Suggested Errata: Fury's Fall (Combat Feat)


Homebrew and House Rules


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Okay, so after pouring over a multitude of discussions on the subject, I have come to the conclusion that the feat Fury's Fall from Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils is badly in need of an FAQ/Errata update.

Currently, the feat reads as follows:

Fury's Fall (Combat):
You can use strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.

Prerequisites: Improved Trip.

Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.

- - - - - - - - - -

The descriptive text makes the intent of this feat fairly obvious, but the benefits as written have led many to infer that certain builds would allow them to double-dip Dex on a trip. I was one of those people!

However, looking at the descriptive text, I would like to request the feat be FAQ'd/Errata'd as follows:

Fury's Fall (Combat) - Suggested Errata Version:
You can use strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.

Prerequisites: Improved Trip.

Benefit: When making trip attacks, you may calculate your CMB using both your Strength and Dexterity bonuses. Characters with the Weapon Finesse and/or Agile Maneuvers feats may use Fury's Fall to add their Strength bonus to their otherwise DEX-based trip CMB total, while all other characters may add their Dexterity bonus to their otherwise STR-based CMB total.

- - - - - - - - - -

This edited version forces the feat to function as intended, with no questions to be asked. It also servers the function of allowing DEX-based trip builds to potentially gain the same benefit from this feat that STR-based trip builds get. Everybody wins, and there is no confusion.

Thank you for taking the time to read my suggestion.

Grand Lodge

This belongs here.


Thanks, blackbloodtroll. I wasn't sure where to put it. (No witty retorts to that, hahaha!)


And done!


I doubt it will ever get errata. I can't think of a single companion books that has been errata. They only seem to do the core books, more then likely because they get sold more and end up printing more copies. Same seems goes for FAQ information. I have only seen FAQ of core stuff.


That's lame. How hard is it to add an FAQ/Errata to their website? Seriously. I'm not suggesting they edit the book before the next printing! Hahaha!


I just had a quick thought. How should Fury's Fall work in conjunction with the Guided Weapon weapon property? I'm thinking that, since it allows the character to substitute Wisdom for Strength, it would allow the character to add both their Dexterity and Wisdom bonuses to their CMB. Alternatively, I suppose it could be ruled that using a weapon with the Guided quality would allow the character to add Wisdom and either Strength OR Dexterity (but not STR and DEX) to their CMB.

I can see the logic in allowing all three. The feat implies you've learned how to use your Strength and Dexterity in conjunction for an optimal trip, and the Guided enchantment imbues the wielder with the ability to utilize their instincts and, well, Wisdom to know the best how, where and when to strike.

But allowing three ability bonuses might be too much, even if it only does apply to one combat maneuver type. XD

Dark Archive

You can already do that. Even if you are a finessee fighter, you can still choose to use your strength to make a trip. Then you're adding your (strength + dex)

So if I'm a fighter with greater trip, Str 14 and Dex 20, and I take Fury's Fall, I will use my str for the trip and add dex (choosing to ignore the Weapon Finessee feat for a bit), and trip them. When I trip them, I can weapon finessee on the AOO I get from Greater trip to do some damage.

Your interpretation actually confuses matters; since it might read finessee fighters can replace str and do (Dex + Dex). So my trip fighter/monk in PFS might take this, and despite having a 7 str and 26 dex, do (Dex + Dex) to trip. That would be amazing... too amazing. That's the reason the "double dipping" rule is there to prevent this.

As to the Wisdom, Guided isn't legal in PFS or most of Pathfinder, but Sensei is. Sensei lets you substitute Wisdom for Strength on CMB (as well as attack and damage for unarmed strikes/monk weapons). A Fury's fall sensei would be able to replace Strength, then add dex (by the current wording but NOT by your changed wording). So by the current wording, the sensei (and the Guided weapon) would use (Wisdom + Dex) to determine the trip.


