinion is that I should apply the GM chronicles and the PbP chronicle at the end of the multisession event, in the order I received them (GM's first and then PbP). If the PC was to die in the PbP that is my bad luck.
Is there anything that I have missed? Should this be FAQ'ed?
For the FAQ:
Question: Can I apply a GM chronicle to a PC that is in a multi-session adventure at the moment I fill out the tracking sheet?
kinevon |
Question: Can I apply a GM chronicle to a PC that is in a multi-session adventure at the moment I fill out the tracking sheet?
Answer: No, bvecause you have to apply the chronicle immediately, anmd you acannot, since the PC is in the middle of adventuring.
The reason for the rule, and why this would be the answer, is that a chronicle applied in the middle of a multi-session adventure can:
1) literally, level the PC out of being legal for the adventure.
2) could change the APL for the adventure, even if the level bump isn't enough to take the PC out of tier
3) Changes the materials available for the PC, even if they don't change level, as they suddenly have more money and fame and prestige then they did when they started the adventure.
Overall, if a PC is locked into a multi-part adventure, they are locked into a multi-part adventure, and cannot receive GM credit nor be played elsewhere, while they are locked into the mult-part adventure.
Above is my opinion, but that is where the cannot play the PC in two different games at the same time rule is pointing: You cannot change your PC in the middle of a game, whether the change is from player or GM credit.
Magabeus |
Overall, if a PC is locked into a multi-part adventure, they are locked into a multi-part adventure, and cannot receive GM credit nor be played elsewhere, while they are locked into the mult-part adventure.
(emphasis mine)
That is not what the rules quoted in my post say. I have found nothing that prevents me from applying a GM chronicle. Have you?I totally agree that applying a chronicle in the middle of the game opens a can of issues that we do not want. Therefore I would like clarity on this. I could live with the answer you scetched (and think it is the most simple answer).
Funny thing is that I just discovered that there is no problem at the moment, it nowhere says that you have to apply the GM credit directly, you just receive it at the moment you fill out the tracking sheet. You can then apply the chronicle at the moment the PbP concludes, before applying the PbP chronicle.
Mike Hadfield |
The issue with the current rules is they don't take into account PBP very well(understandably, as PBP likely barely existed when the rules were drawn up).
As someone who plays almost exclusively PBP, my characters are locked into a game 98% of the time, because as soon as one game ends we typically begin another. So we have a two or three day break before the character is once again locked in.
What this means is if I GM a game, I can never apply credit to the PCs I actually play(only to brand new or otherwise unplayed PCs). The only way I could apply it to the PCs that I actually play is if by random chance a game I was GMing just happened to finish in the 2-3 day grace period between PC games.
This seems unnecessarily limiting for PBP GMs, though I don't dispute that it seems like the rules are currently written this way. However I see no reason that PBP GMs should not be able to hold and apply their GM credit until a particular PC ends their PBP game.
Given that it takes almost 6 months for a PBP character to gain 1 level, it's not like PBP players are going to all of a sudden begin levelling characters out of control if allowed to apply their GM credit in such a fashion. On the contrary, it simply allows them to properly take advantage of the GM reward system, ie a chronicle sheet.
I guess what I'm saying is that the rules were not designed for PBP, and to apply them as such diminishes the value of GMing considerably.
Does anyone really feel that if I GM a game from Aug 1-Oct 1, and apply that credit to a PC once he finishes his Sep 1-Oct 15 game, that it should be against the rules? If so why?
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
Funny thing is that I just discovered that there is no problem at the moment, it nowhere says that you have to apply the GM credit directly, you just receive it at the moment you fill out the tracking sheet. You can then apply the chronicle at the moment the PbP concludes, before applying the PbP chronicle.
In several other threads, staff have clarified that the chronicle must be applied immediately, on the date it is received.
Derek Weil |
Ok, so what do I do in this case:
I will be running some live Tier 3-7 games in December. I have only 2 characters of that level, and both are involved in PBP games right now.
Is there any reason I can't hold the chronicle for them and apply it as soon as one of them finishes?
