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I've just joined a newly formed playing group, made up mostly of people just getting back into RPGs after a while, and a couple of total tabletop RPG newbies. The experienced players mostly have 3.0/3.5 experience, but I'm the only one who has played Pathfinder. I figured an adventure path would be a good way to come up with adventures to play quickly and easily, so I volunteered to GM the group through one as our first campaign, and we agreed to use Pathfinder rules.
We had a discussion of what type of game people want, and "story driven" was the phrase that kept coming up. So I know these guys don't want a dungeon crawl, or anything that's focused mostly on combat. Some combat is obviously ok, even necessary, or there's no point playing this type of game, but I'm thinking lots of interaction with NPCs and story plot outside of just combat would appeal to this group.
Personally, I've played a lot of Pathfinder Society, but never played or GMed an AP. So I'm trying to guess which would be good for this group based on what I've heard or read online.
Rise of the Runelords is obviously the best known, so personally, I'm curious to check it out, but I don't actually know that much about it. From what I've seen, it does focus on some of the classic genre monsters (goblins, giants), and seems like it should provide a good introduction to both the game and the world of Golarion, especially for the total newbies. But is there a lot of plot stuff that ties the different parts together? A lot of NPC interaction? Or are you mostly just moving from one combat driven adventure to the next?
Also, I've heard that RotR has a reputation for being deadly, and I don't want to scare the newbies away. But we're also playing with 6 players, and I've heard these things are designed for 4, so I may just let them steamroll some of the combats and only adjust the difficulty up if it definitely seems too easy, regardless of which AP we're playing. Given the lack of player skill I'm expecting from these guys, I'm thinking too easy is better than too hard.
From the published description by Paizo, Council of Thieves seems like it would be a good choice for this group, except that I don't know if they want to do something that urban focused. One of the players was talking about maybe playing a druid, and I think that they're expecting at least some wilderness exploration, just because it's a classic part of the genre.
Jade Regent seems like it might be good, but I've seen it described as something of a sequel to Runelords. Would it be best to do RotR first?
Skull and Shackles has me curious, because pirates. What else is there to say? But I'm worried about people with lawful and/or good characters having a problem in that one. It seems better suited for a neutral group, and some of these guys have indicated that they're mostly interested in playing good, heroic type characters.
I've ruled out Kingmaker, even though it might be a good fit for this group, because I've heard that it requires more work to customize than any of the others. Since this is my first time GMing a campaign in over 20 years (as opposed to the single session adventures of Pathfinder Society, which I GM all the time), I'd rather ease into it with something easier.
Carrion Crown sounds interesting, but I'm just not sure if I'm a good enough GM to do the horror theme justice. I'm also not sure if the group would be interested in something so horror focused - I'd have to ask them.
What do the rest of you think?
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Curse of the Crimson Throne was a good 1st adventure path experience for me and my players - starts out urban, but then moves into the larger world. Pretty good story as well, with regicide, forgotten castles, barbarians, etc.
Jade Regent is not really a sequel to anything, it just uses a starting point and some characters that were seen before in Rise of the Runelords.
I wasn't a big fan of Skull and Shackles...we finished it, but by the end I was like, "Yay, another shipboard combat. How unexpected." Plus my players grew to hate underwater combat, and that happens a lot. So I would say, "The trail leads underwater." Response: "Meh, lets go do something else."
Right now I am running Runelords. It is the first Pathifnder thing I have DMed,I had DMed and played 3.5 a fair amount, and played in part of a Kingmaker campaign. I have however read a lot about most of the APs when I was deciding which one to do, and what one to do next. I landed on runelords, and the next one I run will be skulls and shackles.
I like runelords because it is story driven, but not a complete railroad. There is a nice mix of story, but also a good amount of combat and some dungeons.
To answer your questions. In the beginning, it looks like a lot of it isn't tied together, but as you go through the AP, things from the beginning start to connect and make sense. The NPC interaction is up to you and your players. Sandpoint, the major location for the AP, has something like 50 named NPCs that you as the DM get info on, so if your players are up for it, that are lots of people to meet.
About being deadly, We are part of the way through book 2, and I have killed 4 player characters. That being said, our group plays Pathfinder like George R. R. Martian writes books. People die a lot, because we make it challenging and we like that.
Another bonus for runelords, because so many people play it, there is a lot of community stuff out for it. Maps you can print, character expansion ideas, extra quests to add in. Also because of the anniversary edition being just 1 book, it is the cheapest to run.
