I can't even imagine how they would be "debated," but whatever.
It is when someone wants to power-monger without taking drawbacks. The argument comes when Aasimar the Wizard/Oracle/Sorcerer/whatever that isn't proficient with weapon/armor it wants decides to say, "Yup, it says right here that I actually AM proficient with it! Hence enabling an Oracle to effectively have the revelation of wearing all armor for free, or the Wizard not having to spend 3 feats or take a dip in Fighter to be able to use heavy armor+Still spell.
Sometimes it is a novice who is just reading around and curious. However, I feel it is more of the rule-lawyers(we called them nazi's in my day *retrieves his cane*) who want to power-play the game by manipulating wording that was written before the newer erratas were written.
The dudes and dudettes at Paizo have but so much time to push a product out. This time constraint also means that every time there is something new that is intended to give new flavor that they cannot just re-edit every single product they have so everything is completely clear and only able to be read in one single way.
I can't even imagine how they would be "debated," but whatever.Debate ends now.
I though this was a no debating thread? Okay, since you want to continue this discussion:
How does that end the debate? That's the Race Builder from the ARG, and the intro actually says:
"A race's creature type is similar to the corresponding creature type, with a few important differences. The first difference is that each race type assumes members of the race are roughly humanoid in shape and have two arms, two legs, a torso, and a head. This is important so that a race can take advantage of all the various magic item slots available to characters and can utilize the standard weapon and armor options. The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes."
These rules, which are not core, explicitly set aside everything in the normal creature type. This is completely irrelevant to the assimar and tieflings printed in the Bestiary; it pertains only to the variants in the ARG. I'm fine with the Type being errata's, although it has not been, and I'm fine with the ARG treating it in this way. However, I don't see any evidence that contradicts what I said to be true about the core rules. If you can actually find a FAQ or errata entry that deals with this, please cite it. Otherwise, as I said, there's not anything to debate about. I stated what the rules say; they actually say that; you don't have to like it. Heck, if I had written the rules, I'd have made the proficiencies features, not traits. It's not a question of good, bad, or how to deal with it. I am just talking about what the rule actually is.
[S]ince you want to continue this discussion
Because of Balance reasons. What you are suggesting is the same as 5 free feats (armor: light, medium, heavy, shields: light, heavy, tower) for a class without said proficiency, not to mention that you would then have access to all martial weapons, which is more feats than a fighter gets in his entire career.
Regardless of type or subtype the races are built using the Race Builder, and therefore based upon that system you are only entitled to what was built into the race with the race builder.
So, it does not work because of Balance reasons. I am sorry that you have difficulty understanding that if your idea was in effect that Aasimar and Tieflings would be so incredibly better than any of the other races that there would be no reason to play them unless you were playing a full martial class.
Obvious power-grab is obvious regardless of how you attempt to veil it.
I'm not talking about balance, just what the book says. I don't really have anything else to add unless someone can furnish an actual rule that demonstrates why I am wrong.
Regardless of type or subtype the races are built using the Race Builder, and therefore based upon that system you are only entitled to what was built into the race with the race builder.
I don't even know what you are trying to say. Aasimar and tieflings predate the Race Builder by years.
Most characters cannot sneak attack in a dark alley, because dim light creates concealment.
Aasimar and tieflings predate the Race Builder by years.
Regardless of type or subtype the races are built using the Race Builder, and therefore based upon that system you are only entitled to what was built into the race with the race builder.
Incorrect: Paizo would have had to have created a race-builder by which to build the core races with. It just wasn't "clean and pretty" like the one we have.
Aasimar and Tieflings rules that contradict the rules as applied by the Race Builder version, if they are not one in the same, are no longer valid as new errata has been released to replace said content.Since Aasimar and Tieflings do not have racial hit-dice and they are specifically mentioned in the CRB we can assume they were built with the in-house race-builder, and therefore you are only entitled to what is specifically stated about them.
Aasimar Characters
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess
racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.
