7heprofessor |
Uh, yeah, you can be a Jedi!
Hand of the Apprentice (Su)
You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike a foe before instantly returning to you. As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Intelligence modifier on the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (damage still relies on Strength). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
But seriously, Arcane Crafter is perfect if you plan to be a magic item craftsman. The free Metamagic x/day is really cool too.
Honestly, the extra spell slots from Specialization is just so much more amazing than any school power one could hope for. They lose a little value as you get higher level and just have tons of spell/day, but your higher level spells are just better and getting more of those just continues to push your power level into Godmode.
Universalists are just not worth it.
Owly |
My Universalist is just getting to level 9, and experimenting with metamagic. I'm having a good time, and don't seem to be underpowered in our group.
However, I wouldn't mind seeing a Universalist have the option of obtaining an additional spell focus or some advantage with their familiar (perhaps able to use both?) to help even-out the fact they don't get extra spell slots like specialists. Its a great advantage having that magic focus as a universalist.
Dasrak |
Unless you really want the school powers of the universalist school or one of its subschools, it's really not worth the sacrifice.
On paper, having to expend two spell slots to prepare opposition spells sounds harsh, but in practice the wizard doesn't have enough spell slots to prepare spells from every school anyways. The true bottleneck of his versatility is the number of spell slots he gets.
LazarX |
Is there a whole lot of point in playing a Universalist Wizard when you get so many more benefits from specializing then grabbing Opposition Research at 9th? Because playing a Specialist Wizard with only the Divination school forbidden is pretty awesome.
You can't forbid Divination.
spalding |
Scavion wrote:Is there a whole lot of point in playing a Universalist Wizard when you get so many more benefits from specializing then grabbing Opposition Research at 9th? Because playing a Specialist Wizard with only the Divination school forbidden is pretty awesome.You can't forbid Divination.
That was true...
for 3.5
A wizard can choose to specialize in one school of magic, gaining additional spells and powers based on that school. This choice must be made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed. A wizard that does not select a school receives the universalist school instead.A wizard that chooses to specialize in one school of magic must select two other schools as his opposition schools, representing knowledge sacrificed in one area of arcane lore to gain mastery in another. A wizard who prepares spells from his opposition schools must use two spell slots of that level to prepare the spell. For example, a wizard with evocation as an opposition school must expend two of his available 3rd-level spell slots to prepare a fireball. In addition, a specialist takes a –4 penalty on any skill checks made when crafting a magic item that has a spell from one of his opposition schools as a prerequisite. A universalist wizard can prepare spells from any school without restriction.
Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot. Wizards with the universalist school do not receive a school slot.
Thaliak |
I thought I would point out the Amulet of Magecraft, a bonded object that allows universalists to pick a school each day, then convert spells from that school into any spell from it of an equal or lower level. I can't claim this makes universalists stronger than specialists, especially since it's only available when you have 10,000 gold to spare and prohibits you from taking a familiar or a bonded item in a less craft-friendly slot. However, it could be a lot of fun for players who want to focus on a specific school, enjoy always having the right divination spell ready, or like changing their schtick frequently.
Ricardo Pennacchia |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, I feel no comfort at all with the "get X magic item" approach for a said class to work as intended. Or even "get X PrC" approach, for the record.
My suggestion to the OP? Go specialist, or houserule an option for universalists, because Pathfinder failed with them (and i say this with a sorrowful heart).
spalding |
Meh, I've played straight universalist before and didn't feel bad about it. The free use of metamagic really went well with the character, and worked well with me.
I don't think my concept would have worked with a specialist (maybe a diviner or abjurationist, but not likely) since I was playing a generalist (spell mastery was taken multiple times).
Douglas Muir 406 |
Honestly, I feel no comfort at all with the "get X magic item" approach for a said class to work as intended. Or even "get X PrC" approach, for the record.
My suggestion to the OP? Go specialist, or houserule an option for universalists, because Pathfinder failed with them (and i say this with a sorrowful heart).
This.
If one of my PCs wanted to play a universalist, I'd try to do something nice for him, just because.
Doug M.
leo1925 |
Cheapy wrote:This and the Meta magic thing was exelent then.leo1925 wrote:What nerf are you guys talking about? when they were any good?During the Beta, they got extra spell slots as well.
Oh ok, i wasn't here then.
