Explain the Pistolero+Weapon Cord = 12 attacks in Society Play?


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2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I've been reading several threads mentioning this example in Society Play.

All refer to "I've seen X" where X is a Pistolero archetype, using TWF, weapon cords and gaining 12+ attacks per round.

I am having trouble finding this exact build, gear and the action breakdown.

I have not seen this in play in my gaming groups. (PFS Online and Vegas Gamers).

How does one get that many attacks in a round?

Thanks.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Since it is now a move action to recover a weapon with a weapon cord, I doubt you'll be seeing this anymore.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Rerednaw wrote:

I've been reading several threads mentioning this example in Society Play.

All refer to "I've seen X" where X is a Pistolero archetype, using TWF, weapon cords and gaining 12+ attacks per round.

I am having trouble finding this exact build, gear and the action breakdown.

I have not seen this in play in my gaming groups. (PFS Online and Vegas Gamers).

How does one get that many attacks in a round?

Thanks.

Step 1: Get to the point where you can reload a one-handed firearm as a free action (using Rapid Reload and paper cartridges).

Step 2: Take the TWF feat(s).
Step 3: Get two double-barrelled pistols, each on a weapon cord.
Step 4: Start your turn with one gun in hand and one dangling.

Now for your actual turn:
Declare a full-attack action.
Fire both barrels of your pistol, at your highest BAB, minus pentalties for TWF and for firing both barrels.
Reload as a free action, because your second hand is free.
Repeat until you've made all available attacks with that hand (all iteratives plus extras for double-barrels).
Drop that gun as a free action. Now THAT hand is free.
Retrieve the second gun as a swift action.
Take all of your TWF attacks, doubled because of double-barrelled-ness, reloading as a free action.

That's my understanding, anyway.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

I actually have never witnessed it either but lets start with a BAB of 11 to give you a full attack routine of 3. Add one more for Rapid Shot and one more for Haste (Boots of Speed). That's 5. Add in two weapon fighting for a 6th attack (and this is where all the free/swift action stuff really starts getting messy because you need a free hand to reload a firearm). And then another one for Improve Two Weapon Fighting. That is 7 attacks. Now double all of those attacks because you are firing both barrels of a double barrel pistol. That's 14 attacks at 11th level, albeit some of those are with a -18 to the attack roll (-21 with deadly aim). But, of course, that is going against touch AC, which actually tends to go down as you get higher in level.

Grand Lodge 5/5

So Nefreet. Is the move action for PFS or all pathfinder?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Double barrel pistols. Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting. Greater two weapon fighting. Weapon cord. 11 the level for 3 attacks with BAB. Rapid Shot.

P1 is Pistol 1.
P2 is Pistol 2.

P1 fires both barrels attack action with two attack rolls.)
P2 fires both barrels.
P1 Drop pistol (free action).
P2 reload both barrels (2 free actions)
P2 shoot both barrels as Rapid Shot.
P2 reload
P2 shoot both as second iterative
P2 reload
P2 shoot both as third iterative
P2 reload
P2 drop
P1 recover ( swift action prior to new FAQ)
P1 shoot both as itwf
P1 reload
P1 shoot both as gtwf

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Viskous wrote:

So Nefreet. Is the move action for PFS or all pathfinder?

Weapon cords have been errata'd to be a move action instead of a swift. Here is the FAQ.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...

We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state (including his own, by the way; he claims he never intended to build it that way, but when the path presented itself he just had to in order to see if it could be done).

I was told that he played at the seeker table of Race for the Runecarved Key and took out the CR 15 and CR 17 challenges all by himself before either creature could act.

Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

All of Pathfinder, Viskous.

The 14 attacks are still possible, but you need some other means of hanging a weapon out and retriving it as a swift action. Tieflings with prosthetic tails might become more popular. Learning the alchemical secrets to growing a third arm (although that delays that +11 BAB). Monkey belts.

My take is that if somebody wants to devote that much time and treasure (boots, belt, guns and ammo) to getting 14 attacks off at Level 11, cool. Stuff you're fighting at Subtier 10-11 can take it. And when one of the guns jams (which is likely, with paper cartridges in a double-barreled weapon) the whole sequence falls apart anyways.

5/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.

@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.

4/5

Drogon wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...

We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state (including his own, by the way; he claims he never intended to build it that way, but when the path presented itself he just had to in order to see if it could be done).