+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom: Aasimars are insightful,
confident, and personable.Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy
and Perception checks.Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per
day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the aasimar’s
class level).Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5,
cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.Languages: Aasimars begin play speaking Common
and Celestial. Aasimars with high Intelligence scores can
choose any of the following bonus languages: Draconic,
Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Half ling, and Sylvan.
Since Armor/Shield/Weapon proficiency are not mentioned they are not provided.
I am just going to note that I am un-persuaded. This was specified to be a non-debate thread so I am going to try to honor that request. Thank you for taking the time to try enlighten me but I assure you I am very familiar with the issue, and until the text of the Outsider type is changed, my opinion remains the same.
I think its still true that aasimars and tieflings as native outsiders are not affected by "person" spells, like enlarge person and charm person. Most players don't seem to know this in my part of the country.
My Aasimar werewolf is technically impossible for the same reason. I learned this after the fact. I am waiting until I have my hands on the Witchwolf race before I inform my DM.
The only thing that affects Aasimar and Tiefling are things that affect Outsiders or creatures, they are completely immune to anything that targets "humans".
Outsider (native)s like Aasimar and Tieflings are immune to normal channeled energy, the cleric must have the feat so it effects outsiders in order to heal these two natives.
Outsider (native)s like Aasimar and Tieflings are immune to normal channeled energy, the cleric must have the feat so it effects outsiders in order to heal these two natives.
I am unsure about that last bit. I thought energy affected natives as if they were humanoid. Can't Eidolons also be healed with positive/negative? Why else would Undead Appearance exist?
Outsider (native)s like Aasimar and Tieflings are immune to normal channeled energy, the cleric must have the feat so it effects outsiders in order to heal these two natives.
Negative on that, Houston. Every living or undead being is affected by positive and negative energy, unless specifically stated as being immune.
Feats like Alignment Channel just give you different targeting options.
[ . . . ]Every living or undead being is affected by positive and negative energy, unless specifically stated as being immune.
This is probably linked to the racial hit dice, similarly to the weapon/armor/shield proficiency, as well as linked to the fact that these people can be of any alignment, I also cannot find any traits/feats available to Aasimar/Tieflings to contradict.
Elves are immune to sleep doe O_o
EDIT: Taku Ooka Nin is immune to sleep, WTF?
Elves are immune to sleep [though.] O_o
In 3.5 elves meditate for 4 hours a day to feel refreshed--though casters still had to meditate for 8 to regain spells--but in Pathfinder elves, do, indeed have to sleep.
It is not "meditation" it is you get in your sleeping bag and go to sleep.They are immune to magical forced sleeping effect such as, I don't know, Sleep, Slumber, and so forth.
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Elves are immune to sleep [though.] O_oIn 3.5 elves meditate for 4 hours a day to feel refreshed--though casters still had to meditate for 8 to regain spells--but in Pathfinder elves, do, indeed have to sleep.
It is not "meditation" it is you get in your sleeping bag and go to sleep.They are immune to magical forced sleeping effect such as, I don't know, Sleep, Slumber, and so forth.
Actually, that "meditate" thing was Faerun.
Eberron Elves slept too.
I am just going to note that I am un-persuaded. This was specified to be a non-debate thread so I am going to try to honor that request. Thank you for taking the time to try enlighten me but I assure you I am very familiar with the issue, and until the text of the Outsider type is changed, my opinion remains the same.
You are wrong.
Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.Humans have d8 Racial Hit Dice, but they don't gain the humanoid skills automatically as class skills. Tieflings thus don't gain the outsider class skills automatically either.
We can always start a new thread on this if you are still not convinced.
Metamagic Rods and Pearls of Power funciton based on the spell slot used to cast the spell (in the case of metamagic).
Of course, this is a relatively new clarification on the rules.
So no more using a lesser rod of quicken on your maximized fireball, and then recalling it with a Pearl of Power III.
Sneak attack applies once per spell, not once per target per spell or multiple times to a single creature.
If you successfully maintain a grapple, you can choose to attempt to tie up your target without pinning them first, albeit at a –10 penalty.