Can someone explain to me how did both work or link me to the playtest document?Cap. Darling |
Cap. Darling wrote:Cheapy wrote:This and the Meta magic thing was exelent then.leo1925 wrote:What nerf are you guys talking about? when they were any good?During the Beta, they got extra spell slots as well.Oh ok, i wasn't here then.
Can someone explain to me how did both work or link me to the playtest document?
wizards got a SLA of every spell level they could cast.
Specialists needed to take their spells from ther field of specialication universalists had free pick.And at level 8 meta magic mastery would allow the universalist to have wizard level/2 free levels om meta magic every day.
It was kinda good :)
Karuth |
I don't find the Universalit to be that bad (Wizards are overpowered anyway ^^), however I do think he could have gotten one or two more treats.
Especially since all other schools get 3 abilities, he only 2. I was always puzzled by that. So he gets 1 spell slot less per level, so we give him also 1 ability less to balance it out??
I think it would be fitting to get certain feats as bonus feats. Like Minor and Major Spell Expertise. This would give a few more spell(-like abilities) per day.
Or how about something that allows him to qualify earlier for magic related feats?
For example if he could add 1/4th his wizard level to Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana) and caster level for the purpose of qualifying for feats, he could take Spell Perfection at level 12 or Major Spell Expertise at 13.
Karuth |
@Ricardo Pennacchia
I know there is a Suggestions/Houserule/Homebrew board here. I often post there as well.
The things I mentioned here are not an attempt at a homebrew solution. They are more an attempt to quantify the difference between an universalist and the another school specialists. As in "If he had this ability I'd consider it an equal choice."
But if you think my suggestion was off topic then wouldn't the same be true for discussing the beta version of the pathfinder wizard or the 3.5 wizard?
Majuba |
Additional Beta Universalist discussion:
leo1925 wrote:Can someone explain to me how did both work or link me to the playtest document?wizards got a SLA of every spell level they could cast.
Specialists needed to take their spells from their field of specialication, universalists had free pick.
And at level 8 meta magic mastery would allow the universalist to have wizard level/2 free levels om meta magic every day.
It was kinda good :)
Also the metamagic was not limited in effective spell level. So immediately upon hitting 8th level, a universalist could quicken a 4th level spell once per day. Or empower two of them.
They were *quite* overpowered compared to the specialists, but they were hit on all three of those:
It was overkill - similar to the changes to Paladin smite from Beta to final (or actually Beta to late-Beta): instead of a one-attack bonus to attack and damage, it became a one-creature bonus to attack, damage, and AC, with double damage against three creature types (subsequently errata'd to just the first swing). Certainly any two of those would have made it an amazing ability, all three was overkill, and one alone would have been good.
Jellyfulfish |
Note that the "floating" weapon attacks using your Int mod for to-hit also added the Int mod to dmg. Can't remember if that's the alpha or beta though. And if back then it was unlimited or already 3+int mod times a day. Before bonus spells/metamagic/cap on metamagic would be considered (low level), that made the Universalist a super strong range dmg dealer as well !!!
Majuba |
Oh you're right - yes, that was in Beta as well.
Universalists were simultaneously better than all wizard specialists *and* the fighters. Humans got a free martial weapon proficiency as well, so the wizard in my Runelords game during the Beta was tossing his Greatsword at first level for +5 to hit, 2d6+5 damage. This was not considered a ranged attack (so no Precise Shot needed), and it was indeed unlimited use.
Klorox |
Baronjett wrote:can you take Opposition Research at 9th and 11th and have no opposition schools?No. Opposition Research has no text saying it can be taken more than once, so it cannot.
It's a discovery, not a feat, and there is no text saying discoveries can only benfit from one taking.
SheepishEidolon |
I guess universalists are supposed to use a slightly different playstyle: More crafting. Since you can create any item without this -4 school penalty, it's easier to have scrolls, wands etc. at hand, to add spells per day, if necessary.
On the long run, they also seem to be supposed to make good use of metamagic. Turning e.g. a 4th level spell into a 3rd level one makes up the lost spell slots, to a small extent. Opposed to specialists' additional slots, you are not bound to pick from the according school - and you can decide spontaneously to do metamagic.
Hand of the Apprentice was already mentioned, just one more thing: You don't need other classes to get proficiency in a big weapon. Traits or racial abilities can get you covered already.
Klorox |
OOops, hadn't noticed this was a necro... well, let's see if there is something to say about all this.
