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Hello everyone, I was wondering if any other PFS GM's ever sit down with the people and really explain what is expected of them as players? Would it be unreasonable to build up a little pre-game checklist they can use to quickly verify that they are ready for the game and are running legal characters? I am definetely going to start mini-audits on the days I GM.
The reason behind this is that the other day we were about 75% through a scenario when one of the players fired of an ability for 7 or 8 dice. This raised some eyebrows, so the question was asked about how this was possible. Long story short, there seems to be a 6th level character at our Tier 1-5 table. The GM easily handled the situation, so there wasn't any major fallout at the table, but leads to some questions.
Now I'm not perfect, as a player or a GM, and I realize that none of us our. I am seriously thinking of building a proper character binder, that has everything needed laid out, including chronicle sheets and a master list of scenarios so that they aren't played multiple times (which has also happened).
Has anyone else had a player like this, if so how did deal with them, in a polite manner of course.
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Hello everyone, I was wondering if any other PFS GM's ever sit down with the people and really explain what is expected of them as players? Would it be unreasonable to build up a little pre-game checklist they can use to quickly verify that they are ready for the game and are running legal characters? I am definetely going to start mini-audits on the days I GM.
The reason behind this is that the other day we were about 75% through a scenario when one of the players fired of an ability for 7 or 8 dice. This raised some eyebrows, so the question was asked about how this was possible. Long story short, there seems to be a 6th level character at our Tier 1-5 table. The GM easily handled the situation, so there wasn't any major fallout at the table, but leads to some questions.
Now I'm not perfect, as a player or a GM, and I realize that none of us our. I am seriously thinking of building a proper character binder, that has everything needed laid out, including chronicle sheets and a master list of scenarios so that they aren't played multiple times (which has also happened).
Has anyone else had a player like this, if so how did deal with them, in a polite manner of course.
I don't really set any expectations for the players. I hope they have a good time, and assume they've shown up to do that. I do take a look at character sheets, but it's fairly perfunctory and not an in depth check of anything much. What I look for varies on the scenario usually.
One that that I do do at the start of the table is figure out the APL of the group to start, so that I know what sub-tier to run. This should allow a GM to spot an out of level character before anything gets underway...
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Sniggevert,
Thanks for the advice. This is more of a venting of some frustration, so I figured the GM section would be a good place to do it.
The weird thing is, that the new players we have been getting are pretty quick to figure out the particulars of organized play. I get the usual questions after their first or second session, i.e. do i need ot keep the chronicle sheets or how exactly does leveling work. Myself, I use Herolab exclusively because it keeps me honest as a player and Combat Manager when I GM. I always keep my characters organized in small binders however, so if I can't run the laptop or I am audited I can make it easy for the GM. I show the new guys this and they seem to get it.
The other night started normally, the GM asked what levels we had and did the math. We had some 3's and 4's with one 5th level. When we called him out after the extra dice incident, he honestly couldn't tell us what his character level was, he said he though it was 5. So I look over at his laptop, the program he was using looks exactly like a standard character sheet. So I told him that if he just scrolled up a bit that it would state right at the top what his class and level was. That's how ridiculous this got.
If he was new to PFS or RPGs in general I wouldn't even consider having an issue with this. But he has over a decade of experience with gaming. My opinion is that players in there 30's and 40's really need to present the best image possible to our younger player's. It's the best way to keeping the overall community healthy and growing.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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One that that I do do at the start of the table is figure out the APL of the group to start, so that I know what sub-tier to run. This should allow a GM to spot an out of level character before anything gets underway...
Yeah, this was my thought on the given example as well. You can't run the scenario without determining the subtier, and you can't determine the subtier without finding out everyone's levels, and you can't find out everyone's levels without noticing that someone's out of tier... so I don't know how the situation could happen.
But! As to the general question, I know I've heard of some GMs having little pre-game "speeches", though I personally haven't developed one of my own (yet). I ask for levels (to determine subtier), and I'm generally in the habit of asking for classes so I have some idea of what to expect or what subsets of rules to keep near the forefront of my mind. I also record everyone's initiative modifier on my combat pad. :)
Depending on the scenario, I might also grab other information from the PCs. For instance, The Night March of Kalkamedes prompted me to write up a chart on which I collected somewhere around 8-12 pieces of information from each PC. But as a default for all my games, I don't ask for much besides level, class, and initiative.
