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Lol I just thought it was weird that this theoretical build he was asking people who take dump stats to play was based on a 5 point build and missing a few feats as well as breaking the rules of not having at least 3 combat feats by level 5 :)
I mean throw in the missing feats make them power attack, weapon focus falchion and weapon spec falchion and you've got a decent character with scary bad will save.
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Lol I just thought it was weird that this theoretical build he was asking people who take dump stats to play was based on a 5 point build and missing a few feats as well as breaking the rules of not having at least 3 combat feats by level 5 :)
I mean throw in the missing feats make them power attack, weapon focus falchion and weapon spec falchion and you've got a decent character with scary bad will save.
Agreed.
Hi five! <(^.^)7
Well , for me the fun is more on having the family , than getting stuff from it.
My reward was a bunch of NPCs i could interact with and do normal stuff with , to have this , i had to take care of them and spend my time making sure they were safe. Ofc , my GM made sure to give me opportunities to keep them that way and did not just killed them off for no reason.
Make that three. High Five all.
/cevah
Woohoo, I'm going to need more hands if this keeps up! \'(^.^)7
so true
such a scenario is a poor incentive to flesh out friends and family for a PC
characters with grand motivations and well detailed families, friends and connections, tend to have their grand motivations ignored, their connections severed, their families and friends, either slain or kidnapped by the BBEG offscreen, or simply ignoring them because they don't wish to deal with the risks.
why be involved in a guild when the guildmaster will simply boss you around and sell you out to the main villain at the first opportunity to gain something of great importance? even good aligned religious organizations that shouldn't do this, end up doing it.
I'm currently running a homebrew that (much to one player's frustration I just know it) keeps getting rescheduled due to reasons (I was going to try running it last night but was working on my grandfather's roof all day and was too tired to run when I got back in) that factors the PCs' stuff into it all over the place.
My brother is playing a Paladin and a member of the Templar Knights in my setting. When the game began he was a low ranking member and tended to get picked on by some of the higher members. He was kind of the local joke in his branch of the order as everyone kept mentioning that time. The players were slowly wondering what exactly happened in much the same way you get really curious about what the school bus incident with Farva in Super Troopers was. :P
Apparently it involved a runaway animal with a cart, some extreme property damage (including the destruction of a large statue of the patron savior of their country), and a bad guy who didn't get away. The start of the adventure was basically the Paladin getting stuck on a joke job by his superior only to complete the "job" and report back earlier than expected. When he was summoned to the chapel master's office, and he was like "oh God, what have I done now?"
So there he is sitting there in the office, and the chapel master asks him some stuff about being a templar, remarks a few things about the incident involving his great embarrassment, and even mentions the yelling that was involved after that when his Paladin was getting chewed out. The chapel master then went on to say that he had decided to give ol' Carrius the Paladin a promotion to Field Agent (the sort of Paladin who travels around and deals with issues like evil cultists, werewolves, etc). The Paladin was like "what!?".
The chapel master explained that regardless of what happened he had actually succeeded at his task and wasn't entirely to blame for all that had happened. If anything he managed to capture the criminal despite absolutely horrible luck and setbacks and then took responsibility. Turns out nearly having a giant statue fall on him and the Paladin scared the tough right out of the suspect and he confessed to everything including a few crimes they didn't even know about.
So the chapel master promoted him and then sent him and a pair of other templar members with him and the rest of the party to go investigate some things outside the country (which makes you wonder if the chapel master's motives were entirely altruistic :P).
So now Carrius is in a strange new land with him, his recently met friend Tala, and two NPCs (Klari the Templar Sorceress and Myriel the Templar Inquisitor) and their horses (each of them has a horse that's probably more powerful than each of them. :P
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Meanwhile, Tala is a mysterious individual that seems to have some personal reasons for wanting to go to the other country and help her new templar associates with breaking up some slave operations, and she seems to know a surprising amount about the country the plot is currently set in. Even more surprising was when the chapel master wished her luck in what she sought and gave his blessing on having her accompany his templar on their templar-business (which confused her a bit, but that chapel master is an odd one sometimes).
