whos your favorite empyreal lord?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I've always been drawn to Falayna, for whatever reason. Which is odd when I think about it because Iomedae makes her redundant, but all the same I think she makes a nice compliment.

One of my favorite characters is a rivethun dwarf warpriest of Falayna. Though she admits that had she been born on a more peaceful world in a more peaceful time, she probably would have followed Arshea.

Dark Archive

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Ashava, Black Butterfly, Irez, Jaidz, Soralyon and Ylimancha, for various reasons.

If I had to pick just one, it would probably be Soralyon, by a hair.

But I also love, love, love some of the names from the Bestiary that never got fleshed out, like the Archons (p 18) Cocidus, Hawk-keeper or Ogoun, of Fire and Iron, or Azata (p 23) Muyingwa, the Seed Thrower or Ibeji, the Twins. Evocative as all heck!

Liberty's Edge

A fan of Keltheald here. We've got a cleric who follows them in the game I run.

Scarab Sages

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My favorites are difficult to choose, there are a lot of them to like. Black Butterfly is certainly one.

I have a Lythertida worshipper in a CotCC campaign. She's a slayer with the personal version of the drug addict campaign trait and an orphan. She learned about Lythertida from a cheap book on the "Empyreal Cults of Magnimar" she picked up at a used bookstore. She decided to become a worshipper even though she doesn't really know much about her and is having to make it up as she goes. She's probably the only one in Korvosa.

Silver Crusade

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"Grandmother doesn' get a lot 'f mention in these sorts of discussions, because she's a wise ol' bird what knows what's what. She knows when you're bein' lazy or taking the easy way, and she rewards you when you do the hard work.

Every day of living is hard work, otherwise, what'd be the point of living?

Might not feel like it, but even the easiest of labor days have some test or challenge out there, to be a good person, to improve yourself, help others, and generally not be egg-shards to one another.

Didn't really have much in th' way 'f religion growing up, but after seeing one of my grandchicks cut down in the senseless dueling what happens over in Kwanlai, it was a priest of Andoletta that helped me through that dark place and stiffened my resolve to move my remaining family across the World Spine to get them a better life.

It's been a bit of an adventure so far, an' folks generally tend to be decent, even the ones that folks 'd call evil but what haven't been given a chance t' be Good.

Talk t' folks, y'll be surprised what you can learn sometimes!

Andrietta is a paladin of Andoletta, and so far she's had a tea party with an orc tribe that wasn't too horrible, started a mandragora on an uncertain morality path towards Good, and generally is a wise old grandmother what pays attention and tries to help others.


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I don't know a whole lot about the Empyreal Lords but Benorus, Dammerich and Vildeis seem interesting. But my favorite is Kelinahat .I love the idea of a LG deity of stealth and espionage. She's the Epyreal Lord of the !@#$% Batman.

Shadow Lodge

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My favourites would have to be Eritrice, Olheon, Shei, and Zohls, since they have things to do with understanding and responsibility. I also like the idea of Winlas, venerating religious observances and ceremony, regardless of the faith itself so long as it helps the people involved. I might want to make up a faithful of Winlas, who likes reading sacred scriptures of other Good and Neutral faiths.

Of course, considering how every type of fiend has a "feminine-looking seductress" version, I was happy and relieved to find the inclusion of two empyreal lords of sexuality and maturation.


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Arshea, Ghenshau, and Lymneris are all probably among most interesting for me, personally. I also like Korada.

Really don't like Dammerich. I find it interesting how the books frame Ragathiel as like a borderline outcast who's walking a thin and uncertain line, yadda yadda yadda, but Dammerich's fine and other empyreal lords are totally fine with him. Ragathiel's got a super extreme obedience, but Dammerich doesn't. That just strikes me as weird, even aside from the whole "state sanctioned murder is Good!" mess.

Silver Crusade

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Dammerich is the Empyreal Lord of just executions. That in no way shape or form means all executions are Good or that Dam approves of all them. His whole thing, and his followers, is making damn sure whether that the person being executed absolutely deserves to die or not.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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Since I've not seen anybody else mention him: Sinashakti, Empyreal Lord of messengers and wanderers. A patron of storytellers who loves to learn about all beings that inhabit the planes, and to spread that knowledge. Desna herself vaguely bores me for some reason, but Sinashakti as an alternate "god of the road" makes Skipper Daytripper (my Pathfinder Society field agent/Varisian pilgrim cleric 11) happy.

