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Magic.
Oh yeah, it grants mythic levels...
20 mythic levels to be precise...
It has been a point of speculation as the entry doesn't say anything about becoming a god. What has been more or less confirmed is that in order to become a god, a character must take the test already being mythic. If you try the test and aren't mythic already, success allows you to connect with an already existing god and become something akin to a demigod. But you don't ascend. That this has never happened in that manner is testament to the idea that a non-mythic character cannot survive the test. I think the stats given apply to someone who goes to the Starstone without submitting to the test. There are bridges into the Cathedral after all. Someone has to use them.
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Personally, the way the Starstone was 'revealed' in Mythic Realms reduced much of its intrigue and outright power in my eyes. Yeah, its still a radioactive space rock mutating folks, but now it only mutates them into folks who get an extra standard action per round and some nice tricks, not into gods who've been there in ages past.
The whole 'attract the attention of a deity' shenanigans just doesn't feel like it fits with at least 1/2 (probably 3/4, but Norgy's not telling) of the ascended gods. Aroden made an island for the space rock, flew into the sky, and became a god. Cayden wandered in drunk and was a full on god 3 days later. Only Iomedae was promoted to Divine Underling (TM) after passing the test.
And therein lies my beef with 'Realms version of the Starstone. Unless it is a diminishing returns sort of divine battery, and every time someone ascends it drops the juju left by a marked amount, Aroden spent a grand total of 1 minute as a 10-tier para-god, and Cayden spent less than 3 days as the same. Iomedae, however, had to endure 774 years as Aroden's war hound, not to mention being harassed by folks who could cast Greater Planar Ally/Binding.
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Personally, the way the Starstone was 'revealed' in Mythic Realms reduced much of its intrigue and outright power in my eyes. Yeah, its still a radioactive space rock mutating folks, but now it only mutates them into folks who get an extra standard action per round and some nice tricks, not into gods who've been there in ages past.
The whole 'attract the attention of a deity' shenanigans just doesn't feel like it fits with at least 1/2 (probably 3/4, but Norgy's not telling) of the ascended gods. Aroden made an island for the space rock, flew into the sky, and became a god. Cayden wandered in drunk and was a full on god 3 days later. Only Iomedae was promoted to Divine Underling (TM) after passing the test.
And therein lies my beef with 'Realms version of the Starstone. Unless it is a diminishing returns sort of divine battery, and every time someone ascends it drops the juju left by a marked amount, Aroden spent a grand total of 1 minute as a 10-tier para-god, and Cayden spent less than 3 days as the same. Iomedae, however, had to endure 774 years as Aroden's war hound, not to mention being harassed by folks who could cast Greater Planar Ally/Binding.
Thing is, we don't know what state any of the above were in when they took the test. Aroden and Cayden could already have been Mythic. We also don't know anything about the test itself, it may not be a binary result - it could rewards people for doing better than others. Perhaps the very act of desiring ascension is what prevents it happening - Aroden had no prior reference to tell him what passing the test would do, Cayden probably didn't even realize he was in a test :) There's just too many variables involved to assume that the default result has changed from the data we have so far. We don't even know how much of the truth we've heard so far - "Aroden went in and came out a god" doesn't mean he didn't also have to do other things that have simply been forgotten about over time. He may well have gone in, passed his test, and while he was in there also performed other actions for a year or two in a time-stopped pocket dimension to complete his divine ascension.
We just don't know enough to assume it's doing anything differently now than it always has.We were told: "People have gone to the Starstone, passed their test, and emerged as gods."
We just assumed it meant "The Starstone turns anyone and everyone who passes their test directly into a god."
We also assumed what we were hearing was the truth according to the Paizo God-Authors, when we may have been hearing the truth according to legend.
We've now been told "The Starstone can grant Mythic levels to people that pass their test." We were not told that is the only thing it can do, only the thing that we're most likely going to want to use it for in an ongoing Mythic campaign.
