A friend of mine wants to create a character that uses throwing axes, making throwing said weapon his main method of attack, and using them as melee weapons as needed.
The problem is, neither of us have any idea how this would work.
Is there some archetype we're missing, or is a simple matter of picking a general class and getting a bunch of throwing feats.
I saw the Hurler Barbarian archetype, but it's really not even an archetype... It's kinda pathetic, really. XD
Anyways, help? =3
Edit- We're looking for a workable character, not an optimal character. We have no delusion that this could possibly be optimal lol.
I understand that they're a thing, I'm just asking if anyone has some workable build ideas.
Sorry if that was unclear. C=
Sadly, I haven't seen any viable thrown weapons build in PF so far... at least not without using homebrew and/or 3.5 stuff.
Because bows are the only ranged weapon with the right to not suck.
Hm, that's unfortunate.
We'll have to see if we can work with the GM to make something work, like allowing thrown weapons to use anything that applies to bows?
Or would that be OPd?
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Your solution is just one item and its upgrade, "BELT OF MIGHTY HURLING, LESSER/GREATER"
With this you will use your strength for ranged attack rolls and improve thrown weapon range by 10ft.
Go Ranger with Two Weapon Combat Style and focus mainly on strength.
I'll try to make a build for you if you like later.
That could work too... Hm.
I try and make a decent build using that idea before asking the GM for any help, I really hate doing that lol. Tnx. ^_^
Edit- Just saw your post Regrs, that's another great idea. I'd love to see a build; the more help we can get the better lol.
A few suggestions:
- Allow a 3.5 feat that allows you to use Str instead of Dex for attack rolls with thrown weapons. Kinda like an inverse Weapon Finesse. I think it was named "Brutal Thrower". Belt of Mighty Hurling takes your way-too-precious Belt item slot and costs way too much.
- Make it so that the Throw Anything feat increases the range of thrown weapons to 30ft. Then 60ft at BAB +8 and 90ft at BAB +16.
- Create magic item named Hurling Gloves or some such that works like AoMF, but affects thrown weapons instead of unarmed strikes and natural attacks.
- Don't bother keeping track of thrown daggers. It's just as boring and pointless as keeping track of arrows.
None of these things would make thrown weapons OP. They'd merely be viable. And still inferior to longbows, if that bothers someone...
Those are great ideas to bring up to the GM if a viable build can't be made, so thank you. C=
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Two-Handed Thrower (Combat)
You hurl weapons with both hands and with great force, sometimes using a whirling technique to send your weapon flying through the air at tremendous speeds.
Prerequisite: Str 15.
Benefit: Whenever you use two hands to throw a one-handed or two-handed weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus. Using two hands to throw any weapon requires only a standard action for you. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus on thrown weapon damage, regardless of available hands. Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.
Close-Quarters Thrower (Combat)
You are agile enough to avoid melee attacks while throwing weapons or bombs.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Weapon Focus with selected thrown weapon.
Benefit: Choose a type of thrown weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks using the selected weapon. If you are an alchemist, and you select this feat and choose alchemist bombs, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for the process of drawing components of, creating, and throwing a bomb.
Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normal Two weapon fighting stuff as well.
Thank you sir, both feats are sure to help this build tremendously. C=
I believe blackbloodtroll had a throwing build/thread going on a while back, and to be fairly honest it was a more than decent build.
Also, a goz mask will help when throwing through visual impairments.
Strong arm, supple wrist trait is interesting for throwers.
Define "workable" in your context.
After all, on the forums, "workable" can generally mean viable, optimal, etc.
In terms of throwing builds being "optimal," fact is they are not. They require investing in feats that Two-Handed Fighters, Sword and Boards, and/or even Two-Weapon Fighters have no use for, and require separate feats to fulfill both ranged and melee capabilities effectively. Those feats and resources invested in two separate entities of fighting diminishes what could've been spent elsewhere, making the character that much more effective in comparison.
Of course, In terms of it being a "viable" build, it would take some levels before progress is made, but it can have some payoff. It's a lot like building Dervish Dance; the first levels before you get your payoff are going to be difficult, but once completed, has a reward all its own.
As far as the specifics are concerned, the Close-Quarters Thrower feat will most likely be a requirement for the character to work effectively. Generally, feats with the word "Thrower" in them are most likely required in addition to the other feat taxes.
From there, the rest is open for how the player wants the character to behave or work. Axes, Javelins, Swords, whichever he prefers. And whatever armor he can or choose to wear.
Currently looking for blackbloodtrolls thread, tnx for pointing me in that direction, and for the feats. C=
I most definitely meant viable, a I have no delusion of this character being optimal lol. I'll go back and fix that in my original post.