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That's the funny part, the GM did ask, went around the table, just like I do when I GM. The typical what's you class, level, init mod, etc... This guy straight up didn't get it right. And it wasn't like he just got the number wrong in his head. I think that he intentionally played a level 6. He's the guy that gets upset when we schedule a game that he has played or he doesn't a character in the level rangs for. I hate to single people out, but this one just completely ended up in the "that guy" category. I want to think that maybe he just honestly screwed it up, but man was it weird.
On the good side however, us experienced GMs are really good at mentoring the new players. We have a steady stream of new people (being in a military community helps) that are really eager to learn how to be great players
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Yeah, despite past experience, I expect players to have at least a passing familiarity with what's on their character sheet. I frequently have to bite my tongue to keep from calling out other players' Perception modifier, the tenth time they go hunting for it on their sheet.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I frequently have to bite my tongue to keep from calling out other players' Perception modifier, the tenth time they go hunting for it on their sheet.
I feel similarly about unmodified attack bonuses. If your 5th-level fighter attacks, and you start saying out loud "So ten on the die, plus five BAB, plus four strength, plus one for masterwork...", you make me want to smack you upside the head. Your BAB and such are not changing from round to round. Write down the total. There's even a spot on your sheet for exactly that.
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Sadly I deal with the not knowing unmodified bonuses all the time. There does come a point where I've memorized certain stats at the table and help the game speed up by telling them what they need on the die (only if they've already determined "Hey that guys AC is 21" or "His DC for 2nd level spells is 17"). I don't like it when they do try to figure out stats from rolls, but what can we do.
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I frequently have to bite my tongue to keep from calling out other players' Perception modifier, the tenth time they go hunting for it on their sheet.I feel similarly about unmodified attack bonuses. If your 5th-level fighter attacks, and you start saying out loud "So ten on the die, plus five BAB, plus four strength, plus one for masterwork...", you make me want to smack you upside the head. Your BAB and such are not changing from round to round. Write down the total. There's even a spot on your sheet for exactly that.
At the same time, I like to break down my attack by stating my roll plus my total modifier. I.e. "I rolled a 7 plus 10 to hit for a 17." As a GM I like when players do this . It also helps us all remember to add our buffs (which we find ourselves missing all too often...)
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That's the funny part, the GM did ask, went around the table, just like I do when I GM. The typical what's you class, level, init mod, etc... This guy straight up didn't get it right. And it wasn't like he just got the number wrong in his head. I think that he intentionally played a level 6. He's the guy that gets upset when we schedule a game that he has played or he doesn't a character in the level rangs for. I hate to single people out, but this one just completely ended up in the "that guy" category. I want to think that maybe he just honestly screwed it up, but man was it weird.
I can honestly say that I would not GM for him in the future without an audit. Every session.
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Yup, audits are on starting this weekend. I'll start with cursory mini-audits on the table as whole, so no one feels singled out. I definetly don't want players to have to feel defensive. More than likely, I'll end up finding errors in their favor.
Some of us older players cross-check each other. With the vast amounts of different stackable and non-stackable bonuses it's easy to miss a few. Even Herolab isn't 100%
Derek's method of calling his rolls is exactly the way I do mine and encourage my players to do. It keeps people from fudging rolls. Which everyone is tempted to do from time to time.
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Derek's method of calling his rolls is exactly the way I do mine and encourage my players to do. It keeps people from fudging rolls. Which everyone is tempted to do from time to time.
I similarly announce my actions at the table:
"Move action to move 30 ft., Standard action to fire my bow, Free action to draw my sword because I have Quick Draw, and Free action to yell obscenities at my Dwarf ally because it makes him angry (and he fights better when he's angry)."
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To a degree, I think players would actually like to know what's expected of them by the GM. Hopefully some of them don't take it as unnecessary restrictions being put on them, but rather as making sure there's no misunderstandings later on (some of which might not get answers, or worse, lead to bad blood).
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Derek's method of calling his rolls is exactly the way I do mine and encourage my players to do. It keeps people from fudging rolls. Which everyone is tempted to do from time to time.I similarly announce my actions at the table:
"Move action to move 30 ft., Standard action to fire my bow, Free action to draw my sword because I have Quick Draw, and Free action to yell obscenities at my Dwarf ally because it makes him angry (and he fights better when he's angry)."