I was told that he played at the seeker table of Race for the Runecarved Key and took out the CR 15 and CR 17 challenges all by himself before either creature could act.

Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

By that level, he could afford some other means, like gloves of storing, of doing the same thing anyway. Since that's when he gets the pistolero's immunity to misfire, it's also the level that pistolero becomes absolutely absurdly better than the best possible archer. I wouldn't say they are "supposed" to work in a way that eliminates fun for everyone else by soloing everything, but it's certainly how they do work at level 13. We happen to be lucky in PFS in that we only see characters up to 11 in most cases.

4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.

This is true. Bombs are at least highly limited per day if you go throwing off a maximal full attack.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Drogon wrote:
Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Well, I certainly don't think they should be less effective than an archer, because, really, that's all they really are. Just an archer with a different weapon. And I have certainly seen high level archers shred through otherwise tough encounters. Of course, one could argue that maybe archers shouldn't be able to do that either, but that is a different argument.

And, of course, they should not be more effective than an archer, either. Which is what most people feel the TWF gunslinger is.

I have a 10th level PFS Gunslinger myself. He uses a double-barrel pistol and my experience with archers of that level puts him about on par damage-wise as long as I am within 40 feet of the target. Of course, he is a Mysterious Stranger (considered to be a subpar Archtype, though I personally disagree) and not a Pistolero (that definitely has the highest damage potential of any gunslinger, especially once they get Signature Deed at 11th). And I do not use TWF (and never had any intention to).

5/5

Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.
This is true. Bombs are at least highly limited per day if you go throwing off a maximal full attack.

It's like they're incorporeal (which would be awesome, but is not even close to balanced). Big bad things have horrible touch AC. No better way to kill a tarrasque than a group of gunslingers with +6 equivalent guns.

4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.

3/4 BAB would be a mitigating factor, not so much in the "never misses" category, but mainly because it slows the acquisition of iteratives. I have no idea why they made a ranged attacker who targets touch AC full BAB with d10 hit dice and Wis as a secondary combat stat.

Alchemists are further limited by the fact that bomb damage doesn't scale as well as weapon damage and it's a very limited resource: Sure, you can kill a dragon in 1 round, but you can only kill 1 dragon a day that way! (OK, so they just trivialize the obviously dangerous encounter, not every encounter...) (Of course, riders like a no-save confusion effect for rounds/level can break things as much or more than overwhelming damage...)

4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.
This is true. Bombs are at least highly limited per day if you go throwing off a maximal full attack.
It's like they're incorporeal (which would be awesome, but is not even close to balanced). Big bad things have horrible touch AC. No better way to kill a tarrasque than a group of gunslingers with +6 equivalent guns.

Yep, the touch ACs in the bestiary stay static at an average of 12 at all CRs. That basically means that gunslingers are getting more accurate while the target number never moves.

4/5

trollbill wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Well, I certainly don't think they should be less effective than an archer, because, really, that's all they really are. Just an archer with a different weapon. And I have certainly seen high level archers shred through otherwise tough encounters. Of course, one could argue that maybe archers shouldn't be able to do that either, but that is a different argument.

And, of course, they should not be more effective than an archer, either. Which is what most people feel the TWF gunslinger is.

I have a 10th level PFS Gunslinger myself. He uses a double-barrel pistol and my experience with archers of that level puts him about on par damage-wise as long as I am within 40 feet of the target. Of course, he is a Mysterious Stranger (considered to be a subpar Archtype, though I personally disagree) and not a Pistolero (that definitely has the highest damage potential of any gunslinger, especially once they get Signature Deed at 11th). And I do not use TWF (and never had any intention to).

Pistolero with Signature Deed (and particularly with the level 13 ability) can outpace archers even with a single double-barreled pistol, yeah. Mysterious Strangers are less of an issue.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.

Actually I think this mechanic should be extended to crossbows as well.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.
This is true. Bombs are at least highly limited per day if you go throwing off a maximal full attack.
It's like they're incorporeal (which would be awesome, but is not even close to balanced). Big bad things have horrible touch AC. No better way to kill a tarrasque than a group of gunslingers with +6 equivalent guns.

Newsflash: guns hurt. And penetrate armor. Perhaps authors need to get a bit more creative with their big bads. My Akuma clone evil monk BBEG would have no such problems. More templated medium-size BBEG, fewer NPCs that rely on size and huge natural AC. And it also wouldn't be insane to have an NPC that actually has double or triple PC wealth for that level to give the PCs extra challenge.


