The only builds where this is liable to be a major factor is dual wielding gunslingers.
Since you're not asking in the PFS forum, I'm assuming this isn't for PFS games. As such, the answer is ask your GM. I as a GM wouldn't allow it, but I wouldn't have allowed the build in the first place.
In general I would say no, you are not automatically entitled to a rebuild. Kind GMs wouldn't be remiss to do so.
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We need a downvote system on this board.
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actually a haunted oracle. Liked keeping the morning star on the weapon cord. shield in one hand. hand free for casting. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there. But now when I move up to attack--I use move to get there and move to recover my weapon so no attack. Another curse may be better were I to want to attack after moving.
found it. ugggggg
DO NOT WANT
Are you using a heavy or a light shield? With a light shield, you can:
Free Action: Switch the weapon to your shield hand (you will be carrying it, not wielding it).
Standard Actions: Cast spell with somatic components (since you now have a "free hand").
Free Action: Switch the weapon back to you main hand (and will therefore be wielding it again).
Heck, you might not even need to switch hands on the weapon if using a light shield. I forget if being able to carry items in hand (such as with a light shield) is enough to perform somatic components.
@Name Violation: Weapon Cord FAQ
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actually a haunted oracle. Liked keeping the morning star on the weapon cord. shield in one hand. hand free for casting. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there. But now when I move up to attack--I use move to get there and move to recover my weapon so no attack. Another curse may be better were I to want to attack after moving.
You mean that drawback that you were supposed to have and not have easily mitigated? It is a curse after all.
The final answer is ask your GM. Why would there need to be any rules about rebuilding just because the function of weapon cords was changed.
actually a haunted oracle. Liked keeping the morning star on the weapon cord. shield in one hand. hand free for casting. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there. But now when I move up to attack--I use move to get there and move to recover my weapon so no attack. Another curse may be better were I to want to attack after moving.
You mean that "drawback" that you were supposed to have and not have easily mitigated? It is a "curse" after all.
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the curse still affected every other item--and was actually fun to play. It would just be nice if they would treat the weapon cord as drawing a weapon. IE if you have a +1 BAB, you could retrieve the weapon on the weapon cord AS you move. if you didn't move it would still cost a move action.
I guess I don't see how in 30 feet of movement I could not pull the weapon up by the cord.
Karal, I don't know what you mean by "one-time rebuild", as there are retraining rules in the Ultimate Campaign book. Would that cover your problem?
I mean, if it's a problem, you could, by following those rules, retrain all of your oracle levels to cleric or sorcerer or something, and then retrain all of your new levels back into oracle levels; this time you would just pick a different curse.
But unless you're playing in Pathfinder Society, you'll need to ask your GM. In PFS, as far as I'm aware, the answer is "no".
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how much is it to retrain feats? I would just take back any feats I put into fighting--since getting a weapon out is now harder and go to casting feats
I would use spiritual weapon instead of me attacking.
kind of like if I took blackened, I would never depend on attacking either. I only took weapon feats because I could get a weapon ready with cord
Find someone with the feat you want, and then five days per feat.
You have to retrain non-prerequisites first (so last-feats-in-a-chain).
Also, it costs money to retrain. Generally an amount of gold equal to (10 x your level x the days required to retrain).
Look, if you're curious, here's the retraining part of the PRD.
You can't retrain your curse, but you can retrain your class.
You can't retrain your feats that currently serve as prerequisites, but it really doesn't matter what order you retrain things in, from my reading other than that.
Karal, I don't know what you mean by "one-time rebuild", as there are retraining rules in the Ultimate Campaign book. Would that cover your problem?
I mean, if it's a problem, you could, by following those rules, retrain all of your oracle levels to cleric or sorcerer or something, and then retrain all of your new levels back into oracle levels; this time you would just pick a different curse.
But unless you're playing in Pathfinder Society, you'll need to ask your GM. In PFS, as far as I'm aware, the answer is "no".
If its for PFS it'd be best to ask the PFS boards to be honest. You just have to watch for the flurry of "You were playing a broken build and should've seen it coming!" that comes from that environment. In PFS the rebuild rules are far more painful than in regular play, and in regular play you may as well just ask your DM if you can rebuild if he decides to change your character's abilities (which, they really should let you do to be honest, since its no longer the one you made).
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I think for them to even consider allowing a rebuild, they'd want to see your character's build, and you'd want to hope it was reasonable to begin with rather than an abuse of the item.I want to take my dwarven TFW pistolero with double pistols who used weapon cords to reload and convert him to a tiefling TWF pistolero with double pistols using a prehensile tail to reload, got a problem with that? If you do, I'll jus' retrain a level as a witch with the prehensile hair hex. /sarc
Although it creates fewer problems than the free action FAQ the weapon cord change doesn't totally fix the perceived problem. I don't think a true fix can be made without changing the way double pistols & double muskets work, maybe change them so that they can only make both attacks at the same time once per round.