There is my thoughts. I might also look at Reign of Winter, I really want to run that one, but my players really want to be pirates, hence why my next AP is Skulls & Shackles.
everytime I see this thread
I say the same thing
do not start with an AP
Do a few scenarios or a module to get a feel for your group and how they mesh with you as a GM
Allow the new players to play while also not tying them in to a long-standing campaign at first, they're bound to learn and want to try new things
My group is playing Jade Regent right now and it's a blast, highly recommended. Simple, direct, and it has the classic Lord Of The Rings-ian long, epic overland journey schick going for it.
Pro tip: ignore the caravan rules. They have a sub optimal math-to-fun ratio.
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everytime I see this thread
I say the same thing
do not start with an AP
Do a few scenarios or a module to get a feel for your group and how they mesh with you as a GM
Allow the new players to play while also not tying them in to a long-standing campaign at first, they're bound to learn and want to try new things
I was actually thinking of running them through We Be Goblins first, just for kicks, and to give the newbies a chance to learn the rules of the game.
A great idea, Fromper, but my only concern with that is that it uses pregens
New players need to make characters in order to help them learn, as well as to make those first few 'why the heck did I choose this' mistakes that are kinda necessary for getting better as a player
Often after a session or two a new player will quickly realize that they either have a better idea for a new character, made a ton of mistakes/judgement-call errors on their first one, or just flat-out didn't understand what they initially built and want a 'do-over'
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Rise of the Runelords is obviously the best known, so personally, I'm curious to check it out, but I don't actually know that much about it. From what I've seen, it does focus on some of the classic genre monsters (goblins, giants), and seems like it should provide a good introduction to both the game and the world of Golarion, especially for the total newbies. But is there a lot of plot stuff that ties the different parts together? A lot of NPC interaction? Or are you mostly just moving from one combat driven adventure to the next?
Runelords can be any of those things. If your party will actually talk to monsters and gain intelligence instead of killing things first, the "dungeons" of runelords will come alive with the right GM. There are many encounter sites in the AP where the writers give you a ton of backstory to work with. Players interested in learning about the enemy will be richly rewarded. Or you can kick all their faces in.
Also, I've heard that RotR has a reputation for being deadly, and I don't want to scare the newbies away. But we're also playing with 6 players, and I've heard these things are designed for 4, so I may just let them steamroll some of the combats and only adjust the difficulty up if it definitely seems too easy, regardless of which AP we're playing. Given the lack of player skill I'm expecting from these guys, I'm thinking too easy is better than too hard.
The original was deadly. The anniversary edition is right on target. It's hard enough that you can't make bad or mediocre characters. Your fighter should have a big strength and be able to fight. Your wizard should not overspecialize in blasting spells (or if they do, do it right). Etc. Etc.
You can always adjust the challenge, though. My favorite trick is to plan a few "bad" actions for the bosses... stuff like gloating or toying with their kill. Enough wasted actions to enhance the flavor and give the players time to get their act together.
Still, someone might die on occasion. It's worth reviewing that beforehand. You could drop a mythic tier on them early on, or use hero points, or any one of the many tricks available to lessen the challenge. But honestly, one or two PC deaths over the course of 16-17 levels can be a good thing, if the players are in the right headspace. The tragic deaths of my 3 dead PCs from runelords are still fondly remembered by all involved. That makes for a good story, not a meatgrinder.
From the published description by Paizo, Council of Thieves seems like it would be a good choice for this group, except that I don't know if they want to do something that urban focused. One of the players was talking about maybe playing a druid, and I think that they're expecting at least some wilderness exploration, just because it's a classic part of the genre.
I was going to suggest CoT as #2. There are urban druid archetypes. Another good option is Kingmaker — although it seems like your party might blanch at the whole random encounter thing, if you sell it as a roleplaying feature (which is how I use it) it could be a great AP. Not especially challenging, wilderness exploration, a ton of NPC interaction with running the kingdom. A great AP.
Jade Regent seems like it might be good, but I've seen it described as something of a sequel to Runelords. Would it be best to do RotR first?
Nope, other than starting in the same town, the two APs are completely separate. You might be thinking of Shattered Star, which is a spiritual sequel to Runelords. Even then, you don't need to have played Runelords to enjoy S*, but you'll get more out of it if you did.