Drogon wrote:


Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

That is how pathfinder works, generally

EDIT: Getting off 14 attacks at level 11 is almost impossible for a gunslinger though, right?

Spoiler:

Chance of misfire on each shot, the previous one being a success:
(0.85^X) * .15

1: 15%
2: 12.7%
3: 10.8%
4: 9.2%
5: 7.8%
6: 6.6%
7: 5.6%
8: 4.8%
9: 4.1%
10: 3.5%
11: 2.9%
12: 2.5%
13: 2.1%
14: 1.8%

As you can see, actually getting a full attack off as a twf gunslinger is pretty unlikely! This changes at level 13, when misfires go away, but pfs doesn't go that high because level 7 spells lol


Nefreet wrote:
Since it is now a move action to recover a weapon with a weapon cord, I doubt you'll be seeing this anymore.

Still ways to do it though, so you may still see it! Just have to find a way to reload your weapons constantly.

Drogon wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...
We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state

I've seen that weird social stigma before with summoners and barbarians before actually. One strong build changes peoples perceptions of a class. I've also seen it work the other way.

Drogon wrote:
Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Touch attacks and SAD make for a death machine. Starting at 11th pistolero in particular can take signature deed and use that to reduce Up Close and Deadly to 0 grit, and use it on every shot, doing an additional 3D6 per shot for minimal investment. They also rarely miss because touch attack. If I understand pistolero and up close and deadly anyway.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

David Bowles wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
@Drogon: That's why targeting touch AC for your primary attacks (bombs & guns) is stupid.
This is true. Bombs are at least highly limited per day if you go throwing off a maximal full attack.
It's like they're incorporeal (which would be awesome, but is not even close to balanced). Big bad things have horrible touch AC. No better way to kill a tarrasque than a group of gunslingers with +6 equivalent guns.
Newsflash: guns hurt. And penetrate armor. Perhaps authors need to get a bit more creative with their big bads. My Akuma clone evil monk BBEG would have no such problems. More templated medium-size BBEG, fewer NPCs that rely on size and huge natural AC. And it also wouldn't be insane to have an NPC that actually has double or triple PC wealth for that level to give the PCs extra challenge.

True, but that doesn't really help all the mods that have already been written. I find it rather interesting that I have not seen a PFS mod yet with a gunslinger as one of the bad guys. Who knows, maybe we'll get a demonic pistolero in Year 5.

Also, there are a slew of monsters in the various bestiaries, yet in PFS we mostly fight humanoids. I would rather not see module design that favors that even more.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Mark Seifter wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Well, I certainly don't think they should be less effective than an archer, because, really, that's all they really are. Just an archer with a different weapon. And I have certainly seen high level archers shred through otherwise tough encounters. Of course, one could argue that maybe archers shouldn't be able to do that either, but that is a different argument.

And, of course, they should not be more effective than an archer, either. Which is what most people feel the TWF gunslinger is.

I have a 10th level PFS Gunslinger myself. He uses a double-barrel pistol and my experience with archers of that level puts him about on par damage-wise as long as I am within 40 feet of the target. Of course, he is a Mysterious Stranger (considered to be a subpar Archtype, though I personally disagree) and not a Pistolero (that definitely has the highest damage potential of any gunslinger, especially once they get Signature Deed at 11th). And I do not use TWF (and never had any intention to).

Pistolero with Signature Deed (and particularly with the level 13 ability) can outpace archers even with a single double-barreled pistol, yeah. Mysterious Strangers are less of an issue.

While I might be willing to argue that Gunslingers are not a broken class as a whole, I would be hard pressed to argue that Pistoleros are not a broken Archtype.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

trollbill wrote:
Who knows, maybe we'll get a demonic pistolero in Year 5.

*casts pilfering hand on the gun*

5/5

trollbill wrote:
Also, there are a slew of monsters in the various bestiaries, yet in PFS we mostly fight humanoids. I would rather not see module design that favors that even more.

MORE MONSTERS!

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Jiggy wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Who knows, maybe we'll get a demonic pistolero in Year 5.

*casts pilfering hand on the gun*

Good thing he has a weapon cord...oh...wait...that still has an affect because he has to retrieve it as a Move action now.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Kyle Baird wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Also, there are a slew of monsters in the various bestiaries, yet in PFS we mostly fight humanoids. I would rather not see module design that favors that even more.
MORE MONSTERS!