Thanks everyone for the input so far. ^_^
Arcane strike seems like an excellent option for a thrower build, especially one focusing on TWF or some other mass attack style.
Arcane strike works well for thrower builds since it adds 1-5 extra damage with all of your "weapons" in return for a swift action, and it allows all of your attacks to pierce DR/magic. With that and special materials (and maybe some shuriken covered in alignment spell oils since they count as ammo, and thus 50 per spell), you can pierce just about any DR you come across without the need for throwing expensive magical weapons around.
It might seems strange, since martial classes tend to be the throwers, but you can get arcane strike without too much trouble as long as you have an SLA, since it counts for spell casting. Racial SLA's tend to be the best option, since they always use your level as caster level (which determines how much extra damage arcane strike does). Trait SLA's only use CL 1 or your highest CL earned through classes....which works out well if you play ranger since it only misses out on a few CL. Rogues can also get an SLA through their rogue talents.
Of course, my personal pick for a class might just be the dawnflower dervish bard (that is the one that gets dervish dance as a bonus feat). While it might seem like it would be best to use the dervish dancer style with that archetype, its alterations to performances actually make it far better for a style with a high number of attacks. You see, it gets double bonuses on inspire courage and a few other key performances, in return for only having that performance work on them. That means +2 to attack and damage at level 1, which is basically the same as rage for a TWF build, and it eventually gets +10 to attack and damage, allowing them to compete with fighters for high DPR. So add arcane strike on top of that, and you can easily go around as a thrower just by using a build similar to a TWF rogue.
Checking out your build now Markus, thanks for that.
lemeres, while that certainly sounds very interesting, I'm confused about 1 thing... What does SLA mean? XD I'm a total n00b. XD
There are many options to make a throwing specialist character. It depends what flavor you want.
A Rogue (Sniper Archetpye) focuses more on sneak attacks with his thrown weapons so Strength is not as essential.
I like Chakrams, because... they give me that Xena feel XD
Also there is the Agile weapon enchantment. It's only for melee weapons, but you can use most throwing weapons as melee weapons and it does not say the effect stops if they are thrown. Better ask the GM ^^
Barbarian has several options.
Raging Hurler combined with the previously mentioned belt and Throw Anything can be very fun. You just throw whatever you can find (my favorite are the enemies themselves... then both take damage)
Or you could instead go Titan Mauler and throw oversized weapons combined with Vital Strike and Shot on the Run.
Lastly as Urban Barbarian you can get a boost to Dex through rage if you want a more elegantly fighting Barbarian.
Ranger, Fighter
Full Base attack and extra feats. Both can be used to push the damage. Ranger with his favored enemy bonus (and instant enemy spell) and Fighter with Weapon Specialization and his damage bonus to weapon groups.
Wizard
Not technically throwing, but Hand of the apprentice from the Universalist does let your weapon fly and hit so it kinda looks like throwing. It uses Int to attack and if you use Kirin Strike you can add Int to damage as well.
It's more of an oddity still.
SLA= spell-like ability
All sound like very interesting options there, I'll present them to my friend. Thank you for the ideas, and for explaining how they work. ^_^
Edit- Thank you for clarifying what SLA means, I just couldn't figure it out lol, though it seems obvious now. XD
Spell like ability. You get them with plenty of races that are PFS legal, although it is usually through alternate racial trait for core races. Aasimar and tieflings are some of the biggest examples though, since SLA's come standard with them.
Anyway, due to a FAQ about Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites, SLA's count as spell casting, and it is arcane if the spells are on an arcane spell caster's list. This is enough for your to take Arcane strike.
Also, I edited my post, quite a bit, adding more options. Sorry about that, didn't realize it took me 6 minutes to write that. I feel like dawnflower dervish bard (or dervish of the dawn; it went through name changes on the srd due to legal reasons) might be a very strong choice since it essentially has enough bonuses from performances to hit as hard (or harder) than any barbarian or fighter.
The edits you made make that sound straight up insane lol. They will very likely be incorporated into this character, thank you. XD
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The BELT OF MIGHTY HURLING, Greater also gives all your weapons the returning ability for free so at late games since its cost (42000GP) a bit forbidding, is a must have for your build.
Switch-Hitter is the most optimal way for you focusing on pure melee at early levels with the occasional throwing weapon attack when needed.
My suggestion for class (single class with archetype combinations)
Ranger (Infiltrator/Skirmisher)
Cons
You lose Spells and Favored terrain.
Yes ranger spells are awesome but for an infiltrator/skirmisher casting with a steady loud voice while in advance into enemy territory is like screaming "here I am come and get me".
As for favored terrain, well a good ranger can live without it.