I would say in order to fire both at the same time it should work like vital strike. Standard Action, double the dice and not the bonuses.
Thanks Tacticslion
only 700 gp to retrain the two feats I dont want. No problems there.
Of course! Glad I could help.
If its for PFS it'd be best to ask the PFS boards to be honest. You just have to watch for the flurry of "You were playing a broken build and should've seen it coming!" that comes from that environment. In PFS the rebuild rules are far more painful than in regular play, and in regular play you may as well just ask your DM if you can rebuild if he decides to change your character's abilities (which, they really should let you do to be honest, since its no longer the one you made).Karal, I don't know what you mean by "one-time rebuild", as there are retraining rules in the Ultimate Campaign book. Would that cover your problem?
I mean, if it's a problem, you could, by following those rules, retrain all of your oracle levels to cleric or sorcerer or something, and then retrain all of your new levels back into oracle levels; this time you would just pick a different curse.
But unless you're playing in Pathfinder Society, you'll need to ask your GM. In PFS, as far as I'm aware, the answer is "no".
In general, I agree. However, if a drastic enough rule-change heavily altered the way your character was played, it makes sense (to me) that you might not want to continue to play that character the way you've been playing it... especially since you can no longer play it that way!
Of course, I'm a permissive GM who tends to give out templates, strange items, and other stuff anyway, so...
:)
*Rubs bridge of nose*
*sighs*
Why, with this? Was it really necessary to make this change?
*Rubs bridge of nose*
*sighs*
Why, with this? Was it really necessary to make this change?
... it's actually a lot better than the other FAQ, and I, at least, can see how it would play out in a real situation without hampering gameplay too much.
It's still not great. But it's tremendously better. I really hope the other one gets rescinded, though.
It's not better than the other FAQ since the other one didn't change anything. =/
This affects a LOT more than what they were trying to change. Including the very simple one: Combating Disarms.
Dragons that disarm s#@* are annoying, yo.
Eh, I disagree, but to each their own. I'm not going to fight about it. The other one caused all sorts of problems for all sorts of things, despite "not changing anything". This one only affects weapon cords, which is a vastly smaller sub-section.
Of course, it probably helps that I don't use them much. Sorry it's harsher on you. I can totally understand that. :/
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Lesser of two evils, I suppose.
I would have just preferred something done to double-barreled firearms, instead of this, but after seeing what some of their other possible "solutions" could have been, it is still not as bad.
I may not particularly like it, but it causes less people to completely loose their sh*t.
If you read the free action FAQ, previous to the current change, you would understand.
Ignoring firearms entirely, I think the change from a swift to a move action is a good thing. A 1 sp leather strap shouldn't trivialize an entire combat tactic (disarm), or the corresponding chain of feats (Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm). A successful disarm attempt should result in some lost action economy. Besides, the cord still helps, and you've still got locked gauntlets. What else do you expect for 1 sp?(By the way, locked gauntlets provide +10 against disarm, not immunity)
Disarm is almost always an NPC vs PC tactic in my experience. I think having a solid counter to it is a good thing, since combat maneuevers are already more effective for NPCs anyway.
This affects a LOT more than what they were trying to change. Including the very simple one: Combating Disarms.
Dragons that disarm s@&+ are annoying, yo.
Ignoring firearms entirely, I think the change from a swift to a move action is a good thing. A 1 sp leather strap shouldn't trivialize an entire combat tactic (disarm), or the corresponding chain of feats (Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm). A successful disarm attempt should result in some lost action economy. Besides, the cord still helps, and you've still got locked gauntlets. What else do you expect for 1 sp?
(By the way, locked gauntlets provide +10 against disarm, not immunity)
I could not agree with this more. This errata is one of the best things to come down from PDT in a while.
I thought it was a free action, not a swift action?
Nope, it was a Swift before. Should've stayed that way IMO.
I guess I'm not super peeved about it myself, but it is disappointing.
I think in general moving weapon cords from a swift to a move is a good thing. While it is detrimental to many melee characters by forcing them to reclaim their weapon with a move action and not being able to full attack, I think perhaps that is the way it should be despite not liking it for my characters. It means disarm and panicked conditions are as dangerous as they should be, instead of negating the worst part (losing your weapon).
Still, I have an issue with the FAQ. It was meant to address the problem of gunslingers abusing free actions and weapon cords to reload an essentially unlimited number of times and obtain a very large number of attacks in a round. And as someone sarcastically pointed out earlier, while this means that characters that relied on weapon cords are now in a tight spot these same people playing those characters are going to start demanding rebuilds because their (rule abusing) character no longer funcitons. What this ultimately means it we will start seeing a lot of tiefling gunslinger prehensile tail builds or alchemist (vestigial arm) gunslinger builds. And then we're back to where we were. Only melee characters being the worse for wear instead of those who were intended.
