Need party composition advice, please.


Advice


Hello again advice board, I was hoping for some input on party composition and what class I should bring to the table to help my party. The adventure will be a dungeon crawl, and a hard one at that I'm told. The level we'll be starting off at is 8th. Our party so far is a necromancer of some kind, a skill monkey (possibly bard), a warrior/paladin (2-handed weapon), some kind of scout who is likely to run at the first sign of trouble, and someone else who hasn't decided.

I was considering a witch to add buffing and debuffing capabilities, as well as some control. Is that the best fit for the party or not so much? Another idea I've been floating around is a dragon disciple.

Silver Crusade

The obvious gap to fill is that of primary caster, either arcane or divine. Whichever one the party necromancer is, seriously consider being the other. Clerics make better necromancers, but your ally could be a Wizard. A Witch would be a great fit, if you play an arcane caster. You will probably find yourself playing 'Goddess Witch' style.

Does that skill monkey(Bard?) ally have Inspire Courage? If not, consider being an Evangelist Cleric, of whatever play style you prefer. If Inspire Courage is covered then leave it to the Bard.

Depending on how well healing is covered, you might consider getting the Healing Hex for your witch.

Tark wrote this nice essay about good party composition.


I think a primary healer is called for, either cleric or oracle.


I've asked the necromancer and he's told me that he's arcane based, which means divine caster for me it seems. Also I've always been curious, what does healing mean in pathfinder? I know it calls for healing out of combat, but what about in combat? Should I focus on healing when a main component of the party is going to go down and debuff/buff?

Also not sure what skill monkey is doing yet :/


The traditionally recommended healer is a melee cleric. You just need to have a bit of emergency healing and some open slots you can use for Remove Foo and the various Restoration spells. You prepare stuff like divine favor and righteous might and a few group buffs like prayer.


Hmm seems like it's reach cleric for me then. Time to read that guide...


One dungeon trip at level eight -- he should be told what "healing" is for level eight.


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Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
H some kind of scout who is likely to run at the first sign of trouble,

So a 4 man group and an obligatory mysterious door tester?

Silver Crusade

Atarlost wrote:
The traditionally recommended healer is a melee cleric. You just need to have a bit of emergency healing and some open slots you can use for Remove Foo and the various Restoration spells. You prepare stuff like divine favor and righteous might and a few group buffs like prayer.

This approach is traditional because it works very well. A Battle Cleric heals less than a dedicated healer, but also inflicts considerable martial damage. A fully buffed 9th level PFS reach clericzilla enters combat with DR5/Magic, 124 HP, and attacks at +18/+18/+13 for 2d8+31 or so, quickened True Strike, and up to three AoOs. If circumstances fall just right that is a possible 6 attacks x 40 damage per attack = 240 HP damage from one round of melee attacks. In practice 50-100 damage per round is more typical. From a cleric who is also a full prepared spell caster. All those buffs use 1/2 your spell list, but you still have the other half to heal & play with.

Atarlost wisely advises leaving open spell slots. Do this. He also names core buffs.


Yes, it seems that way. The last person just mentioned they weren't going to optimize at all, so again. Not really counting them at the moment until they have a solid idea.


Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Yes, it seems that way. The last person just mentioned they weren't going to optimize at all, so again. Not really counting them at the moment until they have a solid idea.

I'd pretty much tell them not to bother coming if they're going to act like that. But then I don't know this guy.

Still four guys is more than enough.

Between a bard, a paladin, and an arcane necromancer I agree something like a solid reach cleric will be your best bet.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
The traditionally recommended healer is a melee cleric. You just need to have a bit of emergency healing and some open slots you can use for Remove Foo and the various Restoration spells. You prepare stuff like divine favor and righteous might and a few group buffs like prayer.

This approach is very effective. A Battle Cleric heals less than a dedicated healer, but also inflicts considerable martial damage. A fully buffed 9th level PFS reach clericzilla enters combat with DR5/Magic, 106 HP, and attacks at +18/+18/+13 for 2d8+31 or so, quickened True Strike, and up to three AoOs. If circumstances fall just right that is a possible 6 attacks x 40 damage per attack = 240 HP damage from one round of melee attacks. In practice 50-100 damage per round is more typical. By a cleric who is also a full prepared spell caster. All those buffs use 1/2 your spell list, but you still have the other half to heal & play with.

Wait what. I'm sorry, but I got lost a bit there and I was wondering what the break down of the initial spell buffs were? While I understand where the to hit bonus, I don't understand where the third attack, DR, HP bonus, and damage bonus come from. If it's not too much trouble I'd appreciate the help.

I also forgot to mention we'll be doing a 15 point buy.


Sgt.Sunshine wrote:


Wait what. I'm sorry, but I got lost a bit there and I was wondering what the break down of the initial spell buffs were? While I understand where the to hit bonus, I don't understand where the third attack, DR, HP bonus, and damage bonus come from. If it's not too much trouble I'd appreciate the help.

I also forgot to mention we'll be doing a 15 point buy.

My guess is that it comes from Divine Power (extra attack and hp) and possibly righteous might (more to hit, bigger size, and DR)


Oh, okay. I was also curious about the reach cleric guide written by Brewer. It seems to be fairly up to date, but I was wondering if summoning on a standard and relying on OAs for melee was still a valid way of going about combat as a reach cleric?

Silver Crusade

DR5/Magic is the result of Invulnerability Armor - 15K GP. Also the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier.

Third attack is from someone else's Haste or your own Blessing of Fervor.

HP bonus is from 16 CON, Toughness, +2 CON belt (4K GP), Aid spell at 9th Level, and Righteous Might. Ooops, that should have been 124 HP buffed, from starting 93 HP unbuffed.