Pros
Hunter Tricks:
Defensive Bow Stance (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a swift action. Until the start of his next turn, his ranged attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity. - This can save you a feat or two.
Deft Stand (Ex): The Ranger can spend a move action to stand up without provoking attacks of opportunity. - I hate it when I get tripped.
Hobbling Attack (Ex): The Ranger can use this trick as a free action when he hits with an attack. The target of the attack’s land speed is reduced by 1/2 for 1d4 rounds. - No Save Slow effect, Yes Please!
Adaptation (Ex):
This works with your favored enemy selection giving you special abilities or feats depending your enemy, I suggest the following:
Humanoid (giant): low-light vision, Lunge, natural armor +2, resist energy 10 (choose cold, electricity, or fire), Throw Anything.
(You will meet Giants in most campaigns and throughout most levels after 4)
or
Magical Beast: darkvision 60 ft., Great Fortitude, low-light vision, natural armor +2.
(same as above)
or
Animal: climb 15 ft., darkvision 60 ft., Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, low-light vision, natural armor (+2), swim 15 ft.
(this is not so optimal really but it will give you more movement options saving you ranks in Climb and Swim skills)
Assuming that you will make a human ranger your feat progression should go like this.
1.Power Attack, Point Blank Shot (Human)
2.Two Weapon Fighting (bonus)
3.Endurance (bonus), Deadly Aim
5.Quick Draw
6.Improved Two Weapon Fighting (bonus)
7.Rapid Shot
9.Precise Shot (unless you get it from items), (Feel free to choose)
10.Greater Two Weapon Fighting (bonus)
The Blinkback Belt might be worth considering, at least as a stopgap until you can get a +4 or +2/+2 Dex/Str belt. You can sheathe two one-handed melee weapons, or four light melee weapons, in the belt; after your throwing attack is resolved, the weapon reappears in it's belt sheath.
Since thrown weapons have a pretty short range, Far Shot and Opening Volley should be considered as well as far as Feats go; the former makes longer-ranged caber tosses less painful, while the latter from Ultimate Combat gives you +4 to-hit someone in melee if you hit them with a thrown axe the turn before.
Sliding Axe Toss from Dwarves of Golarion lets you make trip attacks with throwing axes. You might be able to sucker the GM into allowing a version of Bounding Hammer (also from DoG) that works with more than hammers, but that requires even more feats and doesn't do much for you besides looking cool.
Of all the classes, I'd have to recommend Fighter for the access to the Weapon Spec feats, full BAB, and Armor Training. The Gladiator archetype may be an interesting option if you can find a way to squeeze in the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses line of feats.
A thrower build in PF is un-workable. If you can import a ton of 3E rules and options, it's much more viable.
- Switch Far Shot to how it worked in 3E; in PF it hoses the very throwers who were the only people who took it to begin with.
- Allow 3E style ability-enhancements-in-multiple-slots-without-inflated-cost. Even better, allow Magic Item Compendium's rules that let you put the "big six" magical item effects, including stat enhancers onto another item without a 50% cost increase. Throwing needs both strength and dex, this change hurt them badly. Especially since a near-essential item, the blinkback belt, ALSO takes the same freaking slot.
- Alternatively, get the Brutal Throw feat allowed. It simply let you use str instead of dex for thrown attacks.
- Try to get the gloves of endless javelins from MIC. Gives you infinite +1 javelins (they dissolve after being thrown or dropped) for like 6000 gp. After level 6 or so, not being able to afford a ton of magical thrown weapons will be a huge hindrance.
- Try to get the gauntlets of extended range from MIC. They're only like 2000 gp and double your range with thrown weapons. This stacks with Far Shot.
- Try to get the Master Thrower prestige class allowed. One of the few throwing-specialized classes there is, in either edition. Gives a bunch of new tricks, like free tripping when you hit.
- Try to get the Bloodstorm Blade prestige class allowed. The 4th level ability is crucial if not using the gloves (above), as it allows you to full attack with the same thrown weapon, by bouncing it back to your hand (effectively, works like blinkback belt). It also lets you use a swift to treat thrown attacks as melee, using str for everything and so forth. 4 levels of the class alone actually solve most of throwing's problems.
Also helpful, though not throwing-specific is the Goggles of Foe-Finding from MIC. A couple thousand gold, lets you ignore non-total cover. Because while some archer classes get a 5-level early entry on Imp. Precise Shot...you do not.
I suppose Lemmy's suggestions, if you can swing ALL of them, are also a decent solution.
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It really can't be over-stated how much it sucks having 4 build-critical things (strength, dexterity, blinkback, and hurling) all in the same body slot, though.