Skull and Shackles has me curious, because pirates. What else is there to say? But I'm worried about people with lawful and/or good characters having a problem in that one. It seems better suited for a neutral group, and some of these guys have indicated that they're mostly interested in playing good, heroic type characters.
I know very little about this one.
I've ruled out Kingmaker, even though it might be a good fit for this group, because I've heard that it requires more work to customize than any of the others. Since this is my first time GMing a campaign in over 20 years (as opposed to the single session adventures of Pathfinder Society, which I GM all the time), I'd rather ease into it with something easier.
More work to customize? I wouldn't say so.
Kingmaker is a great campaign for GMs who think on their feet. If you're okay going into the session with no real plan, then taking your cues from what the players choose to do, then Kingmaker is a great AP. If you're a script-dependent GM, Kingmaker will break you, or you will break it.
It comes to this: if your party wants to hold the reins and decide what they want to work on for every session, Kingmaker really does sound right for you. If you'd prefer more of a customizable railroad adventure, where the plot hooks are fixed but you can deviate as needed, then Runelords might be best. Council of Thieves sounds good, but I don't know too much about it.
I'll take a contrarian view and say throw the PCs right into an AP, particularly if they dig a good story. I'm currently running both Jade Regent and RotR (different groups, one face-to-face, one online with MapTools) and though they are related, Jade Regent isn't really a sequel.
Look, these APs provide that wonderful shared experience that the G series did and Keep on the Borderlands. They're fantastic stories and really have something there for everyone. I think any group would enjoy either one of these as both have really fun stories and begin in a richly developed small town setting that is very easy to bring to life. Pick the one that you think they will most enjoy and let her rip. Make sure you have a copy of their PCs character sheets if possible, or at least the important bits, and simply jump right in.
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I would recommend Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, great for getting new players in and old players into the fold.
Jade Regent is also fantastic for new groups, especially if you use We Be Goblins as a prequel. Wonderful flavour and cool encounters/NPC interactions.
If Kingmaker interests you then check my profile for my Kingmaker Expansion packs.
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So after a little (but not enough) feedback from my group, I'm leaning towards Rise of the Runelords or Jade Regent.
One guy wants to focus on mounted combat, so I'm wondering how that will play out in these adventures. It sounds like the long, overland trek of JR will work well with a mount. What about Runelords? Are there enough outdoor combats for him to be able to ride into battle a decent amount of the time?
Maybe I'll just suggest to him that he go with a small race and ride a dog into battle, so he can easily bring it inside buildings and dungeons.
either one is good for mounted combat, jade regent might be a little better but not by enough to pick it over runelords
So after a little (but not enough) feedback from my group, I'm leaning towards Rise of the Runelords or Jade Regent.
One guy wants to focus on mounted combat, so I'm wondering how that will play out in these adventures. It sounds like the long, overland trek of JR will work well with a mount. What about Runelords? Are there enough outdoor combats for him to be able to ride into battle a decent amount of the time?
Maybe I'll just suggest to him that he go with a small race and ride a dog into battle, so he can easily bring it inside buildings and dungeons.
I've run RotRL a number of times now and it has a huge amount of immersion. The first book sets the stage for a grand adventure and is full of colorful and memorable npcs. As a huge bonus there is a massive amount of Community Created Content in the threads below. Runelords is a long adventure, but as long as you read 5 or ten pages ahead every game you should do fantastic. Make sure you read up on the town though, at least breeze through all the npcs.
Mounted combat can work, BUT this isn't Kingmaker alot of it happens indoors and in small tunnels. If he wants to be mounted tell him to take a ridding dog and go small size, it can work.
As far as the challenge? As is the adventure has some tough spots, but they are mostly later on, book 3 on. The only thing the ap lacks is tons of skill challenges (climb, knowledges, acrobatics), but you can add those in along the way if you like.
Anyways, RotRL will always be my favorite AP and I've read most of them. Wayfinder 7 the free supplement has alot of great extra content. The Community can answer any questions and help you prep for games. Good luck!
Jade Regent has about 2 locations in it (one of which is pretty huge) where a mount would have generally have to wait outside, but otherwise generally sticks to outdoor locations or places with very wide halls. Rise of the Runelords is Significantly Less Friendly on that front, with the first third of the AP generally set in cramped narrow spaces with lots of winding rickety stairs. Kingmaker is about as mount-friendly as they come.