Otherwise I could hold the chronicle for another character and wait until they hit level 3, but I don't see how that would be any better.
Derek Weil |
Right, your post above highlights the key rules above, which was very helpful.
Should I just hold the chronicle for one of my other, lower-level, characters?
Right now my only characters above level 2 are both in PBP games. If they are still in those games when I run my tables early next month, what are my options with the chronicles?
The rules clearly allow me to assign them to a level 2 and apply them once they hit level 3. Since that's the only option outlined in the rules, it's probably what I must do.
I'm hoping that someone on the campaign staff sees this thread and finds a way to address this PBP issue.
As Mike Hadfield said above, it's not uncommon to get a character into a new game a couple days after one ends. So unless your GM games ends exactly during that window, you're stuck dumping the GM credit onto a fresh character.
So not only do I want to know what the rules are, I also am quite happy to see a discussion of what they should be. Is there anyone I should contact at Paizo directly to see if we can get this issue some attention?
Mike Hadfield |
As a brief aside, by hard-lining GMs to not hold and apply credit to PCs currently locked in, it could in theory create some really annoying activities by GMs.
For instance, if a game I'm GMing is probably going to finish next week, but I think my PC will be locked in for another 2 weeks, I can simply delay my PBP game by being a crappy GM and not posting frequently. Then when my game finishes two weeks later, I can apply the credit legally to my PC(instead of illegally holding the credit).
Obviously I wouldn't do this, but a PBP game can take as long as a GM wants(a GM can also push adventures on quite quickly if they choose as well, botting PCs, fast-tracking combat and the like), and there's nothing stopping them from delaying as long as they would need.
Additionally, when does a PBP game end? When the boss goes down? When the last post is made? When the chronicle sheets are issued and the game reported? Again, a GM can delay those things for as long as they like, all in the name of legal credit application.
Again, my question is this: What are the arguments against allowing PBP GMs to apply credit to PCs currently 'locked-in' to a PBP game. Is there potential for abuse I'm not seeing?
Paz |
Mike: I'd be interested in your take on this situation:
If you were to assume that you could assign GM credit to a 'locked' PC, and you did the following in two PBP games:
- GM scenario A, starting 1 Aug, ending 1 Oct
- Play scenario B, starting 1 Sep, ending 1 Nov
What order would you apply the chronicles in?
Derek Weil |
Mike, Paz, and others (if there are other takers):
I currently have 7 PFS characters. They are the following classes levels:
Ranger 5
Rogue 1
Cleric 4
Fighter 1/Rogue 1
Gunslinger 1
Wizard 2
Fighter 2
Currently all except the Gunslinger are locked into PBP games.
Now I GM my 3-7 game. It could be a 5-9 game or heck even a 7-11 game. In that case I'd have a chronicle with no one to apply it to.
This is a different situation than the one I described in my OP, and different from what you're suggesting Paz.
If I only ran and played live games, and I ran something at a higher level than any of my PCs, I'd "apply" the credit to one of them, but only really adjust the character sheet when the PC was at the appropriate level.
Right now, I don't have a free character who's level-appropriate. So what can I do?
Where does the chronicle go? To some as-yet-uncreated character who must still wait until he's leveled to get it?
Mike Hadfield |
Mike: I'd be interested in your take on this situation:
If you were to assume that you could assign GM credit to a 'locked' PC, and you did the following in two PBP games:
- GM scenario A, starting 1 Aug, ending 1 Oct
- Play scenario B, starting 1 Sep, ending 1 NovWhat order would you apply the chronicles in?
Assuming that I wanted to apply the credit from scenario A to my PC in scenario B, I would apply credit from scenario B, and then scenario A. Which strictly speaking, would be illegal. Mind you, as I understand it so would applying scenario A, and then scenario B.
Basically there is no legal way to assign the scenario A credit to the PC that played scenario B. Which also means there is basically no way for a PBP player to assign GM credit to a PC that they regularly play(only new or unplayed PCs would be legal).