I don't know but if you go look at the FAQ you will notice it is only core books, and if you go look at some of the core books they have Errata you can download. None of the other books have been done. It may be that with # book development and small staff limit the amount of time they can work on such things. Also Core books are going to sell more then anything else because they can be used in any setting and they are the bases for all rule functions. Companion books are all setting stuff with lots of fluff with a few extra feats or alternative options that fit the setting and theme of the book.

good example of this is the The Inner Sea World Guide, I think it was published in 2011 and the hell knight prc is loaded with confusing wording and things that should be clarified but has never been touched. such as the pendemtic faith power. Even the table has a typo in it. in the section for hell knight armor it states at you can move at full speed in this type of armor when you get the ablity at level 2 and the max dex and ac check penalty goes down 1 every time it increased, but on the level up table it says you do not get the ablity to move at full speed until level 8th level in the class.

Digital Products Assistant

Merged threads.


KainPen wrote:
None of the other books have been done. It may be that with # book development and small staff limit the amount of time they can work on such things.

Adventurer's Armory received a FAQ/Errata update upon it's second printing. That was an exceptional case though.


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Thalin wrote:

You can already do that. Even if you are a finessee fighter, you can still choose to use your strength to make a trip. Then you're adding your (strength + dex)

So if I'm a fighter with greater trip, Str 14 and Dex 20, and I take Fury's Fall, I will use my str for the trip and add dex (choosing to ignore the Weapon Finessee feat for a bit), and trip them. When I trip them, I can weapon finessee on the AOO I get from Greater trip to do some damage.

I'm not arguing this. The point was that the text in the benefit could be (and has been by many, based on my research) interpreted to allow a double-Dex-dip if used in conjunction with Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers. (I am aware there is an official ruling on that, but it took a lot more research to find that.)

Thalin wrote:
Your interpretation actually confuses matters; since it might read finessee fighters can replace str and do (Dex + Dex). So my trip fighter/monk in PFS might take this, and despite having a 7 str and 26 dex, do (Dex + Dex) to trip. That would be amazing... too amazing. That's the reason the "double dipping" rule is there to prevent this.

My initial interpretation of this feat as written is EXACTLY why I suggested an errata for it. I was confused. After much, much, MUCH research, I discovered that my original interpretation of the feat was inaccurate. I sought to shore up confusion by suggesting clarification. Perhaps my edited version only needed the first sentence, but I sought to make sure there was no way to misinterpret the feat, so I added in the bits about Weapon Finesse and Agile maneuvers.

Thalin wrote:
As to the Wisdom, Guided isn't legal in PFS or most of Pathfinder, but Sensei is. Sensei lets you substitute Wisdom for Strength on CMB (as well as attack and damage for unarmed strikes/monk weapons). A Fury's fall sensei would be able to replace Strength, then add dex (by the current wording but NOT by your changed wording). So by the current wording, the sensei (and the Guided weapon) would use (Wisdom + Dex) to determine the trip.

I don't play Pathfinder Society, so I couldn't really care less what they allow, only what my GM allows. I ran the enchantment by my GM and he said he'd allow it. Like myself, he doesn't see why there shouldn't be feats to allow players to use their DEX or INT or WIS or CHA as their primary attack stat... say one feat for attack bonuses, a second for damage bonuses (both as replacers). There are those who would argue "But... but... but that's ALL that STR does! *boohoo*" To that, I suggested implementing feats that allow the use of STR on Reflex Saves (call this one "Brutal Defense") and on with certain skills (call this one "Muscular Coordination") in place of DEX. There are other ways that feats could be implemented to make STR more valuable, and implementing ATT/DMG replacers doesn't bypass certain feat requirements (like Power Attack).

I digress.

So, I would guess that a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists would allow my WIS-based monk to use WIS+DEX with Fury's Fall rather than STR+DEX. Does that sound right?