I made up some 'pamphlets' of Sinashakti that I hand out at face to face tables as an 'introduction' from Skipper to Sinashakti, since few players or PCs have ever heard of him, heh.

Liberty's Edge

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Vildeis, absolutely. From her backstory to her following, she definitely gets my vote.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Dammerich is the Empyreal Lord of just executions. That in no way shape or form means all executions are Good or that Dam approves of all them. His whole thing, and his followers, is making damn sure whether that the person being executed absolutely deserves to die or not.

Nobody deserves to die. Every taking of life is wrong. I'm sorry, but I'm kind of non-negotiable on the issue. I can understand why Dammerich (and Ragathiel) came to be - Paizo made sure that both Beckett and Berselius have their visions of what Good is made into print, and it's a smart move given that Americans are something like 70-80% of Paizo's customers, but in my games, he's LN and hangs around with the Good guys causing anything from cheerful support to "WTF Optimus why are Dinobots on our team anyway?", depending on the deity/celestial asked.

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Dammerich is the Empyreal Lord of just executions. That in no way shape or form means all executions are Good or that Dam approves of all them. His whole thing, and his followers, is making damn sure whether that the person being executed absolutely deserves to die or not.
Nobody deserves to die. Every taking of life is wrong.

Do you not have combat in your games?

Also doing a quick look over some of the villains in the Pathfinder setting and modules, yes, there are very much certain people who do deserve to die.

House Thrune, Okeno, White Witches, Okeno, Hook Mountain Ogres, Okeno, Gray Gardeners, Okeno, etc

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Dammerich is the Empyreal Lord of just executions. That in no way shape or form means all executions are Good or that Dam approves of all them. His whole thing, and his followers, is making damn sure whether that the person being executed absolutely deserves to die or not.
Nobody deserves to die. Every taking of life is wrong.

Do you not have combat in your games?

Also doing a quick look over some of the villains in the Pathfinder setting and modules, yes, there are very much certain people who do deserve to die.

House Thrune, Okeno, White Witches, Okeno, Hook Mountain Ogres, Okeno, Gray Gardeners, Okeno, etc

Of course I do have combat. I also generally don't have Good characters at my table. If I do, I expect them to not handle easily any kills which are not done in self-defence or defence of others. Which, given the default murder-hobo-ism of D&D characters, is quite a lot.

And with fantasy settings offering both magical ways of detention much superior to what we have currently AND the ability to raise people from the dead, capital punishment seems almost counter-productive. I mean, why risk somebody raising criminals from the grave when you can plane shift them to Demiplane of Dreary Yet Survivable Loneliness and have a few particularly humourless celestials watch over them?

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Dammerich is the Empyreal Lord of just executions. That in no way shape or form means all executions are Good or that Dam approves of all them. His whole thing, and his followers, is making damn sure whether that the person being executed absolutely deserves to die or not.
Nobody deserves to die. Every taking of life is wrong.

Do you not have combat in your games?

Also doing a quick look over some of the villains in the Pathfinder setting and modules, yes, there are very much certain people who do deserve to die.

House Thrune, Okeno, White Witches, Okeno, Hook Mountain Ogres, Okeno, Gray Gardeners, Okeno, etc

Of course I do have combat. I also generally don't have Good characters at my table. If I do, I expect them to not handle easily any kills which are not done in self-defence or defence of others. Which, given the default murder-hobo-ism of D&D characters, is quite a lot.

And with fantasy settings offering both magical ways of detention much superior to what we have currently AND the ability to raise people from the dead, capital punishment seems almost counter-productive. I mean, why risk somebody raising criminals from the grave when you can plane shift them to Demiplane of Dreary Yet Survivable Loneliness and have a few particularly humourless celestials watch over them?

If someone is going out of their way to resurrect someone (and there are multiple and mundane ways to prevent, make that harder) and has the power/resources to do so then it's not all that inconceivable to have them busted out of a celestial prison. That's assuming there is such a thing and they have enough Celestials for it, Celestials have lots to do and they aren't infinite in number.

When you execute, say, a serial killer, you're preventing more people from being murdered, and also bringing justice to its victims.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:


When you execute, say, a serial killer, you're preventing more people from being murdered, and also bringing justice to its victims.

Yeah, because that worked so fine in this case.

Silver Crusade

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Gorbacz wrote:
Rysky wrote:


When you execute, say, a serial killer, you're preventing more people from being murdered, and also bringing justice to its victims.
Yeah, because that worked so fine in this case.