Just... ones with interesting abilities, please. Sacks of hit points that just trade full-attacks with the party in a vanilla damage race are my least favorite types of encounters. Give me abilities and tactics and variety! :D

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Consider it done.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Jiggy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Also, there are a slew of monsters in the various bestiaries, yet in PFS we mostly fight humanoids. I would rather not see module design that favors that even more.
MORE MONSTERS!
Just... ones with interesting abilities, please. Sacks of hit points that just trade full-attacks with the party in a vanilla damage race are my least favorite types of encounters. Give me abilities and tactics and variety! :D

I still think the best variety is found with well-templated NPCs, but I understand why people are tired of humanoids. Maybe we could go a little nuts and template some monsters.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Yay!

Frankly, it's for this reason I'm glad this is "Year of the Demon" and not "Year of the Animal". ;)

Silver Crusade 2/5

trollbill wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Drogon wrote:
Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Well, I certainly don't think they should be less effective than an archer, because, really, that's all they really are. Just an archer with a different weapon. And I have certainly seen high level archers shred through otherwise tough encounters. Of course, one could argue that maybe archers shouldn't be able to do that either, but that is a different argument.

And, of course, they should not be more effective than an archer, either. Which is what most people feel the TWF gunslinger is.

I have a 10th level PFS Gunslinger myself. He uses a double-barrel pistol and my experience with archers of that level puts him about on par damage-wise as long as I am within 40 feet of the target. Of course, he is a Mysterious Stranger (considered to be a subpar Archtype, though I personally disagree) and not a Pistolero (that definitely has the highest damage potential of any gunslinger, especially once they get Signature Deed at 11th). And I do not use TWF (and never had any intention to).

Pistolero with Signature Deed (and particularly with the level 13 ability) can outpace archers even with a single double-barreled pistol, yeah. Mysterious Strangers are less of an issue.
While I might be willing to argue that Gunslingers are not a broken class as a whole, I would be hard pressed to argue that Pistoleros are not a broken Archtype.

The funny part is that we could give the touch AC trick to crossbows and they would STILL suck.

5/5 *

I can't wait for a scenario with a Mysterious Stranger from Bestiary 3 in it. Look it up. Those things... are scary. I had SO much fun with one in *redacted*

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

1 person marked this as a favorite.
David Bowles wrote:

The funny part is that we could give the touch AC trick to crossbows and they would STILL suck.

It's tradition. Crossbows have always been the red-headed step-child of D&D.

My Alchemist uses the Explosive Missile discovery to fire a bomb infused Heavy Crossbow once a round as a Standard action. Someone told me that this makes a Heavy Crossbow broken. My responses was, no, this makes a Heavy Crossbow worth using.

Grand Lodge 2/5

I pray for the day the BBEG of a scenario uses a build like this.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Tradition should be ignored. Crossbows were outlawed by the Pope for their efficacy at killing heavily armored knights (nobility).

Liberty's Edge 3/5

Drogon wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...

We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state (including his own, by the way; he claims he never intended to build it that way, but when the path presented itself he just had to in order to see if it could be done).

I was told that he played at the seeker table of Race for the Runecarved Key and took out the CR 15 and CR 17 challenges all by himself before either creature could act.

Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Really? REALLY? He had to? One can use the rules and campaign guidelines to see if they can 'build' any type of character. Also, they can test out this character by themselves by pitting it against all sorts of things from the Bestiaries (or by running their character through PFS scenarios solo). In summary, lame excuse for making scene-stealing, combat-breaking builds and THEN actually using them in a cooperative game, is, well, lame.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

1 person marked this as a favorite.
David Bowles wrote:
Tradition should be ignored. Crossbows were outlawed by the Pope for their efficacy at killing heavily armored knights (nobility).

Obviously, the edict is still in effect.

5/5

Lanith wrote:
I pray for the day the BBEG of a scenario uses a build like this.

It's really hard to do. Usually these builds use stuff out of a lot of obscure books. Generally speaking, authors are limited to the hardcover stuff and can, on rare occasions, dip into a Companion/Campaign/AP book. The problem is, if we do, we have to reprint the rules from whatever we use in those books and that eats up word count that can better be used elsewhere. Giving non-tricked out BBEGs proper terrain and tactics can be more effective than making some obscure build.