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Thing is, we don't know what state any of the above were in when they took the test. Aroden and Cayden could already have been Mythic. We also don't know anything about the test itself, it may not be a binary result - it could rewards people for doing better than others. Perhaps the very act of desiring ascension is what prevents it happening - Aroden had no prior reference to tell him what passing the test would do, Cayden probably didn't even realize he was in a test :) There's just too many variables involved to assume that the default result has changed from the data we have so far. We don't even know how much of the truth we've heard so far - "Aroden went in and came out a god" doesn't mean he didn't also have to do other things that have simply been forgotten about over time. He may well have gone in, passed his...
1. I believe Aroden was already a god when he first encountered the Starstone, wasn't he? He was, at the very least, already immortal...he was already the Last Azlanti by SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS. At any rate, he didn't have to take the Test of the Starstone...he's the one who first set that up. He just had to dig it out of the bottom of the ocean.
2. The very fact that Cayden survived the Test of the Starstone while blackout drunk, to me, heavily implies he was already mythic. Probably level 20 with 10 mythic tiers.
Creative Director
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... Aroden spent a grand total of 1 minute as a 10-tier para-godActually, he spent a while wandering around doing things post-Starstone and before he became a full god (e.g. Deskari, Tar-Baphon Round 1). So there's that to consider.
... not to mention being harassed by folks who could cast Greater Planar Ally/Binding.I laughed. Nice phrasing.
The starstone can indeed do more than ONLY grant mythic tiers. We haven't finished talking about it yet.Any hints? You can be cryptic about them if you like. I certainly won't mind.
Nope; no hints yet. Let's let what we've just said settle in for a while at least!
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I don't know if that's a good idea. Before we had "this thing turns you into a god" now we have "this thing vaguely gives you mythic power and somehow you become a god." now we're gonna have people arguing about how to use the darn thing in campaigns for who knows how long until you put in the exact rules for how it works.
I think the point is that there's a book on sources of Mythic power, and we've been told the Starstone is one of those sources.
It isn't a change, it's more we were told:
"This thing can turn people into gods"
And now we've also been told:
"It can also grant mythic power"
It isn't a change, it's an additional option on how it can be used.
I also don't really see any reason for arguments over how it's used in campaigns. It's used however an individual GM sees fit. If they want to open its mythic option to players, they can do that. If they want to have it do something else instead or as well, they can do that. If they want to leave it all mysterious, entice their players to enter and see what happens, and then spring the surprise result - they can do that too.
Way I see it, people who "pass" become gods, actual real gods. However, in order to quantify in game terms what this might mean, they are granted mythic levels (or more powerful versions of them). Aroden was no doubt one with mythic levels already, and Cayden and Iomedae may very well have mythic tiers as well (and Norgorber may or may not have, never can tell with them...).
So, maybe this is what happens: You have your classes. Then you have your mythic tiers. Then you have divinity, whether lesser or greater. Demon Lords, Archdevils, and other similarly powerful beings have lesser divinity, able to grant spells and act in truly epic ways. Actual full blown deities, from Gozreh and Pharasma to Desna and Abadar, have full divinity and have access to more domains that they can grant. Aroden, in raising the Starstone, somehow was able to access full divinity. I doubt they actually had to pass a test, but simply gained it.
Now Aroden liked his new found (and no doubt welcomed) divine self, and decided he wanted to let others experience similarly. However, while one may like fireworks, you never give them to those who are incapable of using them well, like children or people with mental handicaps. So once placing the Starstone upon it's pedestal, he erected the test to go around it. I doubt it's the same thing for everyone, with all those going in experiencing a unique and no doubt beyond difficult for 99.9999% of those who attempt it. But that .0001%! Auto-divinity! And with it all the rights and privileges, as well as the responsibilities that go with it.
This may imply there are 3, possibly 4, maybe even 5 different leveling systems in Pathfinder. Regular classes and Mythic tiers are established. Then you have divine ranks, hinted at with the scaling number of domains a divinity can grant access to. The fourth one is epic levels, but Paizo has more or less made it more or less clear that they want to avoid adding more levels to preexisting classes, favoring you go into a prestige class preferably, or picking up a second class.
