Monks


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Ashiel wrote:

Many of the people who think monks have problems don't care about or even value DPR. I for one am such a person. As both a player and GM, I value defense and problem solving far greater than raw damage. IMHO, DPR is only good for measuring DPR and how much investment it takes you to get good amounts of DPR. Beyond that, it's pretty pointless.

But monks are very bad. With enough splat material they're better, but it increases their complexity and you have to avoid a lot of traps and pit falls.

I don't value DPR much at all. I think monks in general are poor without a lot of system mastery to get the most out of tons of archetypes, races, and splat material. Which with the same you can usually make other classes grossly overpowered.

What? The monks only problems is DPR (mainly to-hit) and how SR works.


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Marthkus wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Many of the people who think monks have problems don't care about or even value DPR. I for one am such a person. As both a player and GM, I value defense and problem solving far greater than raw damage. IMHO, DPR is only good for measuring DPR and how much investment it takes you to get good amounts of DPR. Beyond that, it's pretty pointless.

But monks are very bad. With enough splat material they're better, but it increases their complexity and you have to avoid a lot of traps and pit falls.

I don't value DPR much at all. I think monks in general are poor without a lot of system mastery to get the most out of tons of archetypes, races, and splat material. Which with the same you can usually make other classes grossly overpowered.

What? The monks only problems is DPR (mainly to-hit) and how SR works.

Only?


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Ashiel wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Many of the people who think monks have problems don't care about or even value DPR. I for one am such a person. As both a player and GM, I value defense and problem solving far greater than raw damage. IMHO, DPR is only good for measuring DPR and how much investment it takes you to get good amounts of DPR. Beyond that, it's pretty pointless.

But monks are very bad. With enough splat material they're better, but it increases their complexity and you have to avoid a lot of traps and pit falls.

I don't value DPR much at all. I think monks in general are poor without a lot of system mastery to get the most out of tons of archetypes, races, and splat material. Which with the same you can usually make other classes grossly overpowered.

What? The monks only problems is DPR (mainly to-hit) and how SR works.
Only?

Some people don't just don't see the whole picture.


I think some people just want too much.

Grand Lodge

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Monks are fun. People claim that they're ridiculously MAD, when all they really need is STR, WIS, and CON. Or just WIS if you get a Guided AoMF.

You could argue that they need more help than others with overcoming DR, which is fair, but GMW, weapon blanches, etc.. those all work on a monks fists, feet, butt, forehead..whatever you choose to hit with. Which is another individual strength of the monk, they can't be disarmed, sundered, or otherwise stopped from attacking from most conventional means.

A monk with no arms can flurry of headbutts all day long, still apply enhancements to his headbutts, and gain cool AoMF bonuses no matter what. If a fighter or Barbarian loses their weapon to a Rust Monster, they're done(or at least significantly less powerful for now)

You could also argue that the AoMF is too expensive, which is also fair, but I've always felt the extra cost was to balance the Monk not having to spend that gold on armor. Or, (and I know I'm repeating myself) it's extra cost is because of those magical, immune-to-disarm-and-sundering-headbutts I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I'm sure it's not a flawless argument, just my opinion on why some things are the way they are.


Marthkus wrote:
I think some people just want too much.

Pfft, I don't want too much, I just want everything! Is that really too much to ask for?

That said, over the years there have been a number of issues with monks. Some have changes, some haven't.


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It ain't much I'm asking
I heard him say
Gotta find me a future
Move out of the way!

I want it all
I want it all
I want it all

And I want it now

YEAH


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Marthkus wrote:
I think some people just want too much.

"Enough" is not "too much".

Low DPR itself has many causes, and these need to be fixed individually before the problem goes away. Adding damage, for example, would not fix the monk's problem with accuracy, without which high AC targets take no damage and DPR against them is still low.

MAD: The monk has to rely in more high scores than any other class. Like any other combat class they need to rely on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, with one of the first two maxed out as the hitting stat. But they also need a high Wisdom to make up for their lack of armour. Other combat classes don't have this issue, and those that rely on non-physical stats have abilities that mitigate the need for so many physical stats. The monk has the need for more stats and no mitigation.