He was an exception, not the standard.


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That assumes one believes that there is such a thing as a 'just' execution. The notion that the death penalty is a fundamentally evil institution isn't a completely unusual stance. Victor Hugo, for example, has strong anti death penalty stances in a few of his stories.


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I believe that anyone who executes another person will inevitably become evil.

So personally, I find Dammerich ridiculous.

Silver Crusade

I just can't see why killing someone because that did something truly evil and horrible and you're wanting to stop them from committing more horrific acts makes you Evil.

Why is that when a whole part of the game is about fighting, and very likely killing your opponents, not always in self-defense but because you go after them.

In Burnt Offerings Goblins attack a festival, what you do there is self defense, but afterwards when you go to Thistletop to prevent further attacks, that's not self defense, that's preemptive.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rysky wrote:

I just can't see why killing someone because that did something truly evil and horrible and you're wanting to stop them from committing more horrific acts makes you Evil.

It doesn't make you Evil, you aren't rolling over a village with a flaming chainsaw. But this as hell does not make you Good, since you have other, non-lethal alternatives of ensuring that someone won't do evil things, yet you take the fast and easy road. Mama told me never to go fast and easy if you can go slow and hard.

As for pre-emptive strikes - welp, our world doesn't have Always Evil sentient beings, so things do get fuzzy here.

However, Dammerich *does* embody one interesting idea, namely of ensuring that no unnecessary executions ever take place, which is one of the major points against DP in the real world - after all, the system will make a mistake sooner or later and you're left with a dead body of somebody who shouldn't be capital punishment-ed. Which is great material for LN entity, because Lawful Neutrals are all about quality due process, whatever the subject and outcome is.

Silver Crusade

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As easy as it is to break out or get broken out of prisons in places like Golarion? Non-lethal alternatives aren't the best alternatives. You can lock up the level 1 commoners, but the level 5 Barbarian? The level 14 Sorcerer? The Storm Giant?

And Dammerich ensuring no unnecessary executions is his entire reason for existence. If you believe the person is not guilty for what they are being executed for, if there's even the slightest shadow of doubt, then don't do it.

Iomedae, Ragathiel, and Vildeis and their followers are crusaders, they hunt down Evil, they don't wait around until they're attacked.


How is killing someone who killed other people a good thing.

That doesn't bring the victims back.

It's not like prisons are big happy places with sewing circles and tea time at four every day.

I think Captain America: Winter Soldier covered why preemptive strikes are a bad thing better than I could.

There is no such thing as a just execution, you're just going tit for tat.

Silver Crusade

Haven't seen Winter Soldier so can't comment on that.

Killing their murderer doesn't bring them back, but neither does putting them in prison. At least with killing them you make sure they can't kill anyone else*. How is locking a serial killer up and hoping they don't ever escape** a better punishment than execution, how is that one that brings justice and hopefully peace to the victims*** and their families?

*barring that one jackass that murdered almost 1,000 people and caught Lamashtu's eye, he's an outlier though, not all serial killers get promoted to Demon Lord status after they die. Most just are petitioners that, ya'know, suffer. Or get eaten.

**Haunting of Harrowstone shows why this is not a good option.

*** isn't there an Undead that forms if their murder is not avenged? Pretty sure there is but my brain could just be making that up.

Dark Archive

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captain yesterday wrote:
How is killing someone who killed other people a good thing.

Seems pretty basic, that two wrongs don't make a right.

Either killing's wrong, in which case the killer *and* the executioner are doing wrong, *or* killing is not wrong, in which case the killer isn't doing anything the state should be executing him for.

But, more relevantly to this thread, this isn't the real world. It's Golarion. Killing an evil person sends their soul to the lower planes, and makes evil stronger. Redeeming an evil person denies the lower planes / evil gods / demon lords / daemon horsemen / etc. that soul, and instead gives it to the heavens / celestials / good gods.

Dammerich, by promoting the execution of evil beings, is making evil stronger and denying resources to good. Ditto Ragathiel, or various other murder-happy good guys.

It's the game's metaphysics. Souls = power. 'Realism' (or practicality, for that matter) has nothing to do with it.