You must prepare a flask of oil as a full-round action before being able to use it as a splash weapon. It then has a 50% chance of igniting.
I think a lot of the missed rules fall under vision and terrain. Some of the Sleet/ash or whatever spells reallly screw people up.
Part of the problem I think is while we have conditions explained there are no "universal spell rules". This means a given spell may reference several terrain or vision rules isn't always explicit about it, or its unclear rules outside the spell are being referenced.
I am just going to note that I am un-persuaded. This was specified to be a non-debate thread so I am going to try to honor that request. Thank you for taking the time to try enlighten me but I assure you I am very familiar with the issue, and until the text of the Outsider type is changed, my opinion remains the same.You are wrong.
Creatures with zero Hit Dice... like tieflings... NEVER gain their racial skills or weapon proficiencies. Their class skills and weapon proficiencies are ALWAYS determined by their class unless it specifically says otherwise in their specific racial traits (such as how tengus gain access to all swords). The generic creature type class skills and proficiencies with weapon and armor never apply if the creature has no racial Hit Dice.Humans have d8 Racial Hit Dice, but they don't gain the humanoid skills automatically as class skills. Tieflings thus don't gain the outsider class skills automatically either.
We can always start a new thread on this if you are still not convinced.
Feel free.
There's no need. The Race Builder shows the intent quite clearly.
Outsider (native) (3 RP)
A native outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the matter) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. When making a native outsider race, it is sometimes important to pick a single Outer Plane that race is tied to. For example, tieflings are tied to Abaddon, the Abyss, or Hell. Such ties can be important for qualifying for other racial abilities, but it's not required that a native outsider be tied to another plane. A native outsider race has the followings features.
Native outsiders have the darkvision 60 feet racial trait.
Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
That's what they get.
We also see this post marked as "No reply require". And quite frankly, if James was wrong and the post was FAQd a bunch, I can't think of any way to logically interpret "No reply require" than "He's right." The design team is well aware of the way people listen to James, and in the cases where he's been wrong, they have corrected him.
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Attempting to get the thread back on track...
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC.
Many players think this is the same things as the -4 one gets for shooting into melee. They are wrong.
-MD
30% of all magic items automatically emit light.
Weapons. Thirty percent of magic weapons shed light when held.
Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.
If one is shopping, presumably one can choose to buy either a light-shedding, or a non-light-shedding weapon. DMs will vary on whether a crafter chooses whether a magic weapon she creates sheds light, or must roll randomly.
Protection from Evil does NOT protect you from the confusion condition. Confusion is not control. However Calm Emotions will help you.
On the above mentioned casting times. If a spell has a casting time of 3 rounds, like lesser restoration, casting it from a wand or scroll still takes 3 rounds but I believe that a potion of that spell is only a standard action.
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC.
I had to look up the part where you don't get AoO against enemies with cover, but all I could find in the AoO-section of core is that you threaten any square you can make a melee attack against. I have heard of the cover rule before, though (even played with it), so if there's something I've missed, please enlighten me.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
To contribute, when making the attack in a spring attack, you can actually share the space of an ally, even if you're both medium, as long as you end your movement in a free square.
No DM who wants their players to have fun uses this rule.Oh that reminds me... a natural roll of 1 on a save versus a damaging spell can cause damage to your equipment.
From CRB:
<snip>
So, a 10d6 lightning bolt hits a caster, you roll a 1. The bolt does 35 avg damage. You roll on the table to determine what is hit. The bolt hits the caster's +6 headband of something.An item has a saving throw of 2+1/2 Caster Level. So the CL 8 headband has a +6 to make its save (or the wearer's bonus, this isn't entirely clear)... say it fails.
The headband then takes 35 damage, this is halved because it is energy damage against an object so 17. Cloth has hardness 0 and 2 hit points... the headband is destroyed.