BAB: The monk is a 3/4 BAB class that has no boost to hit (all other combat classes have something that boosts their attack bonuses, even those that do not have full BAB). Flurry of blows helps some, but not actually that much.

Enhancement: The monk's enhancement is limited to the AoMF, which is capped at a +5 total for enhancement and properties combined, and costs twice a normal weapon enhancement.

Damage Resistance: Ki-strike looks good, but actually it's worse than relying on normal magic weapons and spells, at least if you go by normal WBL. The monk gets ki-strike magic at 4th level, but the spell that bypasses the same DR is 1st level, and grants +1 to hit and damage as well. By 4th level, a +1 weapon is usually available, and as noted is +1 unto the bargain. Weapons of other materials are easily available after 2nd level, so bypassing DR/cold iron or silver at 7th isn't a big advantage; indeed, before long another combat class will be swinging a +3 weapon that bypasses that DR anyway. DR/lawful...what the hell has DR/lawful? Almost nothing. Even the brawler gets a better option than this. DR/adamantine at 16th level is a joke, +4 weapons are easily available before this point, as are actual adamantine weapons. A monk relying on unarmed strike as their main weapon will suffer for it when running into DR. If the monk has any properties on his AoMF, he's never getting past DR/alignment, which many high level enemies have, while most high level combat classes will get through with their +5 weapons.

Awful weapons: Monk weapons are very bad choices, including the unarmed strike. When you crunch the numbers, what matters are static bonuses (the monk gets no extra static bonuses to damage, all other combat classes have these) and threat range/multiplier. The unarmed strike does get increasing damage dice, but that's compensated for by the lack of enhancement (see above), leaving it decidedly second rate. The only mediocre weapon available to a monk is the temple sword. The monk is not even proficient with many "monk" type weapons, but has to burn feats on extra proficiencies to get weapons that...aren't that amazing, really. Oh, and monks of all combat classes do not get access to bows, placing them at a disadvantage dealing with enemies at range. The one redeeming feature of the monk's unarmed strike is that it DOES scale up well if the monk gets enlarged, or a similar buff spell placed on them. However, as monks can't actually use these spells themselves, it's not that much help.

Poorly synergistic abilities: Monk abilities are poorly thought out, and have little or no synergy. Slow fall is not as good as a single 1st level spell. Wholeness of Body is all but useless - why waste a precious resource (ki) on healing yourself when a potion will do better? You can't even use it as a swift action, so it's not a good option in combat. Compare it to Lay on Hands, and there simply is no comparison. Diamond Soul is actually more of a disadvantage than an advantage in many cases; and tongue of the sun and the moon is just a space-filler. Abundant step carries a feat tax to actually be useful. The biggest issue, though, is that the monk's mobility, the one thing he can do thathe can said to be really good at (even if he cannot fly) is completely at odds with his primary attack, flurry of blows - without which he's on 3/4 BAB with no boost to hit again. The qingong is the best monk archetype because it allows the player to swap out abilities, but even it has some glaring omissions.


Oncoming_Storm wrote:
Monks are fun.

About as fun as most other martials. "I full attack!" So tactical and amazing and full of flavor and options!

Oncoming_Storm wrote:
People claim that they're ridiculously MAD, when all they really need is STR, WIS, and CON. Or just WIS if you get a Guided AoMF.

Well... and Dex. Intellect might be useful, 13 at least if you want non bonus feat combat maneuvers. Agile or Guided can help reduce it.

[sarc]Its not that they're MAD, its that they need several stats to be good! I don't know why everyone thinks they're so MAD.[/sarc]

Oncoming_Storm wrote:
If a fighter or Barbarian loses their weapon to a Rust Monster, they're done

Alternative way to see it, the fighter is brought down closer to the monks level in DPR, and the barbarian picks up the club and mostly lost the enhance bonus but still hits harder than the monk. Or they had a backup weapon. or a few... But don't worry, in this situational moment they might be a little better because everyone else sucked! Except you know... they aren't actually better...

Situational things are hard to measure. One of the big things is that your being good in a moment that sucks for everyone else may not actually be a big deal, and doesn't actually make you better n that particular moment.

