Sub-Zero revisited


Advice


So rather then reviving this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o1on?SubZero-monkninja-build-advice) that I made a year ago, I figured I start fresh.

So, where I'm at is trying to make MOMS work even with the loss of Flurry, and still be able to kick-ass with a Sub-Zero monk

Currently my build out to lvl 11 looks like:

20 point buy:
Str 17 (19 after bonus)
Dex 15
con 11
Wis 14
Int 8
Chr 7

Lvl 4 goes into strength, level 8 into con

Human Monk10/ Fighter1
Feats:
1. TWF
H(1). Power attack
F(1). Dragon Style
M(2). Dragon Ferocity
3. Elemental Fists
M(3). Marid Style
5. Double Slice
M(7). Marid Spirit
7. Weapon Focus
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11. Tiger Style
M. Tiger Pounce

My attacks will not hit as often as a flurry of blows, but they should connect for a ton of solid cold damage. Unlike some builds that I've thought of using, this one seems usable out the gate.

Lvl 1: TWF, Power attack, and Dragon style will have me hitting for 1d6+8 (4 base + 2 Dragon style + 2 Power attack)with my main hand, and 1d6+ 3 with my offhand

Not terrible for 1st level

Lvl 3:
By level 3 the build starts to come together:

My first strike will do: 1d6 + 12 (PA, DS, DF, Wisdom (marid style))+ 1d6 (elemental fist) and the offhand will do 1d6+ 5(PA, DF)

If both connect average damage would be= 24

On top of that I'll have a 10 foot reach whenever I'm using elemental fist.

Lvl 6:(assuming no power-ups from gear or party)
- My first strike will do: 1d8 + 15 + 2d6, and the offhand 1d8 + 6

average damage if both connect= 37

Finally Lvl 11

- My first strike will do 1d10 + 17 + 3d6 (and have a chance of entangling the opponent) and the offhand will do 1d10 + 10, followed by 2 more strikes dealing 1d10 + 13 and 1d10 + 10 respectively.

so if all 4 attacks hit the average damage output would look like: 82.5 (not that great, but again that's with no power-ups used at all)

However, this build really benefits from stat increase items (belt of giant strength), haste, and (adding an extra strike from Ki. I leave this in paranthesis since it's not allowed by RAW, but me and my GM agree that it seems unfair to deny that Ki ability).

I'll probably take the Quinggon monk and pick up dragons breath (to act as a cold damage of course :)

In further levels I'll pick up Boar style to add 2d6 bleed damage

Anyways, thoughts, comments, questions welcome.

Edit: point buy changed to reflect improved dex for twf


Sub_Zero wrote:


Feats:
1. TWF
H(1). Power attack
F(1). Dragon Style
M(2). Dragon Ferocity
3. Elemental Fists
M(3). Marid Style
5. Double Slice
M(7). Marid Spirit
7. Weapon Focus
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
11. Tiger Style
M. Tiger Pounce

How are you qualifying for TWF, ITWF, and Elemental fists?


Elemental fists is through Dragon Ferocity, the others... well that changes things. I'll change the point buy to reflect that. (and I'll pick up a belt that gives +2 dex for the ITWF).


shameless bump.

Sczarni

That's a really cool build!(no pun intended)

You can most definitely flavor that how you want and truly being out the Sub-Zero!! Your damage is going to suck in the longrun no matter what you do, so don't let it eat away at you. If there is a Druid in your group however, make sure to get Strong Jaw casted on you(x2 damage die increase on IUS), and at some point you should pick up Pauldrons of the Juggernaught and/or have someone throw Enlargement on you. That'll REALLY help with your IUS damage a great amount. It wouldn't hurt to get a Monk's Robe either.

All in all I think you really hit it on point. You should make him Qinggong too, but I'm not sure if you can swap out any powers.


I am actually confused by several things in your build.

You seem to be taking your first level as Fighter looking at your feat progression (shows F1 at first level), but then your feats and pre-reqs don't seem to line up.

How are you qualifying for Dragon Style as a Fighter 1? It has a pre-req of Acrobatics 3.

Basically, this causes a lot of problems with feat progression.

Moving the Fighter level (and Power Attack bonus feat) to 3rd character level should fix everything.

Sovereign Court

Samasboy1 wrote:

I am actually confused by several things in your build.

You seem to be taking your first level as Fighter looking at your feat progression (shows F1 at first level), but then your feats and pre-reqs don't seem to line up.

How are you qualifying for Dragon Style as a Fighter 1? It has a pre-req of Acrobatics 3.

Basically, this causes a lot of problems with feat progression.

Moving the Fighter level (and Power Attack bonus feat) to 3rd character level should fix everything.

He might have taken the Unarmed Fighter archetype, but didn't note it in the build. I think that'd solve that issue, though I'm pretty sleepy/wrong today a lot, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was another logic failure on today's pile.


Hey good call!

So Unarmed Fighter 1/MoMS Monk 11, the feat progression should work out.

For stats maybe go

Str 18 (16+2)
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7

?


Thanks El Baron de los Banditos, I did in fact mean unarmed fighter 1. Basically this build is very style heavy, which means that I need to pick as many as styles as quick as I can.

I know that it won't be competing with pure dps builds, but I am hoping that it will put out some decent damage, especially once I have gear appropriate items.