Plus, again, fantasy world. If your society doesn't have the resources to imprison every single evil-doer it comes across, catch a damn cockatrice and petrify the perps. Much, much cheaper than building a prison, hiring guards and feeding them every day. You may not be redeeming them, but at least you aren't handing them over in a pretty bow to Asmodeus.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Magog wrote:
I don't know a whole lot about the Empyreal Lords but Benorus, Dammerich and Vildeis seem interesting. But my favorite is Kelinahat .I love the idea of a LG deity of stealth and espionage. She's the Epyreal Lord of the !@#$% Batman.

Aw yeah, Kelinahat fans unite. (I played a rogue in Council of Thieves who worshiped her. She was a spy, unsurprisingly.) I'd love for her to get more material at some point.

Other favorites: Black Butterfly, Arshea, Irez, and Soralyon.

Silver Crusade

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Set wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
How is killing someone who killed other people a good thing.

Seems pretty basic, that two wrongs don't make a right.

Either killing's wrong, in which case the killer *and* the executioner are doing wrong, *or* killing is not wrong, in which case the killer isn't doing anything the state should be executing him for.

But, more relevantly to this thread, this isn't the real world. It's Golarion. Killing an evil person sends their soul to the lower planes, and makes evil stronger. Redeeming an evil person denies the lower planes / evil gods / demon lords / daemon horsemen / etc. that soul, and instead gives it to the heavens / celestials / good gods.

Dammerich, by promoting the execution of evil beings, is making evil stronger and denying resources to good. Ditto Ragathiel, or various other murder-happy good guys.

It's the game's metaphysics. Souls = power. 'Realism' (or practicality, for that matter) has nothing to do with it.

Plus, again, fantasy world. If your society doesn't have the resources to imprison every single evil-doer it comes across, catch a damn cockatrice and petrify the perps. Much, much cheaper than building a prison, hiring guards and feeding them every day. You may not be redeeming them, but at least you aren't handing them over in a pretty bow to Asmodeus.

Sending them to prison doesn't redeem them either, they'll die eventually and still get sent to the lower planes. And secondly, some people you can't redeem. If you spare a serial killer or a rapist in an attempt to redeem them what does that say to all their victims? A serial killer or rapist gets a second chance but their victims don't?


Now you're being silly.


Okay, let's unpack a little.

I admit I am measuring my responses a little (the death penalty is a matter I feel very strongly about), though perhaps it's worth saying that the amount of discussion generated justifies its presence in a game. Not boring, after all.

If you're interested in understanding arguments against the death penalty, there's no shortage of individuals, ranging from Victor Hugo to the ACLU, on grounds ranging from ethics to legal positions to religious imperatives. Some of it is a little over my head (my field's music, not matters of metaethics).

True. There are comparisons to be drawn with the more militants figures like Ragathiel and Iomedae. As a pacifist there are certainly arguments to be made there. However, there are other considerations. Iomedae is generally (I admit I haven't finished WotR) more of a 'War for purposes of defense' deity and Ragathiel is deliberately presented to be dubious, and handled more as a character than a personification of concept. There is, however, another key distinction: in a war or self-defense situation, you're doing an act to neutralize a threat so it can't hurt you. With the death penalty, you are killing a threat that is already neutralized. Furthermore, the others at least have an archetypal precedent that makes them easier to swallow (Iomedae is a noble crusader, Ragathiel is a vengeful angel, and Smiad's off to fight the dragons), which... Dammy don't really got.

In the end I'm simply a little perplexed at paizo's handling of the politics. While not perfect, they make an effort to be conscious (for example, the sex-positive empyreal lords in the book), even to the point of making lore errata of sorts (for example, nixing the abortion but from the Zyphus article when it was reprinted in Inner Sea Faiths).


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Tho as a counterpoint to the "just making more fiends" argument, though, it has been indicated in setting that the circumstances of death can actually affect the soul's destination. For example, Corosbel's intentions for Hanspur and Moloch's bestiary entry. Something similar may be implied in the Dammerich entry in CotR. I'd never thought of that.

That's actually a very interesting thing actually. I'll need to think about that...

Still a bit dodgy that it's still kind of a pro death penalty thing (seriously, ask me about Arkansas) but that's a very neat spin on it that I think makes me appreciate it a bit more. So I'm gonna amend from "flat out worst empyreal lord" to "interesting but with some pretty awful political baggage/implications."


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My two cents since this is an issue I feel particularly strongly about myself - in real life I'm opposed to the death penalty except in circumstances of individuals who continue to commit violent crimes while in prison, either by killing guards and/or their fellow inmates or by contracting murders on the outside.