Oncoming_Storm wrote:
You could also argue that the AoMF is too expensive, which is also fair, but I've always felt the extra cost was to balance the Monk not having to spend that gold on armor.

Monks do spend money on armor. They just spend it on a different kind of armor. TWF is pretty overpriced imo, especially for something with little to no actual reward.

Pardon the snark if you would. Probably overdid it.


Oncoming_Storm wrote:
Monks are fun. People claim that they're ridiculously MAD, when all they really need is STR, WIS, and CON. Or just WIS if you get a Guided AoMF.

A guided AoMF costs 4,000gp, so they have little chance getting hold of one by 4th or 5th level, and the property itself is a 3.5 item, not necessarily available in Pathfinder games (and not at all in PFS). Agile is available, but you need to pay the feat tax for that and are MADer. Oh yes, and without DEX in that list, their AC sucks, making that a necessity as well.

Oncoming_Storm wrote:
You could argue that they need more help than others with overcoming DR, which is fair, but GMW, weapon blanches, etc.. those all work on a monks fists, feet, butt, forehead..whatever you choose to hit with. Which is another individual strength of the monk, they can't be disarmed, sundered, or otherwise stopped from attacking from most conventional means.

Yeah, all those times I have seen sunder and disarm attempts against the party...er...actually, I can only recall one enemy that used sunder, and none at all that used disarm. I'm not saying it's not an advantage, but is it worth giving up DR penetration, good threat range, and good enhancement for? Unarmed strike has the worst threat range and multiplier as well, it's really a 2nd rate weapon in spite of the rising dice of damage.

Oncoming_Storm wrote:
A monk with no arms can flurry of headbutts all day long, still apply enhancements to his headbutts, and gain cool AoMF bonuses no matter what. If a fighter or Barbarian loses their weapon to a Rust Monster, they're done(or at least significantly less powerful for now)

A club costs 1cp. Your {insert combat class here} should always be carrying one for blunt damage and just in case he runs into that rust monster. He switches to the club, kills the rust monster, and carries on. He's more worried about his armour than his weapon, to be honest, and the best option for him is to shoot the rust monster at range. You know range, it's that kind of combat most monks don't have a good option for.

Oncoming_Storm wrote:
You could also argue that the AoMF is too expensive, which is also fair, but I've always felt the extra cost was to balance the Monk not having to spend that gold on armor. Or, (and I know I'm repeating myself) it's extra cost is because of those magical, immune-to-disarm-and-sundering-headbutts I mentioned earlier.

Actually, you ARE spending all that gold on armour enhancements, you are buying bracers of armour which cost as much as magic armour but without the additional armour bonus of, you know, armour (and you especially need it if you skimp on Dex as you imply monks should). The AoMF's limitations combine with the unarmed strikes limitations to basically gimp it badly.


Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.


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Oncoming_Storm wrote:
weapon blanches, etc.. those all work on a monks fists, feet, butt, forehead..

Weapon blanch...!?

Weapon Blanch wrote:
These alchemical powders have a gritty consistency. When poured on a weapon and placed over a hot flame for a full round, they melt and form a temporary coating on the weapon. The blanching gives the weapon the ability to bypass one kind of material-based damage reduction, such as adamantine, cold iron, or silver. The blanching remains effective until the weapon makes a successful attack. Each dose of blanching can coat one weapon or up to 10 pieces of ammunition. Only one kind of weapon blanch can be on a weapon at one time, though a weapon made of one special material (such as adamantine) can have a different material blanch (such as silver), and counts as both materials for the first successful hit.

So, that armless Monk sticks his forehead in a hot fire (fire deals 1d4 points of energy damage) for a full round. Then he gets to headbutt, and after the first hit, the blanch breaks off and he has to spend another full round with his head in the fire.

Weapon Blanchs are only good for ammunition.

[Edit] Oooh, perhaps the Monk can apply multiple blanches to his many methods of unarmed strikes?

So two weapons blanches for his feet.
Two weapon blanches for his shins.
Two weapon blanches for his knees.
Two weapon blanches for his knuckles.
Two weapon blanches for his palms.
Two weapon blanches for his elbows.
One weapon blanch for his forehead.
One weapon blanch for the back of his head.