4/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Lanith wrote:
I pray for the day the BBEG of a scenario uses a build like this.
It's really hard to do. Usually these builds use stuff out of a lot of obscure books. Generally speaking, authors are limited to the hardcover stuff and can, on rare occasions, dip into a Companion/Campaign/AP book. The problem is, if we do, we have to reprint the rules from whatever we use in those books and that eats up word count that can better be used elsewhere. Giving non-tricked out BBEGs proper terrain and tactics can be more effective than making some obscure build.

The crazy thing is that this build (and several other extremely strong ones) are possible with just the Ultimate line and the core.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Jiggy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
trollbill wrote:
Also, there are a slew of monsters in the various bestiaries, yet in PFS we mostly fight humanoids. I would rather not see module design that favors that even more.
MORE MONSTERS!
Just... ones with interesting abilities, please. Sacks of hit points that just trade full-attacks with the party in a vanilla damage race are my least favorite types of encounters. Give me abilities and tactics and variety! :D

My wife ran an adventure that had a T-Rex with a Rocket Launcher. Would that do?

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

MrSin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Since it is now a move action to recover a weapon with a weapon cord, I doubt you'll be seeing this anymore.

Still ways to do it though, so you may still see it! Just have to find a way to reload your weapons constantly.

Drogon wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...
We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state

I've seen that weird social stigma before with summoners and barbarians before actually. One strong build changes peoples perceptions of a class. I've also seen it work the other way.

Oh, don't get me wrong: I've seen every class ruined in the eyes of some beholder, somewhere. I know people who hate paladins, monks, rangers, wizards, druids, et.al. just as much as people "hate" the gunslinger.

Except clerics. Everyone loves clerics...which likely explains why there are so few of them around...

But I've never seen a class given this social stigma by one person. It's usually, "All the paladins/monks/druids/insert-hated-class-here(s) I see are OP because <blah>, <blah>." In this case it's, "That gunslinger that he plays is stoopid OP. I'm never playing one and banning them in my home games."

Also: he takes pride in it, so don't think we pick on him or anything (at least, not in a bad-natured way).

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

talbanus wrote:
Drogon wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...

We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state (including his own, by the way; he claims he never intended to build it that way, but when the path presented itself he just had to in order to see if it could be done).

I was told that he played at the seeker table of Race for the Runecarved Key and took out the CR 15 and CR 17 challenges all by himself before either creature could act.

Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Really? REALLY? He had to? One can use the rules and campaign guidelines to see if they can 'build' any type of character. Also, they can test out this character by themselves by pitting it against all sorts of things from the Bestiaries (or by running their character through PFS scenarios solo). In summary, lame excuse for making scene-stealing, combat-breaking builds and THEN actually using them in a cooperative game, is, well, lame.

Like I said in the post above, we picked on him plenty. He's still a fun player, and knew when to back off. But when it was "go time" he didn't bother with decorum.

He's just one of those guys who likes demonstrating how things can work. And in a game like this, sometimes that goes sideways. No big deal.

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Drogon wrote:
He's just one of those guys who likes demonstrating how things can work. And in a game like this, sometimes that goes sideways. No big deal.

I appreciate you defending your player - it's easy to vilify here on the boards. I know several players who go too far in ways, but they aren't the scum of the earth or anything like that.

However - "No big deal" it is not. Completely ruining the challenge of a special event at that high level is a big deal. Happened locally with our own gunslinger and zen archer at the same table, although not *quite* as extreme. There was still upset players who felt useless.

Players who choose to go to these extremes need to understand that it *is* a big deal.

4/5

Drogon wrote:
talbanus wrote:
Drogon wrote:
trollbill wrote:
I actually have never witnessed it either...

We had one in Denver. He singlehandedly ruined all players' perceptions of the class in this state (including his own, by the way; he claims he never intended to build it that way, but when the path presented itself he just had to in order to see if it could be done).

I was told that he played at the seeker table of Race for the Runecarved Key and took out the CR 15 and CR 17 challenges all by himself before either creature could act.

Of course, that was at 13th level. I guess that's how gunslingers are *supposed* to work at that level? Or so everyone keeps telling me. <shrug>

Really? REALLY? He had to? One can use the rules and campaign guidelines to see if they can 'build' any type of character. Also, they can test out this character by themselves by pitting it against all sorts of things from the Bestiaries (or by running their character through PFS scenarios solo). In summary, lame excuse for making scene-stealing, combat-breaking builds and THEN actually using them in a cooperative game, is, well, lame.