The fourth one is epic levels, but Paizo has more or less made it more or less clear that they want to avoid adding more levels to preexisting classes, favoring you go into a prestige class preferably, or picking up a second class.
I have to say I like this (and it's the system I use for "epic levels" in PF), as I often need two classes to fit a concept and the idea they could hit L20 with things they can still learn but somehow not able to learn them just feels wrong to me.
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I don't know if that's a good idea. Before we had "this thing turns you into a god" now we have "this thing vaguely gives you mythic power and somehow you become a god." now we're gonna have people arguing about how to use the darn thing in campaigns for who knows how long until you put in the exact rules for how it works.I think the point is that there's a book on sources of Mythic power, and we've been told the Starstone is one of those sources.
It isn't a change, it's more we were told:
"This thing can turn people into gods"
And now we've also been told:
"It can also grant mythic power"
It isn't a change, it's an additional option on how it can be used.
Except that it has never been used to ONLY grant mythic power to any of the THOUSANDS of postulants who did NOT end up as gods. Including those who were already mythic.
The end result as all of Golarion knows it is still the same : those who take the test of the starstone become gods or die in the attempt.
There is NO candidate that took the test and emerged alive and with mythic powers but NOT a god.
The end result as all of Golarion knows it is still the same : those who take the test of the starstone become gods or die in the attempt.There is NO candidate that took the test and emerged alive and with mythic powers but NOT a god.
I'm more than happy putting that down to the fact that most of the population of Golarion wouldn't recognize the difference between a God and a Mythic individual, especially as their idea of what it takes to be a God tends to be somewhat inferior to our own.
Or, another option worth bearing in mind: If the test is one you can succeed partially in, if you received the equivalent of a 50% grade and the Starstone gives you mythic power instead of making you a god, are you going to walk out and say you didn't score high enough, or just tell everyone you decided not to take the test after all? ;)
It just takes a small step for us to tell ourselves we may not have heard the entire/most accurate story before (especially as James himself has said above we haven't heard the full story yet) - or simply just rule in your own campaign that it can't be used to get mythic power after all, and problem solved.
Except that it has never been used to ONLY grant mythic power to any of the THOUSANDS of postulants who did NOT end up as gods. Including those who were already mythic.
The end result as all of Golarion knows it is still the same : those who take the test of the starstone become gods or die in the attempt.
There is NO candidate that took the test and emerged alive and with mythic powers but NOT a god.
Incorrect. Right from the early descriptions we know there are many people who survive the Cathedral, exit with wealth and power, but didn't pass the Test. Of course, there are a lot more who just die.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The starstone can indeed do more than ONLY grant mythic tiers. We haven't finished talking about it yet.Any hints? You can be cryptic about them if you like. I certainly won't mind.
It can also grant you a hairstyle that really complements your facial features.
Incorrect. Right from the early descriptions we know there are many people who survive the Cathedral, exit with wealth and power, but didn't pass the Test. Of course, there are a lot more who just die.Except that it has never been used to ONLY grant mythic power to any of the THOUSANDS of postulants who did NOT end up as gods. Including those who were already mythic.
The end result as all of Golarion knows it is still the same : those who take the test of the starstone become gods or die in the attempt.
There is NO candidate that took the test and emerged alive and with mythic powers but NOT a god.
? Where?
It can also grant you a hairstyle that really complements your facial features.The starstone can indeed do more than ONLY grant mythic tiers. We haven't finished talking about it yet.Any hints? You can be cryptic about them if you like. I certainly won't mind.
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? Where?Incorrect. Right from the early descriptions we know there are many people who survive the Cathedral, exit with wealth and power, but didn't pass the Test. Of course, there are a lot more who just die.Except that it has never been used to ONLY grant mythic power to any of the THOUSANDS of postulants who did NOT end up as gods. Including those who were already mythic.
The end result as all of Golarion knows it is still the same : those who take the test of the starstone become gods or die in the attempt.
There is NO candidate that took the test and emerged alive and with mythic powers but NOT a god.
Just back from doing a bit of digging:
Although hundreds enter the massive structure every year, and only four are known to have ever won the ultimate prize of divinity, a few brave explorers have escaped the cathedral with their lives—and sometimes vast treasures.