So 14 weapon blanches to cover all of the places a Monk is likely to make an attack with.

At what point does the Monk become a construct?

Hmm... an Iron Golem with Monk levels.... Hmmm.... Evil GM cackle emerging BWAHAHAHAhahaha...

Um... Cary on.


Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
I think some people just want too much.

"Enough" is not "too much".

Low DPR itself has many causes, and these need to be fixed individually before the problem goes away. Adding damage, for example, would not fix the monk's problem with accuracy, without which high AC targets take no damage and DPR against them is still low.

MAD: The monk has to rely in more high scores than any other class. Like any other combat class they need to rely on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, with one of the first two maxed out as the hitting stat. But they also need a high Wisdom to make up for their lack of armour. Other combat classes don't have this issue, and those that rely on non-physical stats have abilities that mitigate the need for so many physical stats. The monk has the need for more stats and no mitigation.

BAB: The monk is a 3/4 BAB class that has no boost to hit (all other combat classes have something that boosts their attack bonuses, even those that do not have full BAB). Flurry of blows helps some, but not actually that much.

Enhancement: The monk's enhancement is limited to the AoMF, which is capped at a +5 total for enhancement and properties combined, and costs twice a normal weapon enhancement.

Damage Resistance: Ki-strike looks good, but actually it's worse than relying on normal magic weapons and spells, at least if you go by normal WBL. The monk gets ki-strike magic at 4th level, but the spell that bypasses the same DR is 1st level, and grants +1 to hit and damage as well. By 4th level, a +1 weapon is usually available, and as noted is +1 unto the bargain. Weapons of other materials are easily available after 2nd level, so bypassing DR/cold iron or silver at 7th isn't a big advantage; indeed, before long another combat class will be swinging a +3 weapon that bypasses that DR anyway. DR/lawful...what the hell has DR/lawful? Almost nothing. Even the brawler gets a better option than this. DR/adamantine at 16th level is a joke, +4 weapons are easily...

That's basically just complaints about DPR. IMHO monks are MAD but it is a non-issue. A human monks starting stats for a 20 point game can be 17 14 14 10 14 8.

Monks are suppose to be MAD. If you want more synergy that's fine, but MAD-ness is not inherently an issue.


Atarlost wrote:

Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.

You know monks can use bracers of armor?

Instead of light armor, monks have 5+8+wis


Marthkus wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.

You know monks can use bracers of armor?

Instead of light armor, monks have 5+8+wis

A barbarian can get his breastplate enhanced for exactly the same price as a monk spends on bracers of armor.


Marthkus wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.

You know monks can use bracers of armor?

Instead of light armor, monks have 5+8+wis

+5 Mithral fullplate costs 34,000 gp and provides up to a +17 defense bonus (including dex) where as a set of +8 bracers costs 64,000 gp, almost double that of the martial's armor, meaning the armor is available a lot sooner.


Tels wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.

You know monks can use bracers of armor?

Instead of light armor, monks have 5+8+wis

+5 Mithral fullplate costs 34,000 gp and provides up to a +17 defense bonus (including dex) where as a set of +8 bracers costs 64,000 gp, almost double that of the martial's armor, meaning the armor is available a lot sooner.

The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.


Using that math bracers give up to 23 armor (+5 dex, +5 wis, +5 monk, +8 armor)

That's a fair bit higher once inherent bonuses kick in.

FYI Not exactly how I would build a monk anymore, but a decent reference.


Nicos wrote:
The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.

Well... unless he takes a feat. Or uses a mithral breastplate. or uses celestial armor.


MrSin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.
Well... unless he takes a feat. Or uses a mithral breastplate. or uses celestial armor.

You actually still need the feat for mithral heavy armor :P


Marthkus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.
Well... unless he takes a feat. Or uses a mithral breastplate. or uses celestial armor.
You actually still need the feat for mithral heavy armor :P

I know, and none of those were!


MrSin wrote:
Nicos wrote:
The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.
Well... unless he takes a feat. Or uses a mithral breastplate. or uses celestial armor.

The feat seems scrhodinger like seems most build I have seen have no feat to spate, they are too busy geting more extra rage powers.