@ KainPen: Hey, maybe it won't get errata'd, maybe it will. I just throw the suggestion out there, hope for support on the matter, and see what happens. ;)

@ Chris Lambertz: Thanks for merging the threads... I didn't know how to just delete the one that was in the wrong place. :P

@ Majuba: The fact that they have done it at least ONE time sets a precedent for possibility. Am I right? LOL!


You get the full benefits of Agile maneuver and Fury's Fall or Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall.

Fury's Fall adds dex 'TO' your CMB 'WHEN' you make a trip attempt.

It doesn't change your CMB, it is an added bonus to your CMB.

Your CMB is calculated, and is a 'final figure'. Normally, you just roll a d20 and add your CMB to determine success.

With Fury's Fall, you roll d20, add CMB and add dex to determine success.

Example:
Str 12 Dex 18 Bab +4 Feats: Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, Agile Maneuver Weapon: +1 Guisarme

Your CMB is 8 (4bab+4dex)

When you make a trip attempt, you roll d20 + 8(cmb) + 4(dex) +2 (imp trip) +1(enhancement from guisarme) for a total of d20+15

//////

Similarly... When determining your character's HP, no one seems to freak out that you are adding your con mod over and over and over and over again. A level 20 character has con mod times TWENTY in his HP total. But, because of the sequence, it is legit. Your HP gets a total at level 1. Then, each time you level, you use the con mod in the calculation for HP gained. And you get a new total. Repeat for each level. The con mod is never actually added to itself, it is only added to total hp. Once it has been added to total HP, the new amount becomes your new total hp, ready for you to increase again the next time you level.

Summary: Fury’s Fall adds your dex bonus “to” your CMB “when” you trip. It doesn’t change your CMB at all. Agile maneuver changes how you “determine” what your CMB is.


Remy Balster wrote:

You get the full benefits of Agile maneuver and Fury's Fall or Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall.

Fury's Fall adds dex 'TO' your CMB 'WHEN' you make a trip attempt.

It doesn't change your CMB, it is an added bonus to your CMB.

Your CMB is calculated, and is a 'final figure'. Normally, you just roll a d20 and add your CMB to determine success.

With Fury's Fall, you roll d20, add CMB and add dex to determine success.

Example:
Str 12 Dex 18 Bab +4 Feats: Improved Trip, Fury's Fall, Agile Maneuver Weapon: +1 Guisarme

Your CMB is 8 (4bab+4dex)

When you make a trip attempt, you roll d20 + 8(cmb) + 4(dex) +2 (imp trip) +1(enhancement from guisarme) for a total of d20+15

//////

Similarly... When determining your character's HP, no one seems to freak out that you are adding your con mod over and over and over and over again. A level 20 character has con mod times TWENTY in his HP total. But, because of the sequence, it is legit. Your HP gets a total at level 1. Then, each time you level, you use the con mod in the calculation for HP gained. And you get a new total. Repeat for each level. The con mod is never actually added to itself, it is only added to total hp. Once it has been added to total HP, the new amount becomes your new total hp, ready for you to increase again the next time you level.

Summary: Fury’s Fall adds your dex bonus “to” your CMB “when” you trip. It doesn’t change your CMB at all. Agile maneuver changes how you “determine” what your CMB is.

Thank you for EXACTLY illustrating the confusion with this feat (Fury's Fall). The RAW would suggest you are correct, meaning a Dex-based combatant could double-dip Dex on when using this feat. The RAI, however, suggest you can use add both Str and Dex for Trip, rather than just Str OR Dex. It's a poorly written feat.

To the point of your confusion, it has been stated that you cannot double-dip stat bonuses. I don't know where the rule is. As I stated earlier, I had to do a LOT of digging to find this, and I'm not inclined to do so again.

TL;DR - No, you may not double dip Dex when using Fury's Fall. You may benefit from your Str AND Dex combined. If you have Weapon Finesse and/or Agile Maneuvers, add your Str modifier to the trip. You MAY NOT gain any given stat bonus more than once on the same attack/maneuver. Period.

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