Both of these ideas are really good - if players knew that the GM wanted them to talk about their actions exactly like that (instead of leaving them to do their own thing), they'd likely be more efficient at getting their turns done and clearly communicated.
I especially like the idea of taking free actions to make allies angry!
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RCW: We have had a few issues locally in the past with players who dont bother/ forget to level up when they gain enough chronicle sheets to do so. Even so far as one saying ' Oops.. I should of been 8 in that game not 7 for level' after the game has been complete.
I understand life is hectic and other things get in the way but in a way you are penalising others also at the table.. the difference a high level feat/ spell might make to everyone elses survivability cannot be understated.
With the new Page 35? Shannanigans concerning tiers and playing up or down, Ive now had 2 tables play up because of 1-2 players higher level characters. Makes things very interesting!
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That's one of the things that irked me about the whole mess. Now we were lucky, everyone else at the table were very experienced players so we were able to finish the scenario, and we also let him finish out with a pregen.
I also get that life is hectic, I got the full-time job and family so there are times where I am updating things about 30 minutes before we start. But organization is the key.
With all of my new player's lately I have been using my character binder as an example of how to easily organize your chronicles and inventory log. I think it might be tied to my slight OCD tendencies, I can't stand clutter.
I actually like the new Season 5 rules concerning playing up/down. It keeps certain types of players from gold farming. Locally, we wait until all of the players arrive and then muster the tables based of character levels. It keeps everyone tier appropiate, unless they really want to play up or down.
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RCW: I have lots of those plastic files with the transparent holders for Chronicle/ Character sheets. Essentially one a character. My Routine is to make the changes to herolab when I get home. Save it, remove old character add new one. Then Im done. Takes a little time but I dont like last minute scramble.
As a GM though and as a person I have to have faith in people to understand what it is they are playing and doing. If you are going to play Society and play a .. Witch ... then I have to believe you know the rules for making a character and the rules for evil eyes etc. Otherwise I lose faith in the game and thats not good.
Which is why when I see posts in the general player discussion area on the forums here about pretty simple rules questions that are answered pretty straightforwardly in the free guide to play It does.. irk me mayble a little.. but destroys a little of my faith in the average player.
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As a GM though and as a person I have to have faith in people to understand what it is they are playing and doing. If you are going to play Society and play a .. Witch ... then I have to believe you know the rules for making a character and the rules for evil eyes etc. Otherwise I lose faith in the game and thats not good.
It's funny you mention this one. Sometimes even when my characters get to high levels, in the moment I forget how part of an ability works.
For example, recently I forgot twice in a row how the Ice Tomb major hex works with my witch, having to check up whether it was a will save, a fort save, or a will save then a fort save, how long it lasts. The same thing comes up with the Ward hex (what type of bonus? when does it wear off?) It's a lot of little mechanics you don't think about all the time.
They're all things I thought I knew, right up until it comes up and I get that "wait a second, that doesn't sound right" moment.
Funnily, it comes up more often when I play in person rather than playing online. No idea why - maybe I can focus better at home?
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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It's annoying, but sometimes very experienced players make mistakes. I'm certainly among them, and I would wager that nobody on this forum would be willing to say (without being cheeky) that they never make mistakes in how their characters' abilities work. As an example, today I corrected a three-star GM on the action that it takes to start a bardic performance. His PC was 4th level, and I think that's a fairly basic thing.
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It's annoying, but sometimes very experienced players make mistakes. I'm certainly among them, and I would wager that nobody on this forum would be willing to say (without being cheeky) that they never make mistakes in how their characters' abilities work. As an example, today I corrected a three-star GM on the action that it takes to start a bardic performance. His PC was 4th level, and I think that's a fairly basic thing.
I make mistakes all the time, we all do. Heck, I went two fights in row last weekend rolling d10's for damage instead of d8's. My concern was that I was observing a pattern of intentional ignorance.
My concern with some player's is that they seem to have inclination to learn what mechanics their characters use or where to find them. If your playing a wizard, it would be awesome if you had the CRB (harcover or PDF) available to reference.
If your a new player without a lot RPG experience then my expectations are realistics, they often need help with the rules, no problem, that's my job as a GM and experienced player.
However, if you have 20 years of experience at RPGs, then I assume that you know where to find the description of a "Charm Person" spell. Or maybe make some quick reference notes.