And withhout context the disccusions are meaningles people. Choose alevel and show the numbers.


Nicos wrote:

The feat seems scrhodinger like seems most build I have seen have no feat to spate, they are too busy geting more extra rage powers.

And withhout context the disccusions are meaningles people. Choose alevel and show the numbers.

SCHRODINGER! GOALPOST! BUILDS!

We need a referee for this someday.


This thread again... Where is the guy with the Dead Horse alias?


Marthkus wrote:
That's basically just complaints about DPR.

No, it's complaints about the causes of low DPR. For example, if you can up accuracy and penetration of DR, for example, some of the monk's other abilities, like their use of Stunning Fist and their maneuvers might have a chance to even up the differences without having to crank up damage too. You can have less DPR, it's that these issues also effect all the aspects of combat that aren't DPR that is the problem.

That's why I constantly maintain that the monk should NOT be fixed just by cranking up damage, as some claim. Damage is the least important aspect to be addressed, it comes down to base accuracy, MAD, DR, and enhancement.

Marthkus wrote:
IMHO monks are MAD but it is a non-issue. A human monks starting stats for a 20 point game can be 17 14 14 10 14 8.

On the flip side, for a ranger you could have: 14 18 12 10 14 8 - great for an archer, and +1 to hit over the monk with better AC from the go-get.

A Paladin: 18 10 10 10 10 16 - he can use lay on hands to replace hit points, so he doesn't need high Con, and in plate armour (which he will get ASAP) dex is a loss anyway. His Divine Grace will add his charisma bonus to all saves regardless. Or he could go for 18 10 14 10 10 14 if he feels a bit more conservative. His AC at first level won't beat the monk, but as soon as he can afford armour he's well ahead.

A fighter: 18 12 14 10 14 8 - just to get that Will save bonus, of course. Again, he may not beat the monk by much AC at level one, but he will by level two, as well as being better on offence.

A barbarian: 18 14 14 10 12 8 - killing machine incoming.

All of these have better offence, decent saves, easily as good AC, and all their other abilities. This is why MAD is a problem, the monk is spread too thin because all these other classes can focus on ONE statistic and make it the be all and end all, and spread what they can around the rest. The monk cannot, his other ability scores are too important.

Marthkus wrote:
Monks are suppose to be MAD. If you want more synergy that's fine, but MAD-ness is not inherently an issue.

Your monk who "doesn't suffer from MAD" is +1 to hit behind the other combat classes at the go-get, hit points behind in many cases, and by 2nd level 2-4 points of AC behind also. They also get their class features that improve their to hit and damage, putting you further behind. Monk gets bonuses to AC, that help him catch up - and this is 100% down to MADness. I'd say that's a problem.


Nicos wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.

You know monks can use bracers of armor?

Instead of light armor, monks have 5+8+wis

+5 Mithral fullplate costs 34,000 gp and provides up to a +17 defense bonus (including dex) where as a set of +8 bracers costs 64,000 gp, almost double that of the martial's armor, meaning the armor is available a lot sooner.
The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.

Barbarians and Rangers are the only two full martials that aren't proficient with heavy armor. You have Barbarians, Cavaliers, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Samurai as full BAB classes. Of those 6, 4 are proficient in heavy armor (3 if you discount the Samurai as an alternate class). Even if you take a +5 Mithral Breastplate, (which ALL of the full BAB martials are proficient with) it still costs less. Also, since Breastplate isn't 'heavy armor' it costs less at 29,000 gp, vs the 64,000 of +8 bracers. For 29,000 gp, a Monk could afford +5 bracer, +1 ring and +1 amulet for a total of +7 AC increase vs the +11 of the Breastplate.


Lemmy wrote:
This thread again... Where is the guy with the Dead Horse alias?

Looking or hiding form the stick I'd imagine.


MrSin wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
This thread again... Where is the guy with the Dead Horse alias?
Looking or hiding form the stick I'd imagine.

He has to be some sort of equine lich by now...


Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
That's basically just complaints about DPR.

No, it's complaints about the causes of low DPR. For example, if you can up accuracy and penetration of DR, for example, some of the monk's other abilities, like their use of Stunning Fist and their maneuvers might have a chance to even up the differences without having to crank up damage too. You can have less DPR, it's that these issues also effect all the aspects of combat that aren't DPR that is the problem.