Strength and Power Attack alone yield +13 damage. Offensive buffs are Bull's Strength, Weapon of Awe, Divine Favor, Prayer, Inspire Courage aka Bardsong (yours), Greater Magic Weapon, and Righteous Might.

Defensive buffs are Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Free Action, Communal Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, and possibly a few more. Shield if you can get it.

Many AoOs = Combat Reflexes & good DEX

You will also want to use Shield Other to protect one team mate, probably someone with far fewer HP.


Ah, thank you very much for the break down. So this assumes the evangelist archetype then? Is giving up medium armour worthwhile?


Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Ah, thank you very much for the break down. So this assumes the evangelist archetype then? Is giving up medium armour worthwhile?

Not for you. You get your competence bonuses from the bard. You don't need to duplicate his effort by being an evangelist. Unless he's one of those failbards who doesn't inspire courage.


I doubt he'd be a fail bard, but he may not be a bard. We need a skill monkey, and he's trying to determine how he wants go about it.

Silver Crusade

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:
Ah, thank you very much for the break down. So this assumes the evangelist archetype then? Is giving up medium armour worthwhile?

If you have a Bard who can Inspire Courage you won't want the Evangelist archetype. Ask, though, as some Bard archetypes give this up. Instead you get a second Domain. Suitable domain choices are Travel, Luck, Growth, Strength, and others.

Evangelists lose Medium Armor proficiency. If you take the trait Armor Expert and wear a Mithril Breastplate you have an ACP of 0. You wear Medium Armor anyway, and take the penalty of 0.


That seems pretty cool. So I have a few things to check with the party then. Oh, but on the topic of my other question. Is it worthwhile to do summonings or is just straight up buffing just better?

Silver Crusade

Ideally you buff before combat starts. Your scout should give you the chance to buff before nearly every fight. That's the scout's main job.

Combat summoning can have great utility and be quite powerful. Know your possible summons, with a choice prepared for swimming, flying, darkness, invisible foes, anti-caster, et cetera. You can cast Monster Summoning III (Lantern Archon) before a fight, to get 4-11 temporary hit points on each team member (Aid at will). The best thing your summons do is soak up attacks.

If you summon, you ought to do it either just before the fight starts, or in an early round. There are four useful summoning feats: Spell Focus(Conjuration), Augment Summons, Sacred Summons, Superior Summons. Multiple summons that are all +5 +5 on each attack, which you can manage, are ridiculously effective. Just make sure you share out the summoned creatures for the other players to play. Your own martial abilities are far better than any single Summon Monster you can cast.

If you are caught unprepared (ambushed) you will have to fight with few buffs. Have a plan.


Alright, thank you. I'll be sure to keep that in mind. I guess the rest of my prepared spells will be flexible depending on the dungeons? Besides buffs I mean.


With the Palidian in the group you do not need to be full healer.
Also the Bard should be able to wand of cure light wounds.

So here is what I suggest:
1)Cleric negtive engery channeler and Versatile Channeler.
area effect damage
some healing(for both the party and undead)
Buffing

Feat Extra Channel, Versatile channeler, Abilty focus channel,Seltive channel

2)Rage Prophet 2/ Barbarian 2 /Oracle of battel 4 With Eldritch Heritage Chian (martyer blood line, celestial bloodline or destined bloodline)
Feat: Toughness, Extra Rage, Extra Revilation, Extra Rage Power
Revilation
Surprising Charge (Ex): Once per day, you can move up to your speed as an immediate action. You can use this ability one additional time per day at 7th level and 15th level.

War Sight (Su): Whenever you roll for initiative, you can roll twice and take either result. At 7th level, you can always act in the surprise round, but if you fail to notice the ambush, you act last, regardless of your initiative result (you act in the normal order in following rounds). At 11th level, you can roll for initiative three times and take any one of the results.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): Select one weapon with which you are proficient. You gain Weapon Focus with that weapon. At 8th level, you gain Improved Critical with that weapon. At 12th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus with that weapon. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats.
Rage Power
Spirit Totem, Lesser (Su): While raging, the barbarian is surrounded by spirit wisps that harass her foes. These spirits make one slam attack each round against a living foe that is adjacent to the barbarian. This slam attack is made using the barbarian's full base attack bonus, plus the barbarian's Charisma modifier. The slam deals 1d4 points of negative energy damage, plus the barbarian's Charisma modifier.


With 6 person table pluss an undead horde... I would not put more figs on the board by summoning. Slow down table speed to much.

Rember undead are •Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
Bless is a waste of time on them.


So I have a quick question on the rage prophet. I noticed that on the forums there are some people who are of the opinion that it's not the best prestige class out there. What makes it ideal for the needs of my party in this case?


In my personal opinion, you can never have enough Wizard. More spells= monsters die faster= who needs to heal!

Also, if your skills monkey is a bard, he has Cure spells!


Magda Luckbender wrote:
A Witch would be a great fit, if you play an arcane caster. You will probably find yourself playing 'Goddess Witch' style.

I'm not familiar with the "Goddess Witch" style, but the label piques my interest. Could you elaborate, or give a link discussing the style, please?

Silver Crusade

It was a play on 'God Wizard'. Other wizard styles are blaster, necromancer, summoner, and many others. The 'God Wizard' role does not require a wizard: several other classes can fill the same role on a team. A Witch is especially good at filling this role. Thus, obviously a 'Goddess Witch'.


Ah, I see. Thanks.


I think for simplicity's sake I'll go with a straight cleric for now. The rage prophet is really tempting though.

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