But my opposition to the death penalty is built on the notion that too many innocent people are sentenced to death, not on the notion that execution is inherently wrong. I do very strongly believe that there are individuals who have committed acts so heinous that killing them is a just punishment.

It's not entirely about prevention, though that's part of it. And it certainly isn't entirely about bringing anyone back. It's about punishment. It's about actions having consequences. It's saying that there is a line in the sand that once crossed, what you have done is inherently incompatible with good and decent living to the point that allowing you to continue to breath would represent a moral failing on the part of society.

In the real world that line is blurry and subject to far too much interpretation let alone mistakes that land innocent people on death row.

But in a world where good and evil objectively exist I think it's fair to say that a just execution can objectively exist.

Dark Archive

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PannicAtack wrote:
In the end I'm simply a little perplexed at paizo's handling of the politics. While not perfect, they make an effort to be conscious (for example, the sex-positive empyreal lords in the book), even to the point of making lore errata of sorts (for example, nixing the abortion but from the Zyphus article when it was reprinted in Inner Sea Faiths).

IMO, the attempt has been to be inclusive. And that includes being inclusive to things that I, with my modern sensibilities, don't necessarily like or consider good, but other people clearly do, such as book burning (Ghenshou) or executions (Dammerich). Another person might find an Empyreal Lord of sex workers *vastly* more offensive to their conceptions of 'good' than one of lawful executions, so with every bit of 'inclusion,' there's someone feeling *excluded.*

Whether or not these were overreactions or not, there have been arguments for touchy subjects like gender roles (Erastil) or even genocide (Torag) to be not totally incompatible with being good. (I vaguely recall Naderi, a sympathetic goddess of suicide, being similarly problematic.) From an objective remove, I applaud the notion that not all good is going to be monolithic, or agree with my modern sensibilities, which work for me in a world without soul-devouring daemons or undead or entire species of aggressive expansionist humanoids like orcs and goblins and gnolls who do not make good neighbors and are prone to things like eating, raping and / or selling into slavery human beings.

In some cases, those perceptions (again, whether or not they were ever truly intended that way), have been backed away from and massaged out of the setting (newer write-ups of Erastil, for instance, scrubbed away gender-role stuff, I've heard), but in other cases, such as Ragathiel and Dammerich, they have not, and I think that there's room to be inclusive, and then there's a point where the leadership at Paizo says to themselves, 'Money's cool, yo, but I'm not sure we really *need* the money of people who think that forcing women back into the kitchen or genocide are potentially morally okay.'

I see two sides, 'cause I'm contrary and almost-never helpful;
1) As a seller of a product, do I really want to encourage and enable customers whose beliefs I find morally offensive by tying a 'good' alignment to stuff that I consider sketchy, if not downright evil? I can still sell the *content* (gods fond of genocide, for instance) and just label them evil.
2) As a person in the world, do I really want to encourage and enable the deep divide between 'right-thinking' folk and 'wrong-thinking folk' going on? More and better examples of both 'good' and 'evil' characters and entities that make us uncomfortable (even fans of Ragathiel suggest that he's dancing on a razor's edge...), or lead to at least some of us flailing about and saying, 'they're doing it wrong!' could lead to at least some open-mindedness and softening of tribal boundaries and definitions of 'X is always right' and 'Y is always wrong,' when the truth is more often in the fuzzy morally-relative middle, especially in a fantasy game, where some folk *are* irredeemable, and some books *need* burning.


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PannicAtack wrote:
There is, however, another key distinction: in a war or self-defense situation, you're doing an act to neutralize a threat so it can't hurt you. With the death penalty, you are killing a threat that is already neutralized.

False. To the best of my knowledge outsiders are immortal, and there are many ways to gain immortality. Imprisonment for life (which I'm assuming is your alternative to execution) only actually neutralizes a threat if the entity in question is going to die. Immortal, non-repentant entities are a thing that exists in-game, which does not exist in the real world.

Permenant inprisonment of immortal, non-repentant entities is not a viable solution.

(I'm not particularly arguing for or against the death penalty irl. I'm merely showing that in-game there are situations that can't come up irl, and would thus naturally have a different perspective on morality. I am also not espousing that the case outlined above is common. However it is possible, and given the law of large numbers, fairly likely.)

Dark Archive

SOLDIER-1st wrote:
PannicAtack wrote:
There is, however, another key distinction: in a war or self-defense situation, you're doing an act to neutralize a threat so it can't hurt you. With the death penalty, you are killing a threat that is already neutralized.