That's why I constantly maintain that the monk should NOT be fixed just by cranking up damage, as some claim. Damage is the least important aspect to be addressed, it comes down to base accuracy, MAD, DR, and enhancement.

OMG complaining about the causes of lower DPR is the same thing as complaining about DPR.

It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.


Marthkus wrote:
It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.

I'd say they lack ranged combat options too (unless they are Sohei or Zen Archer). Mobility is an issue. They are fast, but not faster than anyone under effect of Haste, and they suffer grievous penalties for daring to move 10ft, more so than any martial class.

Their overall utility is pretty low too. 4 skill points per level is not awful, but not impressive either... They have a decent list of class skills, but that's about it.

They are not skill monkeys, healers, party-faces or support... All they have going for them is DPR and defenses, but their DPR is meh and their defenses don't help the rest of the party to stay alive.

Well, at least a couple archetypes make pretty solid characters.


Marthkus wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
That's basically just complaints about DPR.

No, it's complaints about the causes of low DPR. For example, if you can up accuracy and penetration of DR, for example, some of the monk's other abilities, like their use of Stunning Fist and their maneuvers might have a chance to even up the differences without having to crank up damage too. You can have less DPR, it's that these issues also effect all the aspects of combat that aren't DPR that is the problem.

That's why I constantly maintain that the monk should NOT be fixed just by cranking up damage, as some claim. Damage is the least important aspect to be addressed, it comes down to base accuracy, MAD, DR, and enhancement.

OMG complaining about the causes of lower DPR is the same thing as complaining about DPR.

It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.

Things like MADness affects more than just his DPR, it also affects things like his saves and skills. Since he has lower attributes across the board, he's going to have lower static bonuses compared to the other skill classes.

Keep in mind, the Monk is a hybrid skill/frontline class, akin almost to that of the Ranger, however the Ranger is far better in many cases.

For one thing, the Monk needs Str, Dex, Con, and Wis for attributes to handle attack/damage, AC, HP and class abilities. This means he's going to need to dump his Int and Cha, meaning he has less skill points and less 'social' bonuses.

Since his attributes are spread out across the board, he's going to have an overall less static bonus to his saves from his ability scores. This is mitigated, however, because Monks have all good saves.

So on the role-play side, Monks are going to have less skills and/or smaller bonuses to those skills from his attributes. This limits his out of combat feasibility. If he builds to be a skill monkey, this limits his combat ability because he won't have the stats for combat.

There are some very few exceptions to this, usually involving very generous point-buy, lucky die rolls (4d6) and/or house rules (like mine or Dabblers) that 'fix' the Monk.


I am obligated to put this link in this thread.
Psychic Monk v1.0.3. A monk that works, stays true to the monk themes, and gives wonderful variety in the types and styles of monks that you can create.


Lemmy wrote:
This thread again... Where is the guy with the Dead Horse alias?

It was beaten to death.

The good (or bad new, depending on who you are) is that there is alot of necromatic energies in paizo forum.

Particulary Monks thread are full of Undead horses.


Tels wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Tels wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

Light armor has (outside padded) 8 armor bonus plus max dex, equivalent to a monk with 36 wis+dex or 18s in both.

Medium armor mostly also has 8 total bonus, but breastplate has 9. For some reason nobody who isn't a druid wears medium armors other than breastplates. That's 38 wis+dex, or an 18 and a 20.

The scaling component of the monk armor bonus barely compensates for needing to put an AMF around his neck instead of an ANA. Enhancement on bracers costs as much as enhancement on armor.

Then mister monk needs to deal damage and survive hits.

A barbarian who can wear armor can do with 16 dex 14 con 10 wisdom what a monk needs 20 dex, 18 con, and 18 wisdom to do.

You know monks can use bracers of armor?