And, as far as general plot/combat/dungeon crawling ratios go, it's worth noting that every AP, as a rule, tends to have a lot of combat involved, and any given chapter of a given AP is going to have somewhere between one and three big ol' dungeons/strongholds to slog through.
That said though, none of them just go, "the mayor is worried about a local tribe of goblins/orcs/trolls/whatnot planning to raid the town. Go kill them all and you'll each be rewarded with a large sack of gold."* There's typically a lot of real build-up, several NPCs to play off, maybe an initial investigation angle... and when you do have a big ol' set piece dungeon crawl show up, you tend to have a unique structure with an interesting sense of history, multiple factions inside which are often actively fighting, and some NPCs who can be won-over or turned against each other. So as long as you make sure your players realize that they aren't necessarily being forced into a big ol' combat slog, and that they'll still get experience for non-violent resolution, the big dungeon crawls actually present great roleplaying opportunities more often than not.
* Actually Jade Regent DOES start out with "you're all in a bar, someone posts a notice on a board asking for volunteers to go clear out a village full of goblins," but that's something of a tongue-in-cheek lead-in to the PCs discovering something that kicks off a much much stronger plot hook.
Also worth noting, if it's something you're looking for- There's a lot of variation between how strongly the chapters in a given AP tie into each other. Looking specifically at the ones people have mentioned...
Rise of the Runelords has surprisingly little overarching plot the players are likely to pick up on. For about the first two thirds, and even the events within a single chapter can feel like a bunch of isolated incidents, but it does a fantastic job of establishing the mood for each scene and making the town things start off in feel like a real place with a population of colorful characters.
Jade Regent has a real strong overarching plot and a few NPCs it uses experimental mechanics to try and really flesh out, but being structured as a huge road trip, most chapters are very self-contained, "here's the big threat to be dealt with in THIS country" affairs which aren't going to really have lasting consequences because the PCs aren't coming back.
Kingmaker's central gimmick (essentially playing Civilization) generally promotes enough serious investment in the local cities that clearing out potential threats anywhere in the region is enough to make everything feel connected.
Overall though, I'd say the AP with the single strongest overarching plot is probably Legacy of Fire. I wouldn't really recommend it as an introduction to Pathfinder, since it was the last AP written for 3.5's rules and converting can be a pain, but there's a very definite sense of flow from chapter to chapter, and the party's ultimate objective is established pretty early on.
You're going to have the same problems with mounted combat in just about every AP, perhaps excepting Kingmaker (depending on your use of random encounters).
They're pretty well documented issues, mainly the silliness of riding a mount indoors. Many people get around this by having a small sized PC.
Make no mistake, Runelords has dungeons in it. They're just adventure sites with a lot of background and very-fleshed-out NPCs residing in them, but they are still dungeons. That gets to be kind of a bummer for mounted characters — but you play a mounted character so that you can excel at certain types of encounters and hang back the rest of the time.
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Just FYI, we decided to go with Runelords. Being a single hardback book, it's the cheapest for me to buy, and I was more curious about that one than any of the others. Thanks for all the responses, everyone!
And Lamontius, I'm not too worried that the players will want to change up their characters after a couple of sessions. It'll probably happen, especially since we're dealing with newbies, but I'll be flexible in letting them just change some of their choices after they see how the PC plays. Even if they want to make a whole new character, I may conspire with the player (without the others knowing) to have their character get killed in a big heroic sacrifice, leading to them bringing in a new character at the same level immediately afterward. That sort of thing can be fun from a story perspective.
Cool.
As a further note, my wife plays a halfling cavalier in our RotRL game and has had virtually no trouble with it. (Our characters are currently almost level 8 and are a fair bit into Ch. 3)
Also, for medium-sized characters with mounts, Animal Archive and a few other releases have introduced gear, spells, animal tricks and feats that make a lot of the old "it's too hard to be a cavalier in a dungeon or in social settings" a thing of the past, for the most part.
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Cool! Good choice. Remember to hit up the Runelords subforum on this site.
Welcome to one of the most helpful networks of co-GMs in all of RPGdom. I haven't been in there much since the end of my run on Runelords, but it is definitely the people on this forum who helped me reach the finish.
High quality fan-made maps, detailed NPC writeups, and tons of people who will actually sit and listen to you about your PCs and your situation, then help you out with in-depth suggestions. It's bloody brilliant.