Tala contrasts Carrius quite nicely. Nobody really knows what her deal is or her motivations and she has a mean streak when the light hits her just right (one example is when she pulled a harpy's heart out of her chest with her bare hands). Besides being an aasimar, little else is really obvious about her, and she also seems to have some shapeshifting skills as she displayed in an earlier adventure where she assumed the guise of a dwarf to fool an ancient stone guardian of a dwarven vault.
While Tala is prone to wandering off, and few know much about what is going on with her, and she's so amazingly good at lying that not even a templar inquisitor can see through her lies (which is saying something because the DC to lie to an inquisitor is about DC 30), her background and people mentioned in it are integral to the story thus far, and they are reaching a point where such characters are becoming a main event.
One thing I'm psyched about is that since my schedule has been so hectic lately, my players have drastically cut down on my prep work by serving me up so many delicious hooks, NPCs, and ideas on a silver platter. :P
I also think that if a player has low stats in points buy then its by design and not just bad luck as it is when you roll.
They have chosen that for there character ( normally to raise other stats ) so should be more than will to except the disadvantage that imposes and role play accordingly and not go around say that int 7 is only a little below average it is a full 30% below average ( which in modern school terms put you well into the special needs category )
I also think that if a player has low stats in points buy then its by design and not just bad luck as it is when you roll.
They have chosen that for there character ( normally to raise other stats ) so should be more than will to except the disadvantage that imposes and role play accordingly and not go around say that int 7 is only a little below average it is a full 30% below average ( which in modern school terms put you well into the special needs category )
How do you figure that they're 30% less intelligent? Their ability score is 30% lower, but their modifier only changes the results of any intelligence based skill checks by -2 (10%).
A difference in ability score and a difference in ability are not precisely the same. For example, a character with a Strength score of 10 has a light load of 33 lbs, while a character with a 13 has a light load of 50 lbs; a roughly 50% increase, rather than a 30% increase.
Because the skill system in pathfinder is 25% talent (stat bonus) 75% skill training call it what you will
I get this split assuming that the normal max stat a character can stat with is 20 a +5 bonus to a d20 roll so 25% the rest is ranks or various other mods and as skills can be way over 20 so im assuming no other bonuses
What does that have to do with your assertion that an Int score of 7 means you're 30% less intelligent than someone with an Int score of 10?
Ok I'll put it another way on the iq scale 100 is average with the highest recorded iq being 250+ ( look it up i did ) and the max in a character can have by lvl 20 is 25 (18 stat +2 racial +5 from lvls ) which is interesting because that divides nicely at you 10 iq per stat point so someone with 7 int could have 70 iq.
Which is 30% less than 100 iq (or 10 int ) and this is why i made my earlier statement
I have had characters with ability scores far above 25 before level 20, so your base assumption is incorrect.
Also, give two characters, one with Int 7 and one with Int 10 (or even 11) a task that uses an Int-based skill, say DC15. Let's say both characters have 1 rank in the skill, and it is not a class skill, for simplicity.
The Int 7 character needs a roll of 16 to meet the DC (-2 Int +1 Skill Rank = -1)
The Int 10/11 character needs a roll of 14 to meet the DC (+0 Int +1 Skill Rank = +1)
On a d20 roll, the Int 10/11 character will succeed on the roll 10% more often than the Int 7 character (16-14=2...2x5% = 10%) which means that the Int 7 character is 10% less able than an Int 10/11 character when it comes to Intelligence. Welcome to the limits of Whose d20 system is it anyway? where almost everything is made up using a scale of 5% increments and the points that you put into ability scores don't matter.
At least not nearly as much as people believe they do.
This flaw in the system is a major part of why Challenge Ratings and level-appropriate encounters have become so central. The entire foundation of character creation - ability scores and the bonuseseses (boni can DIAF) or penalties a character receives from them, effectively only have a range that is about 7 numbers wide (with today's most widely-accepted character creation methods.)