False. To the best of my knowledge outsiders are immortal, and there are many ways to gain immortality. Imprisonment for life (which I'm assuming is your alternative to execution) only actually neutralizes a threat if the entity in question is going to die. Immortal, non-repentant entities are a thing that exists in-game, which does not exist in the real world.

Permenant inprisonment of immortal, non-repentant entities is not a viable solution.

To be contrary, as is my wont, permanent imprisonment of an immortal, non-repentant entity is the *only* viable solution, if you can't actually kill a demon without sending it right back home to the Abyss, which is about as effective a deterrent as 'catch and release.'

If the demon (whatever) is summoned, the most you've done is annoy it. If it's called, and the death is 'real,' it's evil spirit still goes back to the Abyss, and has to work it's way back up to being a real threat, which means you've put off the threat it represents for a period of time (which may be centuries, so that's not the worst thing you could have done!).

Killing an outsider is even less effective than killing a mortal evil.

In both cases, flesh to stone or trap the soul or an imprisonment spell (some of which is super-high level, others of which, thanks to petrifying creatures like basilisks, cockatrices and gorgons, or soul-entrapping creatures like cacodaemons, are available at relatively low CR, compared to many outsiders, or improved familiar level 7th) would be more effective than just sending back to their room.

A cockatrice-handler 'executioner' is the quick and easy fix, here.

'Gosh, this town sure has a ton of statues! There's, like, one on every street corner! And they're so lifelike!'

'Yeah, kid, it's really cool. Just don't break any laws, is all I'm sayin...'


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Set wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
PannicAtack wrote:
There is, however, another key distinction: in a war or self-defense situation, you're doing an act to neutralize a threat so it can't hurt you. With the death penalty, you are killing a threat that is already neutralized.

False. To the best of my knowledge outsiders are immortal, and there are many ways to gain immortality. Imprisonment for life (which I'm assuming is your alternative to execution) only actually neutralizes a threat if the entity in question is going to die. Immortal, non-repentant entities are a thing that exists in-game, which does not exist in the real world.

Permenant inprisonment of immortal, non-repentant entities is not a viable solution.

To be contrary, as is my wont, permanent imprisonment of an immortal, non-repentant entity is the *only* viable solution, if you can't actually kill a demon without sending it right back home to the Abyss, which is about as effective a deterrent as 'catch and release.'

If the demon (whatever) is summoned, the most you've done is annoy it. If it's called, and the death is 'real,' it's evil spirit still goes back to the Abyss, and has to work it's way back up to being a real threat, which means you've put off the threat it represents for a period of time (which may be centuries, so that's not the worst thing you could have done!).

Killing an outsider is even less effective than killing a mortal evil.

In both cases, flesh to stone or trap the soul or an imprisonment spell (some of which is super-high level, others of which, thanks to petrifying creatures like basilisks, cockatrices and gorgons, or soul-entrapping creatures like cacodaemons, are available at relatively low CR, compared to many outsiders, or improved familiar level 7th) would be more effective than just sending back to their room.

A cockatrice-handler 'executioner' is the quick and easy fix, here.

'Gosh, this town sure has a ton of statues! There's, like, one on every street...

Again, to the best of my knowledge that's not how that works. Outsiders don't have souls. They are souls, inasmuch as such a distinction is meaningful. I believe that when an outsider dies it is simply broken down into quintessence. I'm not 100% certain of that, but that's how I've understood the process.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I do recall that Pathfinder does not adhere to the D&D concept of defeated outsiders simply being banished home- there's a reason demon lords and the like get that as a sort of perk.


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While the above discussion of ethics/morality is indeed interesting, I would argue that it belongs in another - new - thread.

Let's keep this thread to the more basic "who do you like of the emypreal lords and why?", without discussing other's choices in such detail.


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I like Dammerich because he inspired the unprecedented case where Rysky had the obviously correct and sane moral stance against a bizarre number of crazy people collecting together to argue a fringe position that is soundly rejected in the real world.

Sovereign Court

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Meraki wrote:
Magog wrote:
I don't know a whole lot about the Empyreal Lords but Benorus, Dammerich and Vildeis seem interesting. But my favorite is Kelinahat .I love the idea of a LG deity of stealth and espionage. She's the Epyreal Lord of the !@#$% Batman.

Aw yeah, Kelinahat fans unite. (I played a rogue in Council of Thieves who worshiped her. She was a spy, unsurprisingly.) I'd love for her to get more material at some point.