Well, back in my 2E days, Fireballs destroyed a LOT of magic equipment. Regularly, because it was a failed save and not a crit fail that triggered destruction. Why do you think people think it got nerfed? We didn't loose up to four items, but EVERY item had to check unless it was in an extradimensional space. And that space was a magic item that needed to save as well. Fun times. :-)
/cevah
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC.I had to look up the part where you don't get AoO against enemies with cover, but all I could find in the AoO-section of core is that you threaten any square you can make a melee attack against. I have heard of the cover rule before, though (even played with it), so if there's something I've missed, please enlighten me.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.To contribute, when making the attack in a spring attack, you can actually share the space of an ally, even if you're both medium, as long as you end your movement in a free square.
You gave up too quick.
Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
/cevah
On the above mentioned casting times. If a spell has a casting time of 3 rounds, like lesser restoration, casting it from a wand or scroll still takes 3 rounds but I believe that a potion of that spell is only a standard action.
In 3.5 potions which normally took longer to cast than 1 standard action cost more. So 150gp for enlarge person.
If you deal someone nonlethal HP in excess of their total actual HP, it deals lethal HP damage.
You can nonlethal damage someone to death.
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On the above mentioned casting times. If a spell has a casting time of 3 rounds, like lesser restoration, casting it from a wand or scroll still takes 3 rounds but I believe that a potion of that spell is only a standard action.In 3.5 potions which normally took longer to cast than 1 standard action cost more. So 150gp for enlarge person.
No. In 3.5, the table entry for enlarge potion was 250gp due to a copy paste problem from 3e, in which CL5 was required to get the full benefit. Potions of lesser restoration, for example, had no greater cost despite taking a 3r casting time.
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Was using lesser rods/pearls on high level slots ever rationale?Metamagic Rods and Pearls of Power funciton based on the spell slot used to cast the spell (in the case of metamagic).
Of course, this is a relatively new clarification on the rules.
So no more using a lesser rod of quicken on your maximized fireball, and then recalling it with a Pearl of Power III.
No, but lots of people tried and argued that since "metamagic spells act in all ways like spells of their original level" was the rules as written, that it was somehow more important or better to follow the RAW then what we now know was the intended functionality.
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I just wanted to point out that RJGrady is 100% correct on the AasimarTiefling proficiency thing, and that is specifically why they made the Aasimar a Cleric rather than a Paladin when the Bestiary came out. This was very common in the 3.5 days, and is by RAW the way it works, and just because you dont like it doesnt make it less valid.
So please, if you are going to say something, double check first.
If you deal someone nonlethal HP in excess of their total actual HP, it deals lethal HP damage.
You can nonlethal damage someone to death.
Ha that looks downright evil with your avatar. :D
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I just wanted to point out that RJGrady is 100% correct on the AasimarTiefling proficiency thing, and that is specifically why they made the Aasimar a Cleric rather than a Paladin when the Bestiary came out. This was very common in the 3.5 days, and is by RAW the way it works, and just because you dont like it doesnt make it less valid.
So please, if you are going to say something, double check first.
We have. Have you?
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You can use Percetion to identify potions, Appraise to identify the properties of a magic item(without detect magic!), and Knowledge(Arcana) to identiy a spell being cast on you.
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Over a decade ago when this first came up, sure.
Aasimar are Outsiders with the native subtype.
All Outsiders get Simple & Martial weapons, and whatever type of armor and shields they are listed as wearing.
They are not Humanoids, so ths 0HD Humanoids use their Class Levels instead rules do not apply any more than Enlarge Person does.
When playing a Monster Race with Class Levels, you add in everything to thats already there, which in this case is the above proficiencies. [See Step 2 in Bestiary page 207]
RAW Aasimar start with all Simple and Martial Weapon Proficiency.
Going back to when Pathfinder first came out and the whole stink about Clerics loosing Heavy Armor, this was a big thing until Paizo made a point to make the Aasimar a Cleric, who likewise did not come with heavy armor, for this exact reason. The Aasimar free proficiency trick has been true for a very long time. I cant remember if it was true in 3.0, but it was in 3.5 and it is inPF as well, minus the armor. Tieflings as well to a lesser extent.