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Ok I'll put it another way on the iq scale 100 is average with the highest recorded iq being 250+ ( look it up i did ) and the max in a character can have by lvl 20 is 25 (18 stat +2 racial +5 from lvls ) which is interesting because that divides nicely at you 10 iq per stat point so someone with 7 int could have 70 iq.
Which is 30% less than 100 iq (or 10 int ) and this is why i made my earlier statement
Someone with a 20 Intelligence has a +5 to every craft skill ever. All of them. You are the equivalent of a trained smith, jewelrycutter, painter, cobbler, tailor, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. You speak 6-7 languages just because you picked them up casually, no special learning (IE - skill ranks) involved.
The actual human limit in Intelligence at 20th level is 28 (20 base, +5 from levels, +3 from age). However, this is something of a joke because there has never in the history of the world existed a human that was anywhere even in the stadium seating of the ballpark that is 20th level.
Most legendary heroes are only around 5th level in terms of what they actually do. The greatest examples of humanity that we actually have on record would be doing really, really well to break 3rd level.
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The actual human limit in Intelligence at 20th level is 28 (20 base, +5 from levels, +3 from age). However, this is something of a joke because there has never in the history of the world existed a human that was anywhere even in the stadium seating of the ballpark that is 20th level.
Now this is only my opinion.......
But I dont think I'm any smarter now then at 50 then I was at 20. I hope I'm a lot wiser know then I was.
I have had characters with ability scores far above 25 before level 20, so your base assumption is incorrect.The numbers tony gent was using were non-magic enhanced, if you got above a 25 before 20th without magic I'd like to know so I could do the same thing.
20 base
2 8th level
3 age
25 at 8th level if you don't mind -6 to all 3 physical stats
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Forrest Gump had, arguably, an Int of around 6 or so, but he also had Skill Focus (Knowledge(Math)) and kept math maxed every level and maybe even had a trait giving a bonus on Knowledge(Math) and making it a class skill. So even at lvl 3, he has -2 (Int) +3 (class skill) + 3 (skill focus) + 3 (skill ranks) +1 (trait) = +8 on Knowledge(math) checks. Meanwhile, Lt. Dan probably has an Int around 10-12. He's no dummy, but he hasn't got a head for math, either. So his check on Knowledge (Math) is +0, +2 at best if he has 12 Int and put a skill point into it so he could make checks above DC 10. Dan has higher Int than Gump, but Gump has a 95% chance to make a successful check for a DC 10 Math check while Dan only has a 65% chance to make the same check. The Intelligence score represents your aptitude for intellectual pursuits, not your achievements. Therefore, it is the most shallow superficial of practices to look at the Intelligence score alone and try to derive conclusions about how smart a person is from it. You can determine their aptitude, but not their achievement. A character with 7 Int has low aptitude but may compensate with high aptitude. Fiction is chocked full of examples of underdog characters with low aptitude matched against a prodigy and the underdog succeeds because his hard work made up the difference and then some while the prodigy tried to slide on his natural talent.
I dont remember Forrest being a math savant in the movie, his life was more right place right time success.
The actual human limit in Intelligence at 20th level is 28 (20 base, +5 from levels, +3 from age). However, this is something of a joke because there has never in the history of the world existed a human that was anywhere even in the stadium seating of the ballpark that is 20th level.
Now this is only my opinion.......
But I dont think I'm any smarter now then at 50 then I was at 20. I hope I'm a lot wiser know then I was.
That's just the thing. You might not be. There's only a +1, +2, or +3 to the SCORE from aging. So you could easily have increased slightly in Intelligence without even noticing any real difference. If you're middle age then you got a +1 to your Int. Unless it got you to the next tier in modifiers, you wouldn't notice it at all.
For example, 12 Int -> 13 Int is no change in ability.
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He's Gump, he's Gump, He's gump, nothin in his head
He's Gump, he's Gump, He's gump, He slays undead...