Other favorites: Black Butterfly, Arshea, Irez, and Soralyon.

Kelinahat! She of Ebon Wings definitely needs some expansion so I can build a character who worships her...


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My favorite Empyreal Lord is whichever one ends up gasping out his/her final breaths while impaled on Pazuzu's sword, or even better, hobbled and turned into Dispater's personal footstool for all eternity. Go evil!


SOLDIER-1st wrote:
PannicAtack wrote:
There is, however, another key distinction: in a war or self-defense situation, you're doing an act to neutralize a threat so it can't hurt you. With the death penalty, you are killing a threat that is already neutralized.

False. To the best of my knowledge outsiders are immortal, and there are many ways to gain immortality. Imprisonment for life (which I'm assuming is your alternative to execution) only actually neutralizes a threat if the entity in question is going to die. Immortal, non-repentant entities are a thing that exists in-game, which does not exist in the real world.

Permenant inprisonment of immortal, non-repentant entities is not a viable solution.

(I'm not particularly arguing for or against the death penalty irl. I'm merely showing that in-game there are situations that can't come up irl, and would thus naturally have a different perspective on morality. I am also not espousing that the case outlined above is common. However it is possible, and given the law of large numbers, fairly likely.)

I was talking about the death penalty in real life, and briefly glancing at the real-world objections (which is not a 'fringe position'). Personally my interest in fantasy logistics is somewhat limited.

Shadow Lodge

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Gorbacz wrote:
However, Dammerich *does* embody one interesting idea, namely of ensuring that no unnecessary executions ever take place, which is one of the major points against DP in the real world - after all, the system will make a mistake sooner or later and you're left with a dead body of somebody who shouldn't be capital punishment-ed. Which is great material for LN entity, because Lawful Neutrals are all about quality due process, whatever the subject and outcome is.

It sounds more like you are talking about LG here, not LN. LN wouldn't care if every prisoner was executed for their crimes, if that was the law. LG might, and would be the ones to make sure that everything was done to make sure and it was necessary. LN might just so that if there is a mistake, it doesn't come back on them, but ultimately they wouldn't care about the morality of it. LG is also the alignment that is concerned with the good of the society over the individual, where LN is about everyone following the rules, regardless of the ethics of those rules. That doesn't mean that no LN would care, or that all LG must do everything they can, just a general overall trend.

I would also say LN is a lot more likely to plant evidence, scratch in a name, or whatever if they believe the individual might "get off on a technicality" and they have a personal interest or are being bribed.

I am not for or against the death penalty, but I don't buy that people can't be good and for capital punishment. All that is is either being very close minded or attempting to demonize the other side to make yours sound better.

Liberty's Edge

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I think this is a place where real world morality doesn't have to match up too well with game-world alignment. Like, a masked vigilante beating up people they believe to be criminals is antithetical to my worldview, but I enjoy the heck out of that in superhero TV shows. LG in game can totally go fight a whole swarm of evil humanoids and hold a kangaroo court for executions, because roleplaying a whole trip back to town would not be the kind of fun most groups look for in an RPG*. So if Iomedae can be LG, I think Dammerich definitely meets the specs.

*There's a whole Zogonia strip about this.


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I do like Lymnieris, mainly because of how he helps sex workers. Every time I hear about that vocation in fiction, the "Disposable Sex Worker" trope rears its ugly head. Nice to see someone helping them out for a change! Also, I hope that in the future, we can see an empyreal PrC that combats human trafficking that's associated with Lymnieris.

Ylimancha is also a nice deity to follow. She fights Pazuzu and possibly other evil deities for the souls of all flying creatures, but she also takes care of aquatic-related business. Tactically, she gives her clerics some nice domains and access to the longbow.

Black Butterfly is kind of cool since she has relations to a bunch of gods: she was created by Desna, but also helped Dou-Bral return to Shelyn... just in time for him to turn into Zon-Kuthon. She also actively fights against the Dark Tapestry, possibly making her a literal case of "Punching Out Cthulhu"!

Tanagaar is a pretty good deity to follow, since he grants darkvision and a bonus to sneak attack. I'd say he's a better alternative to Shax's demonic obedience. Also, he watches the borders between worlds, and knowing what kinds of nasty outsiders are trying to breach the walls of Heaven, that duty ought to be commended.