My suggestion would be to change things such that the scenario A credit is 'held' until such a time as the PC finishes the current scenario. At that juncture(after the scenario), all 'held' credit is immediately applied in the order it was received. Keep in mind that the reporting of the scenario has already been done, so the GM has already chosen which PC will receive 'immediate credit' back at the time the scenario was reported.
What do you think of that suggestion Paz? Does that seem reasonable? Or are there reasons for NOT allowing that(and yes, making things overly complicated for staff counts as a reason :) ).
Mike Hadfield |
Mike, Paz, and others (if there are other takers):
I currently have 7 PFS characters. They are the following classes levels:
Ranger 5
Rogue 1
Cleric 4
Fighter 1/Rogue 1
Gunslinger 1
Wizard 2
Fighter 2Currently all except the Gunslinger are locked into PBP games.
Now I GM my 3-7 game. It could be a 5-9 game or heck even a 7-11 game. In that case I'd have a chronicle with no one to apply it to.
This is a different situation than the one I described in my OP, and different from what you're suggesting Paz.
If I only ran and played live games, and I ran something at a higher level than any of my PCs, I'd "apply" the credit to one of them, but only really adjust the character sheet when the PC was at the appropriate level.
Right now, I don't have a free character who's level-appropriate. So what can I do?
Where does the chronicle go? To some as-yet-uncreated character who must still wait until he's leveled to get it?
I'm not actually sure what the proper protocol there is, particularly if you were playing at 7-11.
I think(I don't know for sure) that you would need to apply that credit to a brand new character, adjusting the gold down to 500. As I understand it you couldn't hold that to apply to a PC that is currently playing in a game.
---
To be clear on my own position, I don't think you should be able to run the same PC in multiple games at the same time. Nor do I necessarily think that you should be able to apply credit from We Be Goblins, First Steps, or a pregen to a PC currently in a game(though that is more of a gray area). I'm purely talking about GM credit here.
Paz |
Complexity and adding exceptions to the normal rules purely to accommodate one unusual playing method is my main concern. Right now, the only time a chronicle is held is GM/pregen credit from higher level adventures; this changes that. If I audit a character and see chronicle dates all over the place, how do I know if it's poor record-keeping, or someone who plays lots of overlapping PBP games?
If this is allowed, will people playing modules over several face-to-face sessions demand the same facility?
It wouldn't bother me if the rules were changed to allow this, I'm just concerned about any unintended consequences.
Mystic Lemur |
Mike: I'd be interested in your take on this situation:
If you were to assume that you could assign GM credit to a 'locked' PC, and you did the following in two PBP games:
- GM scenario A, starting 1 Aug, ending 1 Oct
- Play scenario B, starting 1 Sep, ending 1 NovWhat order would you apply the chronicles in?
If I had a level 2 with exactly 3 chronicles, this is how I'd handle it:
1 Sep- begin pbp with character. That character is locked in and cannot be played until the pbp is finished.1 Oct- report session, and assign to character as chronicle #4. Make NO changes to character in play. Purchase no items, spend no prestige, not even add the gold to the sheet.
1 Nov- Assign chronicle to character as chronicle #5. Update character sheet and ITS with any purchases.
If the GM chronicle would force the character out of Tier, then I would apply it to a different character.
Mike Hadfield |
Complexity and adding exceptions to the normal rules purely to accommodate one unusual playing method is my main concern. Right now, the only time a chronicle is held is GM/pregen credit from higher level adventures; this changes that. If I audit a character and see chronicle dates all over the place, how do I know if it's poor record-keeping, or someone who plays lots of overlapping PBP games?
If this is allowed, will people playing modules over several face-to-face sessions demand the same facility?
It wouldn't bother me if the rules were changed to allow this, I'm just concerned about any unintended consequences.
I think those are fair concerns. PFS has enough complexity and added rules as is, and modules certainly bleed over into the same gray area(applying GM credit to PCs 'locked-in' to a module).
Magabeus |
Lots of activity here suddenly!
FYI: I have pointed the online VC to this thread, hope he considers it and gives a reaction.
I do not see any difference between applying GM credit to a PC that is currently in a PBP or in a module. They are both multi-session adventures in my opinion. Can anybody enlighten me on this? Or do you guys see PBP as one long, extended session?