Instead of light armor, monks have 5+8+wis

+5 Mithral fullplate costs 34,000 gp and provides up to a +17 defense bonus (including dex) where as a set of +8 bracers costs 64,000 gp, almost double that of the martial's armor, meaning the armor is available a lot sooner.
The barbarian will suffer a penalty to his attacks due to the ACP.
Barbarians and Rangers are the only two full martials that aren't proficient with heavy armor. You have Barbarians, Cavaliers, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Samurai as full BAB classes. Of those 6, 4 are proficient in heavy armor (3 if you discount the Samurai as an alternate class). Even if you take a +5 Mithral Breastplate, (which ALL of the full BAB martials are proficient with) it still costs less. Also, since Breastplate isn't 'heavy armor' it costs less at 29,000 gp, vs the 64,000 of +8 bracers. For 29,000 gp, a Monk could afford +5 bracer, +1 ring and +1 amulet for a total of +7 AC increase vs the +11 of the Breastplate.

I mentioned a barbarian because it was the only class mentioned in the quoted post.


MAD only effects low level monks. Higher level monks gain more from stat boosting items than other classes. You can make quite a good monk with 20 point buy. 15 point buy I quite a bit harder. 20 point buy is nearly perfect allowing you to take four 14s, which makes a very effective monk.


Raith Shadar wrote:
MAD only effects low level monks. Higher level monks gain more from stat boosting items than other classes. You can make quite a good monk with 20 point buy. 15 point buy I quite a bit harder. 20 point buy is nearly perfect allowing you to take four 14s, which makes a very effective monk.

4 14s is not very effective. Your level one AC is at maximum 15 it does not increase until level 4. Your level one to hit on a flurry is at best +2/+2 your damage is at max +4 and your hp is sitting at max at 14. You're several steps down from very effective, hovering at around adequate imo. I'm playing with a 30 point point buy and I feel like I barely have enough to make a monk that keeps up in the early game.

As far as stat bonuses until like level 10+ they don't outstrip the base bonuses a normal class gets for the cost and the game is mostly over by then anyways. Also everyone else gets the same bonuses from stat ups other than Wis except maybe Dex assuming they hit their dex cap don't buy mithral and didn't start at around 12 which they could have.


gnomersy wrote:
Raith Shadar wrote:
MAD only effects low level monks. Higher level monks gain more from stat boosting items than other classes. You can make quite a good monk with 20 point buy. 15 point buy I quite a bit harder. 20 point buy is nearly perfect allowing you to take four 14s, which makes a very effective monk.

4 14s is not very effective. Your level one AC is at maximum 15 it does not increase until level 4. Your level one to hit on a flurry is at best +2/+2 your damage is at max +4 and your hp is sitting at max at 14. You're several steps down from very effective, hovering at around adequate imo. I'm playing with a 30 point point buy and I feel like I barely have enough to make a monk that keeps up in the early game.

As far as stat bonuses until like level 10+ they don't outstrip the base bonuses a normal class gets for the cost and the game is mostly over by then anyways. Also everyone else gets the same bonuses from stat ups other than Wis except maybe Dex assuming they hit their dex cap don't buy mithral and didn't start at around 12 which they could have.

Four 14s is quite effective. 15 AC at first level is acceptable. Monks are not built to be frontline melee. They are more like rogues. If Paizo intends them to be frontline melee, they would have to build them differently.

I find that DMs that don't allow the purchase of custom items to be more damaging to a monk than how the class is built. Monks need custom magic items more than other classes.

A monk should be able to buy a Wondrous Item with an armor bonus whether it be bracers or a different item. You should also be taking martial arts and obtain a Wisdom or Dex boosting item.

The current monk with splatbooks needs only an ability to boost attack rolls on occasion to be on par with other characters. My lvl 12 Hungry Ghost Monk is a vicious beast of a character that is extremely difficult to beat in battle.


Raith Shadar wrote:


Four 14s is quite effective. 15 AC at first level is acceptable. Monks are not built to be frontline melee. They are more like rogues. If Paizo intends them to be frontline melee, they would have to build them differently.

I find that DMs that don't allow the purchase of custom items to be more damaging to a monk than how the class is built. Monks need custom magic items more than other classes.

A monk should be able to buy a Wondrous Item with an armor bonus whether it be bracers or a different item. You should also be taking martial arts and obtain a Wisdom or Dex boosting item.