Dark Archive

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First: Kelinahat
If you are wandering through the Shadow Plane, bowing your head to evil to survive, you are only a shadow in the dark. But there is the Ebonwinged, asking you for information. You will infiltrate the evil, be part of it with everything but your heart. And then – you are the cause why the evil will be destroyed.

Second: Ragathiel, the son of the „Angel of Deserved Gifts“
(My a bit darker interpretation. Do not believe the deception of his father!)
You think, he is very unlike his father. The truth is different.
Once Dispater was an Angel. The cause of corruption lies in the heart of everyone, even the purest. He followed his master, where he shouldn't. His loyality to him is greater than everything else. Don't you know he is a politican and metroplitan, who feels the same wrath as his son, but hiding it until the moment comes he is personally betrayed – then to unleash his fury and his dark wings. He never enjoyed it.
His son is like him, but younger, and struggling to direct his wrath against some who deserves it. He gained the trust of heaven, but is still only one step away from loosing it. He is where the master of his father wants him to be. He believes to be free, out of his fiendish bonds.
The truth is – he is wrong.
His father isn't that evil (although surely sufficient evil). And every piece of Ragathiel's angelic beeing is based in him.
He believes to fight against Hell, but how could he, if he is manipulated by its master himself?
He can run where he want, he will never forget his true home, where the place on his father's side is free... and waiting patiently for his return.
(Surely everything of this is wrong. Ragathiel is the great empyreal lord of the good and the honor and the ... oh, Vengeance. Right.)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Dammerich- Not for the execution stuff, but for the rooting out corruption in places of "justice| part.

Arshea- The world needs Arshea's and they really resonated with me.

Jaidz- A cat who is the patron of cowards and youth. I always wanted to play character who was chosen by Jaidz..the scared kid who grows up to be a hero.

Dalenydra- The world can always use a few more healers.

Acquisitives

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

anyhoo, for the lulz, about two months ago i rolled up a prospective character for playing in Ironfang Invasion using the ULTIMATE CAMPAIGN rules.

Although I wanted a pretty positive, LG Cavalier, I kept coming up with all these death and near death things, and death experiences.

So... I thought... okay... what are some of these death gods... Urgathoa, Apollyon, and what do they have in common... oh... it's A SICKLE.

hmm...

What gods have a Sickle as their holy weapon?

Urgathoa - God of Undeath
Dieceid - Daemon Harbinger of EXTINCTION
Deskari - Demon Lord of Locusts
Apollyon - Horseman of Pestilence
Iaozrael - Infernal Duke of the alt-right

and then there's two, far more obscure others:

Madgh - Eldest of Fate
Svarozic - Empyreal Archon Lord of all these really good things.

And I was like... oh. Wow.

So, my guy he's like haunted by a vision of a sickle as a result of his death and near death experiences. And he's not sure what this means - but the sickle is the sign of all these really terrible guys. UNDEATH. EXTINCTION. PESTILENCE. NOSTALGIA. INFESTATIONS. But he's not going down like that. And it doesn't exactly make sense - why would these things spare him? Is he doomed so some vile purpose? No... so he resolved as a young man to fight against these cruel forces.

And he's kind of a scholar, and he's spent some time reading and he came across some mystical writings about this being known as Svarozic. And he's adopted this obscure figure as his patron, which is why his Cavalier Order is the Blue Rose.

BUT... you could play around with Madgh in the depths of the Fangwood. Maybe he wasn't spared by Svarozic and launched on some great cause. Maybe he was marked by the Eldest of Fate for some fey purpose.

Anyhow, just wanted to share my little character creation / empyreal lord story. Maybe I'll get to play it out some day.

Silver Crusade

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oh dear, picking just one...

ummm


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Dammerich's obedience is nice, though: you have to meditate on those you killed and reflect on them in light of the law. It adds a lot of depth to what might have been simply another "lawful stupid" deity.

Ghenshau is a pretty cool defier of norms as well; his overall demeanor suggests he would be Chaotic Good, but he's actually Lawful. A non-uptight deity of order is always nice to have, at least in my eyes!


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Ragathiel is one I like to play. Smite the demons first and ask questions later. The redemptive aspect, too, is nice. However rare, it's good to see a being who can overcome his nature.

Eritrice is closer to my real-life outlook, as a philosophy minor who's thinking about Law School. Debate and Truth are two of my favorite things. Yes, 99% of lawyers worship Asmodeus and give the rest a bad name, but the other 1% need a deity too.

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