Like I said in the post above, we picked on him plenty. He's still a fun player, and knew when to back off. But when it was "go time" he didn't bother with decorum.

He's just one of those guys who likes demonstrating how things can work. And in a game like this, sometimes that goes sideways. No big deal.

I do this too, but if so I always bring another character and talk to the GM to make sure they're OK with it. For instance, I bought a wyroot weapon for 1,000 gp after several people urged me to do so instead of just talking about it back when I was hoping it eould be banned, and I always ran it down with the GM before the game and said I would just shelve it if they preferred but I asked that they make note of the fact that it was a problem item and bring it up with their VOs if so. Shockingly, not one GM had a problem with it, and they just let me use it (granted it's more OP for magus and I was just a monk, so it was less noticeable than it would have been). While PFS is the best possible place to "playtest", since it's a closed and controlled environment, it's important to be courteous to those around you and only include them in your playtest if they are willing. It's what I did for Iakhovas when I was playtesting Crane Style too.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

CWheezy wrote:


As you can see, actually getting a full attack off as a twf gunslinger is pretty unlikely! This changes at level 13, when misfires go away, but pfs doesn't go that high because level 7 spells lol

Incorrect. PFS doesn't produce scenarios of levels 13+ because they are almost impossible to fit into a 4-5 hour slot. It has nothing to do with level 7 spells.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Majuba wrote:
Drogon wrote:
He's just one of those guys who likes demonstrating how things can work. And in a game like this, sometimes that goes sideways. No big deal.

I appreciate you defending your player - it's easy to vilify here on the boards. I know several players who go too far in ways, but they aren't the scum of the earth or anything like that.

However - "No big deal" it is not. Completely ruining the challenge of a special event at that high level is a big deal. Happened locally with our own gunslinger and zen archer at the same table, although not *quite* as extreme. There was still upset players who felt useless.

Players who choose to go to these extremes need to understand that it *is* a big deal.

I should clarify a misconception, I think:

He one-shotted the big baddies in that special because the table wanted him to because they wanted to win the point total. Moreover, the rest of his table was spent (no spells left, no channels, no smites, etc.). He, however, still had plenty of ammo, so rather than "tap out" (which was an option when the monster got put down during that part of the special) they told him, "Go time!" and he did his thing.

I think, actually, that this is the definition of "inclusive" in our little game. They all did their things prior to this part, then he got his chance to really show off. And they won, by the way.

No big deal. (-;

5/5 *

Michael Brock wrote:
Incorrect. PFS doesn't produce scenarios of levels 13+ because they are almost impossible to fit into a 4-5 hour slot. It has nothing to do with level 7 spells.

Topic for a different thread, but I would be happy to have and run scenarios designed for longer than 4-5 hours for level 12+ characters. Requiem of the Red Raven comes to mind as an example.

I'm aware that these would be rare and far between, but I'm just saying I can sell these scenarios as double-slots at some of the gamedays I plan.


Mattastrophic wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Incorrect. PFS doesn't produce scenarios of levels 13+ because they are almost impossible to fit into a 4-5 hour slot. It has nothing to do with level 7 spells.
If they were to have fewer combats in them then the typical Society scenario, instead having a focus on level-appropriate plots and character interactions, they could fit into 4-5-hour slots just fine.

Alternatively, the game tends to turn into rocket tag at some point, which is of course, very fast.

5/5 5/55/55/5

While you CAN break a druid, or a paladin etc. it takes some work and some know-how. You'll see broke druids and non broken druids, so when you see a broken druid its "THAT druid is broken" rather than every druid is broken.

Gunslingers however all come with pretty much the same build right out of the cookie cutter, so if one is considered broken then they're ALL broken.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:

Double barrel pistols. Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting. Greater two weapon fighting. Weapon cord. 11 the level for 3 attacks with BAB. Rapid Shot.

P1 is Pistol 1.
P2 is Pistol 2.
...
P1 shoot both as gtwf

Okay that makes sense. Firing both barrels at a time seems pretty risky as you could blow up the gun (barring dual Greater Reliable enchantment Dorf Gunslingers I suppose.)

And now with weapon cords changed not possible without some other item like Gloves of Storing.

Thanks.

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