Must admit that the specific powers of the generalist are nothing to brag home about, but I still like not having to use two of my already few slotsss to use a good spell... I mean, my oposition schools are usually chosen from enchantment, illusion, and necromancy, and I still like any number of spells from those schools (suggestion, geas, invisibility, enervation...)
Snowblind |
I guess universalists are supposed to use a slightly different playstyle: More crafting. Since you can create any item without this -4 school penalty, it's easier to have scrolls, wands etc. at hand, to add spells per day, if necessary.
Crafting DCs are a bad joke for anything Int based. A level 1 wizard with 18 int and a point in spellcraft can hit the DCs for CL9 scrolls after the -4 penalty.
On the long run, they also seem to be supposed to make good use of metamagic. Turning e.g. a 4th level spell into a 3rd level one makes up the lost spell slots, to a small extent. Opposed to specialists' additional slots, you are not bound to pick from the according school - and you can decide spontaneously to do metamagic.
You get one spell level base plus another one per two wizard levels after 8. I can't think of any particularly good use case given the horrible number of uses. The best thing would probably be something like quickening a single dispel per day at level 14, and that isn't exactly mind blowing.
Don't get me wrong, there are hints of a good class feature poking out there, but the implementation is rather anemic. If the rest of the school was worthwhile then it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but the rest of the school isn't.
Hand of the Apprentice was already mentioned, just one more thing: You don't need other classes to get proficiency in a big weapon. Traits or racial abilities can get you covered already.
That seems like a really questionable idea. Most wizards dump strength to 7, so a greataxe is only dealing as much damage as a light crossbow. Given that this trick sucks badly past level 2, not dumping strength just for a little more damage from an ability you should never use after second level spells open up seems counterproductive. If you just happen to have a character who can do it anyway with no resource investment (such as a half-orc) then you might want to consider it, but even a trait is a stupidly expensive investment for such a trivial ability.
OOops, hadn't noticed this was a necro... well, let's see if there is something to say about all this.
Must admit that the specific powers of the generalist are nothing to brag home about, but I still like not having to use two of my already few slotsss to use a good spell... I mean, my oposition schools are usually chosen from enchantment, illusion, and necromancy, and I still like any number of spells from those schools (suggestion, geas, invisibility, enervation...)
So long as you aren't prepping more than one out-of-school spell per spell level and you always want to prepare at least one specialist school per level, then you don't ever lose anything by specializing. The "cost" is just eating up a slot that you had spare anyway because you have bonus school slots.
Snowblind |
I can't really agree... I'm currently playing a specialist wizard in a hiomebrew campaign, and he never has enough spells beside those in his specialty slots... and he does have the bonus slots for 18 intellignece.
Ok...and if you always get good use out of your specialty slots (i.e. you would fill them with school spells even if you could use them for anything), and you aren't preparing more than one spell per spell level from an opposition school, then it is mathematically impossible for a generalist to ever have more spells in practice than a specialist. You might be tight on spells as a specialist, but unless you are prepping lots of opposition school spells all the time then you would be even worse as a generalist.
Klorox |
Klorox wrote:I can't really agree... I'm currently playing a specialist wizard in a hiomebrew campaign, and he never has enough spells beside those in his specialty slots... and he does have the bonus slots for 18 intellignece.Ok...and if you always get good use out of your specialty slots (i.e. you would fill them with school spells even if you could use them for anything), and you aren't preparing more than one spell per spell level from an opposition school, then it is mathematically impossible for a generalist to ever have more spells in practice than a specialist. You might be tight on spells as a specialist, but unless you are prepping lots of opposition school spells all the time then you would be even worse as a generalist.
You're right, that character is always short without ever studying opposition school spells (the DM makes it extremely hard to even acquire them), so I'd be as badly set if I were a generalist, except my strategy and tactics would be somewhat different.
nennafir |
"Oh, no, my character is slightly less more powerful than every other class than others of my character's class!"
Yeah, but it is my opinion that most players don't really optimize globally. Rather, they locally optimize. That is, they think up a character concept, and get a build for that. Then they see if any slight tweaks (locally optimize) will make the character better.
In other words, they have their ranger. They are willing to make archetype tweaks and/or changes of feats to make the ranger better. If you tell them, "Don't play a ranger at all. Instead play a wizard," then they will just ignore you. They don't want to play a wizard. They want to play a ranger. If you give them suggestions that will make their ranger better, however, then they will listen to you.
In that setting, it is relevant if universalist wizards are worse than specialist ones.