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actually a haunted oracle. Liked keeping the morning star on the weapon cord. shield in one hand. hand free for casting. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there. But now when I move up to attack--I use move to get there and move to recover my weapon so no attack. Another curse may be better were I to want to attack after moving.
keep several morningstars or some other weapon sheathed. you can still draw a weapon as you move from its sheath and not have it count against you. or save up for a glove of storing.
its a bit of an improvement, as it fixes a problem.
i like it better than the alternative, of setting a bar for limiting free actions.
isn't it still possible to do the gunslinger build though with two gloves of storing ? 20,000gp may be a tidy investment for high level characters with that kind of build, to be able to keep pulling their rapid fire schtick.
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Personally, I would allow a character to utilize weapon cords as a swift action if they had the Quickdraw feat. Then again, we play without firearms, so weapon cords have never really been a problem. (Heck, I don't even think anyone in any of our games has used them.)
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...
@Name Violation: Weapon Cord FAQ
So Paizo decided that instead of fixing the Gunslinger they would screw up free actions and an item...
Seems like a dumb solution to me when the problem lied within the class.I don't really mind the weapon-cord change, and in fact do agree with it, but think that if there was a problem with a class then you fix the class. This is more treating the symptoms than treating the cause....bad call Paizo.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So Paizo decided that instead of fixing the Gunslinger they would screw up free actions and an item......
@Name Violation: Weapon Cord FAQ
The FAQ on free actions got edited so that now it basically just lists existing rules and says "Don't forget these rules exist", instead of giving examples/suggestions of how many free actions would be reasonable.
Seems like a dumb solution to me when the problem lied within the class.
I don't really mind the weapon-cord change, and in fact do agree with it, but think that if there was a problem with a class then you fix the class. This is more treating the symptoms than treating the cause....bad call Paizo.
There wasn't a problem with the class; there was a problem with the combination of the class and the item. That problem is gone now.
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personally i've been baffled how a 5lb. sharp metal stick dangling from your wrist *doesn't* get in the way. it'd be like fighting while carrying a bag of groceries to me.
Yeah, they left the entire "may interfere with finer actions" thing out. All they had to do was list reloading any weapon as a finer action or disabling a trap, or picking up small items....I mean come on, I have a 5lb weapon hanging from my wrist, if I try to pull an arrow out and shoot my bow this thing is liable to flail about like a....well....ummm.....flail. That would either slow down the loading action or negate it entirely "in my opinion". (you never see that typed out any more) They could have went a number of ways to fix the problems with certain builds that use these things but instead they went with a ridiculous fix.
There wasn't a problem with the class; there was a problem with the combination of the class and the item. That problem is gone now.
Well, that combination is, but there are still ways to end up with TWF + Double barrel through magic or a 3rd arm. They just aren't quiet as easy to nab as weapon cords.
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Actually, it was the combination of the Pistolero archetype, Double Barrel Pistols, two weapon fighting, and Weapon Cords, with a number of other various feat and class features that caused issues.
This got to it's high point around 11th level, and though it still didn't quite outdo a really well built archer, it was angering quite a few.
So, the whole change with weapon cords, just makes the whole combo just a little harder to pull off.
i've seen enough alchemist/gunslingers and tieflings with tails...
Oh a tiefling! That's a good way to do it. Asura Spawn even have a bonus to wisdom and dex. Though I have no idea what an asura tail would look like...
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Weapon cords were abusive; they both allowed significant abuse of guns AND prevented any monster from ever being written as a "disarm" monster. So yes, the FAQ was necessary, and allowed them to eliminate the silly "workaround" on Free actions that was really just to fix weapon cords.
I still think, as a move action, they are too good.
Weapon cords were abusive; they both allowed significant abuse of guns AND prevented any monster from ever being written as a "disarm" monster. So yes, the FAQ was necessary, and allowed them to eliminate the silly "workaround" on Free actions that was really just to fix weapon cords.
I still think, as a move action, they are too good.
2 things though, is disarm fun? And how often did it come up before weapon cords existed?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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actually a haunted oracle. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there.
Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.
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Is it even fair at this point to point out to the prehensile tail/hair fans that the tiefling's tail allows you to "retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action"?
That is directly from the PRD.
It doesn't say anything about letting you RELOAD A WEAPON as any sort of action at all.
Also, it specifically says in the description for Prehensile Hair that "Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand."
I think it should be pretty clear that reloading a firearm is manipulating a weapon, and therefore not possible with Prehensile Hair.
actually a haunted oracle. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there.Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.
So... Houserules?
There is no rebuild being offered in this instance.
Why not? At least 2 feats for a level 11 TWF gunslinger become moot, as would their second gun if they no longer wanted to use TWF(understandably).