I am curious if anyone has tried a variant on the variant with damage reduction/defense scores that doesn't involve changing the armor class. So a fighter with 12 DEX, Scale Mail (+5 AC) and a Light Shield (+1 AC) would have an AC 17 and DR/adamantine 6. It sounds like it would be a bit extreme, but I'm trying to come up with a way to allow my healerless party to feel heroic without needed to stock up on tons of healing items. Since healing will be harder to come by, it I'm assuming it will make damage to HP feel more serious.
Having played with rules like this, I would not reccomend it. It feels weird, and it slows down combat a lot. If you want a system that allows you to get away with needing less healing, I would suggest you look here
I am curious if anyone has tried a variant on the variant with damage reduction/defense scores that doesn't involve changing the armor class. So a fighter with 12 DEX, Scale Mail (+5 AC) and a Light Shield (+1 AC) would have an AC 17 and DR/adamantine 6. It sounds like it would be a bit extreme, but I'm trying to come up with a way to allow my healerless party to feel heroic without needed to stock up on tons of healing items. Since healing will be harder to come by, it I'm assuming it will make damage to HP feel more serious.
Considering that a shield should improve AC and not DR, think about something very simple, like Light Armor = DR 1/-, Medium Armor = DR 2/- and Heavy Armor = DR 3/- all stackable with other armor-granted DR benefits like those gained through class features.
Tagging along with what Charender said, the problem with everyone having DR is that it slows thing down because you have to subtract the DR from EVERY damage roll ever. This gets incrementally worse at higher levels as more characters and creatures get iterative attacks (or the attackers at that point have the means to bypass the DR, making it useless). But that's a problem is with the DR mechanic in general--it's a sloppy, antiquated thing in my opinion that should have been done away with a long time ago.
If the problem you are having is related to healing, the solution should be related to fixing healing, not improving character defense. I heartily second the suggestion of using the Strain-Injury variant rules.
You might also consider beefing up the effects of the Heal skill, allowing it to heal more hit points with better successes, etc.
My idea was to do armor as DR as well as a slight Deflection Bonus to AC for certain kinds of armor. Typically plate or scale would deflect, as well as billowy cloth or leather, because it obscures your form and makes you harder to aim at.
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Tagging along with what Charender said, the problem with everyone having DR is that it slows thing down because you have to subtract the DR from EVERY damage roll ever.
Disagree.
Since he is considering combining DR with the existing AC system he could just as easily have DR subtract damage from the first attack each round or have a soak point per round instead of per attack. It's a bit wonky, but it would:- Reduce overall damage taken per encounter (low healing game).
- Give the mechanical function of different types of armor actually reducing damage.
This gets incrementally worse at higher levels as more characters and creatures get iterative attacks (or the attackers at that point have the means to bypass the DR, making it useless.
No different that the infinite small piddly numbers and buffs you need to track already, so I don't see them as worse and in fact I think they have more game value for martial characters where armor is a big part of their profile vs. innumerable "add +1 from X ability this round" stacking that already goes on in PF combat. I would also go the route of eliminating things that "bypass DR". This does many good things for the game - it helps eliminate golf bag syndrome, it also makes single foe encounters much more viable since DR per attack is a great tool to counter action economy.
That being said, adding any extra system is going to slow things down, so the Op may want to consider removing some buffs or other trackables if he is going to be implementing a DR per attack rule in his game.
But that's a problem is with the DR mechanic in general--it's a sloppy, antiquated thing in my opinion that should have been done away with a long time ago.
The irony here is that DR (as it appears in D&D and PF) was a 3rd edition invention and is a relatively new concept to the D&D brand. Gamma World III (1986 edition) had a DR per round mechanic that I started using while still running 1st edition AD&D. Once I used Armor as DR I never looked back and every system that uses armor to deflect hits/abstraction defense and does not soak damage I now view as being subpar (IMO of course).
If the problem you are having is related to healing, the solution should be related to fixing healing, not improving character defense.
The OP has a group that is not going to be using heavy healing, so existing hps are a bigger currency/impact tool for the game he wants to run. Focusing on healing doesn't sound like the solution he was looking for and instead was looking at damage prevention.
I don't pretend to have solutions (since I think d20 gaming is mostly broken) but the Op can change a few (major) things in his game so that there is less damage to go around (in addition to adding DR).
- Change how much damage attacks do (eliminating crit damage multipliers and replacing it with another, non-hp related effect)
- Change damage multipliers - flaming enhancement on weapon adds only 1 point of fire damage not 1d6, power attack only adds damage on a -1 to +1 basis, etc.
Not dumping on you DQ, I just see more solutions than "fix healing" as a solution to the Ops problem. Of course this all depends on how much work the Op wants to put into his game to get the play he is looking for.
You might also consider beefing up the effects of the Heal skill, allowing it to heal more hit points with better successes, etc.