So it does appear we have confirmation of a varying set of rewards being available. Perhaps due to degree of success in the test, or because of people choosing to leave with lesser rewards before completing every stage.
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? Where?Incorrect. Right from the early descriptions we know there are many people who survive the Cathedral, exit with wealth and power, but didn't pass the Test. Of course, there are a lot more who just die.Except that it has never been used to ONLY grant mythic power to any of the THOUSANDS of postulants who did NOT end up as gods. Including those who were already mythic.
The end result as all of Golarion knows it is still the same : those who take the test of the starstone become gods or die in the attempt.
There is NO candidate that took the test and emerged alive and with mythic powers but NOT a god.
Inner Sea World Guide, page 39:
"Although hundreds enter the massive structure every year, and only four are known to have ever won the ultimate prize of divinity, a few brave explorers have escaped the cathedral with their lives—and sometimes vast treasures. Their descriptions make it clear that within the rock and walls of the cathedral, magic doesn’t always work properly, extradimensional movement is impossible, and the Cathedral itself regularly changes its configuration, challenges, and guardians."
I like the changing configuration reference, as it really does give the GM an easy way to ensure player characters can't reach "the bit that allows you to become a god" if they choose, and channel them towards the mythic ascension ... thing. :)
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Creative Director
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The Starstone was ALWAYS intended to be something that can give multiple awards (and punishments). Becoming a god is the ultimate of those rewards, and certainly the one that the most folks talk about, and it's certainly the one that most folk in the Inner Sea Region (and apparently here on Earth! :) talk about the most.
The Starstone was ALWAYS intended to be something that can give multiple awards (and punishments).
Ooo.
Multiple Punishments
Oh dear. If and when my players get there, I can see some fun times approaching!
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The Starstone was ALWAYS intended to be something that can give multiple awards (and punishments).Ooo.
Multiple Punishments
Oh dear. If and when my players get there, I can see some fun times approaching!
I can see it being similar to the scene in Thor, when he sneaks past a few S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents, beats up a load more, reaches for the Hammer, ready to re-ascend......and then nothing!
Ascension is only for the worthy!
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Ascension is only for the worthy!
Which makes Iomedae look like so much more of a mook than a legit god like Cayden and Norgy. I bet it is a contributor to her stern demeanor too, "You mean to tell me I did ALL of this *points to her holy book*, and yet I still ascended to little more than a solar? That guy wandered in drunk, for Aroden's sake, and what did he get? Full on divinity! I call shenanigans! It must be *insert BBEG here*. Who's up for a crusade?!"
I know I'm keeping it the way it is in my head, but I don't hold anything against the devs for changing it.
The Apotheosis into full-fledged Godhood is still shrouded in mystery. To fully pass the Test of Starstone, you had to be judged worthy. That has not changed, and we still do not know exactly HOW powerful the True Gods are. Or what it is to be deemed worthy in each gods eyes.
it's not clear that Cayden wasn't already mythic and we know literally nothing about Norgorber other than he passed the test. Also we don't know if either of them went immediately to godhood or if they had an extended "apprenticeship" as Iomedae did. I like the idea that some people are able to enter the Test and not "fail" but still not become a god.
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Plus, Nethys and Irori didn't need the Starstone; one managed to Mythically irradiate himself somehow, and the other one just left his physical body behind after achieving ultimate enlightenment.
Due to the fluid nature of the Starstone, its cathedral, and religion in the Pathfinder setting, I'd be fine with an answer to "how it works" being, "figure it out for yourself". If players want to undertake a Test of the Starstone, that's for the GM to tailor specifically to their characters.
Though I thought, at first, that goodhood would involve dying or otherwise leaving the physical world, the idea of hanging around after completing the Test opens up more possibilities: at Mythic Tier 10, travelling the world in order to strengthen your cult of personality into a fully-defined faith.
It's too bad Razmir's too busy running his own nation; he otherwise could have legitimately attempted it, though not being Mythical would probably make it too risky.