Paz |
Paz wrote:- GM scenario A, starting 1 Aug, ending 1 Oct
- Play scenario B, starting 1 Sep, ending 1 NovIf I had a level 2 with exactly 3 chronicles, this is how I'd handle it:
1 Sep- begin pbp with character. That character is locked in and cannot be played until the pbp is finished.
1 Oct- report session, and assign to character as chronicle #4. Make NO changes to character in play. Purchase no items, spend no prestige, not even add the gold to the sheet.
1 Nov- Assign chronicle to character as chronicle #5. Update character sheet and ITS with any purchases.
So what happens if the PC has 13 prestige before starting either scenario, gains 2 on the GM chronicle, gains 1 more on the player chronicle but dies in the final boss fight. Can he use his 16 prestige to be raised when sorting out final chronicle sheets, even though he only had 13 when he started the scenario? It's this sort of confusion I'd be worried about.
It's interesting that you and Mike chose opposite orders to each other. I wonder how people (who think it's legal) are doing it now?
Paz |
I do not see any difference between applying GM credit to a PC that is currently in a PBP or in a module. They are both multi-session adventures in my opinion. Can anybody enlighten me on this? Or do you guys see PBP as one long, extended session?
I see it as exactly that. PBP game, multi-session module, scenario done in two halves with a long lunch break in the middle; I see all of them as single sessions where the PCs involved are completely untouchable*.
The only exception I'd currently allow is applying holiday boons if the time the game is played includes the relevant period.
Mystic Lemur |
So what happens if the PC has 13 prestige before starting either scenario, gains 2 on the GM chronicle, gains 1 more on the player chronicle but dies in the final boss fight. Can he use his 16 prestige to be raised when sorting out final chronicle sheets, even though he only had 13 when he started the scenario? It's this sort of confusion I'd be worried about.It's interesting that you and Mike chose opposite orders to each other. I wonder how people (who think it's legal) are doing it now?
I don't see a problem with that. So long as they are applying the credit in chronological order, aren't adjusting their character mid session, and aren't holding credit until they "see who needs it" or whatever, I think its within the spirit of the rules. In the case of character death, I would certainly rule whichever way allows the character to come back to life.
Hmm Venture-Captain, Minnesota |
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I am posting a link to Compton’s Statement on PBPs and applying GM Credit, because I got a question on this thread today.
There are a number of situations that arise when we consider the play-by-post format that I don't believe factored heavily when prior campaign staff wrote and revised the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide; it makes the reasonable assumption that nobody could play or GM multiple games simultaneously. With that in mind, I acknowledge that I might be inadvertently contradicting an existing rule that could stand modification or an exception.
Here are my thoughts. Let me know if any of these would have problematic ramifications.
Once a character has started playing an adventure, that character should not receive any further credit until the adventure has concluded. This would not stop someone from assigning further credit to that PC (such as from GMing), but none of that credit would take effect (e.g. grant gold, Prestige, or XP) until the current adventure had concluded. This is to say that no character should spontaneously level up in the middle of an adventure.
At the end of the current adventure, a PC also receives credit for any pending Chronicle sheets, much as if the PC had a bunch of Tier 7–11 GM credits and had just reached 7th level. Similarly, assigning high-level GM credit to a PC that dies before redeeming that credit means that the credit is also lost.
Because a GM receives full credit for running a game, I feel pretty comfortable trusting a PbP GM who starts several such games at about the same time to assign the resulting Chronicle sheets in whatever order—even if those games end on different dates due to different scenario lengths or play speeds. I would, however, encourage GMs to do this only with adventures in the same category, not starting a scenario and a module simultaneously, finishing the module months after the scenario, and claiming module credit first.
Things get sticky in the above example if the GM receives credit for games X and Y, starts playing game A, and finishes GMing game Z only after game A has started. I assume that this would default to the first bullet point, and the GM would just have to assign the credit to that character after game A concludes or assign the credit to a different PC. Would this miss anything or introduce additional difficulties?