This is one area where I will agree with you 100%. For the times that they are going to use a mundane style healing check, it should have a bigger impact on making sure the game doesn't stall due to low hp.
Also, while I don't like 4th edition - throwing in some kind of second wind mechanic wouldn't be a bad idea to help keep the group going from encounter to encounter.
Some DR considerations (some harder to manage than others):
Stretch DR (DR pool). So if you have a DR of 6 per round it could function more like DR 2 (6 points total), so the first 3 attacks get 2 points reduced (total 6).
Fixed DR. DR 3/- vs. everything (including energy attacks)
Conditional DR. DR 5/3 (Slashing & Piercing/Bludgeoning) Different types of armor effectiveness vs. different kinds of weapons.
So DR 5/3 (Slashing & Piercing/Bludgeoning) with an AC of 22 is hit with a Mace on a 27. Since that is +5 over needed to hit, the targets DR only provides DR 1 vs. the mace attack (vs. its normal DR 3 vs. bludgeoning).
Another option would be to simply give everyone max hit points.
Stuff
It still slows things down. I have tried all sorts of Armor as DR systems, and they all have issues.
1. They really hurt character who rely on lots of attacks. Meanwhile the big bruising two-handers are almost completely unaffected.2. Most of the systems dramatically slow combat down.
3. They run into all sorts of weird edge cases, like two low strength combatants being unable to hurt each other.
The Strain/Injury rules are only a slight increase in bookkeeping, they increase realism, and they allow the party to get by with a lot less healing on average without completely eliminating the need for healing.
If it helps at all, we've been using this alternate hit point system with great success:
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Alternate Hit Points & Healing:
Damage from critical hits, sneak attacks/precision damage, bleed effects and failed saving throws are considered Lethal damage. All else is considered Non-Lethal.
Lethal damage heals at a rate of Con modifier per extended rest (min 1) or HD+Con modifier (minimum 1) per full day of rest.
Non-Lethal damage heals at a rate of 50% after a short rest and 100% after an extended rest.
Characters who have suffered more than 50% of their HP in Non-Lethal damage are Fatigued.
Characters who have suffered more than 50% of their HP in Lethal damage are Exhausted. Spell casters Exhausted in this way must make Concentration checks to cast spells.
Magical healing heals lethal damage first.
We ourselves play in a low magic environment and in a world where wands and scolls utilizing divine magic (i.e. cure spells) work only for members of the faith which created the item. After all, divine magic shouldn't be able to be bottled up and sold off to the highest bidder, believer or not - how easily could such a thing fall into the wrong hands?
This method eliminates the constant need for magical healing while effectively imposing penalties on characters who have been seriously injured. Its worked out superbly well with minimal book-keeping.
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StuffIt still slows things down. I have tried all sorts of Armor as DR systems, and they all have issues.
Anything you add to the system is going to slow things down unless you take other things out, like trackable/duration buffs.
1. They really hurt character who rely on lots of attacks. Meanwhile the big bruising two-handers are almost completely unaffected.
Right now the game is very heavily in favor of TH weapons (Damage bonus, PA damage bonus), you drop a few of these things (find the sweet spot) and you can make TWF and TH both become viable concepts.
For the record I don't agree with the OP going with full normal AC calculations and high end DR calculations (his AC 17, DR 6 example). I would probably lean more towards a DR 3/2/1 heavy/medium/light armor formula vs. DR 5 or 6's just to keep lighter weapons/multiple attacks viable.With some effort it can work.
2. Most of the systems dramatically slow combat down.
Considering the fact that most of these rules are not heavily tested for optimal use I would say that this point is not a valid reason to try to come up with something that does work.
3. They run into all sorts of weird edge cases, like two low strength combatants being unable to hurt each other.
And this can be fixed by:
Lowering the DR thresholdHaving a finesse related/DR work-around (which should exist in a DR system to begin with).
You can also make several adjustments on how damage works vs. DR - by using minimal damage rules for successful attacks.
So two low strength goblins facing who each other in full plate armed with daggers would do a minimum of 1 pt of damage per hit when they hit, even vs. their DR 3/- armor that they are wearing. And on higher to-hit or critical rolls against each other they can reduce or negate DR entirely. That or take a tradeoff up front with negatives to-hit so they can bypass or reduce DR.
It comes down to how much you want it to play in your game and addressing issues of corner cases via play testing. Something that wasn't part of the 3rd ed or PF objective goals when launching the two rule sets is going to have to be tested and the core rules may need to be tweaked to accommodate the system you do want to run.
The Strain/Injury rules are only a slight increase in bookkeeping, they increase realism, and they allow the party to get by with a lot less healing on average without completely eliminating the need for healing.
Which is great, but it does nothing for people who want armor to do what armor is supposed to do: protect the wearer from damage.
Those advocating the strain/injury rules are using a meta system to get around another meta-problem, and that is: armor only protects you from being hit and the system is incredibly binary (hit or miss). This falls flat for some people for several reasons - personal preference and immersion being the biggest.