For equipment, I'm thinking must haves are:
- Monks robe
- belt of giant strength (+4)
- headband of wisdom (+2)
- cloak of resistance (+3)
- ring of protection
- Amulet of mighty fists +1 frost (frost damage of course)
- boots of speed (only if no mage to help out)
- wand of mage armor (giving it to the caster to use on me)
- wand of great magic

For stats I think I should switch it to:

Str 24 (16 base +2 (racial) and lvl 4/8 + belt)
Dex 14
con 13 (will raise to 14 at level 12)
int 7
wis 16 (this above dex to help with stunning fist, and marid style damage)
cha 7

So with the current build I'm looking at 4 attacks. The first attack should land for decent damage and 2 good debuffs (freezing them in ice + stunning fist)

I think (if I've done the math right) my first hit would be

2d6 (monk robe) + 7 + 3 (dragon style) + 3 (dragon ferocity) + 2d6 cold (elemental fist) + 1d6 cold (aomf) + 3 (marid style)+1 (aomf) + 6 (power attack) = 40.5 (not bad for a single hit

the 2nd strike would be the same minus dragon style, elemental fist, marid style meaning it would = 27.5

the 2 offhand strikes would also be the same -3 for power attack= 24.5

So in theory at level 11 if all attacks hit/ and I was hasted damage should look like

1st strike- 40.5
2nd (main hand)- 27.5
2nd (main hand+haste)- 27.5
3rd (off hand) - 24.5
4th (off hand) - 24.5

Total if all hit= 144.5

Additionally, if I was able to add ki for the extra stike that would bring it to a very decent damage range (not raw, but i think my gm would let me do so to add extra monk damage goodness)

Any additions of things I could do to help this out further would be appreciated :)

Shadow Lodge

i would go 8 monk 4 magus and focus on unarmed strikes. but thats just me, elemental fist a very limited use so you wont be using it as often as you would like. magus can really do well using the first level cold touch spell, then add in the meta magic feat for changing energy types for spell and you're looking at a really good build for teeth kickin in.


Sub_Zero wrote:


Str 24 (16 base +2 (racial) and lvl 4/8 + belt)
Dex 14
con 13 (will raise to 14 at level 12)
int 7
wis 16 (this above dex to help with stunning fist, and marid style damage)
cha 7

Dex is too low for TWF. My stat distribution suggestion lets you take TWF (and use a Dex booster for ITWF), at the cost of Stunning Fist DC and Marid Style damage.

I prefer that since you can still TWF even if you lose the stat booster or it gets suppressed.


Samasboy1 wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:


Str 24 (16 base +2 (racial) and lvl 4/8 + belt)
Dex 14
con 13 (will raise to 14 at level 12)
int 7
wis 16 (this above dex to help with stunning fist, and marid style damage)
cha 7

Dex is too low for TWF. My stat distribution suggestion lets you take TWF (and use a Dex booster for ITWF), at the cost of Stunning Fist DC and Marid Style damage.

I prefer that since you can still TWF even if you lose the stat booster or it gets suppressed.

good point! I keep forgetting about the high dex requirement for twf...

This is so frustrating. I feel like I'm so close to having a decent build that is viable, but the damage is just a little below par.


Sub_Zero,
I hate to add onto your build woes (because I like this build ALOT), BUT unless I am wrong which I could be. You cannot use normal feats to gain styles that you wouldn't gain access to normally. The bonus MOMS feats yes, normal ones I don't believe so.

Also gaining the improved unarmed strike at level 1 does not make the damage D6, monk does that so it remains a D3 for the fighter level

01 (F1) Dragon Style, Power Attack, Two-weapon fighting
02 (M1) Dragon Ferocity
03 (M2) Elemental Fist, Weapon focus
04 (M3) Stat Boost
05 (M4) Double Slice
06 (M5) No Feats
07 (M6) Marid Style, Tiger Style
08 (M7) Stat Boost
09 (M8) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 (M9) No Feats
11 (M10) Marid Sprit, Dragon Roar

Tiger Claws and Pounce don't seem worth it. The first one you get less attacks (IF you hit) and the second you dump your AC (the swift action seems nice) and you need tiger claws first


Which feat (style feat taken with normal feat) are you referring to?

Dragon Style is Unarmed Fighter bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Dragon Ferocity is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Elemental Fists is the normal lvl 3 feat (Dragon Ferocity allows ignoring pre-reqs)
Marid Style is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Marid Spirit is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Tiger Style is the normal lvl 11 feat and you meet all pre-reqs
Tiger Pounce is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)


Samasboy1 wrote:

Which feat (style feat taken with normal feat) are you referring to?

Dragon Style is Unarmed Fighter bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Dragon Ferocity is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Elemental Fists is the normal lvl 3 feat (Dragon Ferocity allows ignoring pre-reqs)
Marid Style is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Marid Spirit is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)
Tiger Style is the normal lvl 11 feat and you meet all pre-reqs
Tiger Pounce is MoMS Monk bonus feat (ignores pre-reqs)

Yeah, it's most likely Hero Lab puking on me...


I am torn between tiger style and boar style. 2d6 bleed damage is nice but I do really need to make sure I get to full attack as often as possible (hence tiger style/tiger pounce).

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