The current monk with splatbooks needs only an ability to boost attack rolls on occasion to be on par with other characters. My lvl 12 Hungry Ghost Monk is a vicious beast of a character that is extremely difficult to beat in battle.

15 AC at level one is the bare minimum for any frontliner and that 15 includes taking dodge btw. However unlike any other character in the game at level 2 your AC won't spike up to 18-21 because you can afford the best armor in your weight class in fact your AC might go up 1 point by buying Bracers of Armor for the same cost as a suit of fullplate until you hit level 4 and get a whopping +1 AC from your monk abilities.

Also I don't know how you can consider Monks to be anything but frontline melee characters just like Rogues. Except compared to Rogues Monks have less than half the out of combat utility and less ability/incentive to avoid combat.

As for getting custom items yes if your dm just throws custom items at you for 0 cost monks are awesome but if your DM runs his games at or below WBL and doesn't give you free customization of items you're up the creek without a paddle more often than not.


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So a Monk should be allowed to use a system that is typically regarded with fear with how easy it is to 'break the game' by allowing custom items?

Also, Monks are frontline characters. They don't have enough skill points to be a skill monkey (notice how the Rogue has 8 and he still gets beat by Wizards and Bard most of the time). Rogues may not get an accuracy increase (just like Monks) but one of the things they do get is decent damage on a flank. Monks get neither the skills points they need to be a skill monkey, nor the accuracy or damage boosts they need to be really viable in combat.

Now, that's not to say Monks can't do both, as they certainly can. You just needs tons of splat books and the ability to find all the little gems that make it possible.

Hungry Ghost is an archetype that is widely regarded as good for the Monk. In order for your Monk to be 'difficult to beat' you had to go outside of the CRB to do so. If you stick to the CRB, Monks have a really hard time standing out at doing anything someone else couldn't do better, other than running really fast. True story, Barbarians are faster than Monks until 6th level and a Hasted Barbarian is faster than Monks until 15th level.

You compare the Monk to the Rogue, and claim the Designers didn't want the Monk on the frontline? So let compare their 'official' roles.

Core Rule Book: Monk wrote:
Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, b]striking where it's least expected,[/b] and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

Here we have the monk explicitly being called out as a skilled combatant, able to move about the battlefield and strike enemies.

Core Rule Book: Rogue wrote:
Rogues excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different rogues. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.

Here we have the Rogue who is explicitly called out as tending to avoid combat. Instead, it goes on and on about the different skills the Rogue has and what he is capable of doing with said skills.

The problem is that the Monk is supposed to be designed to be a lightly armored skirmish warrior able to dart in and out of battle, attacking foes from multiple angles.

The reality is that Pathfinder has one type of combat. Full. Attack. Action.

Feats like Spring Attack and Vital Strike are designed to be used to aid in mobile and dynamic fights. Problem is they don't work in conjunction with each other. If they did, and if Vital Strike scaled, you'd probably see them on a lot more Monk builds.

So, instead, combat revolves to standing in one square and full-attacking, moving only when you absolutely have to. This applies to all combat classes, not just the Monk. Since Pathfinder punishes people who move in combat (the Monk more than anyone), the Monk too is a front-line combat class.

One of my beefs with the Monk (don't get me wrong, I love playing Monks) is the Ranger. Ranger is a full BAB martial class with free twf and mystical abilities. He also gets 6 skill points a level which is 2 more than the Monk. He also gets a method of bumping his attack and damage (favored enemy) high enough that he is arguably the highest DPR class. Also has an animal companion.

The Ranger is, in many ways, what the Monk should have been. The Monk should have been a full BAB martial class with some limited mystical abilities and a bonus feats with 4/6 skill points per level.

But he's not. He's not and we have to deal with it. Through system mastery, splat books and/or house rules/patches we get to deal with the Monk as is.


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Marthkus wrote:
OMG complaining about the causes of lower DPR is the same thing as complaining about DPR.

No, it's not, because the causes of the monk's low DPR effect MORE than just DPR, so fixing DPR alone would not necessarily fix the monk's problems. Being disingenuous does not advance your argument.

Marthkus wrote:
It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.

I have adequately demonstrated that this is not the case, and the monk has many more issues than you choose to acknowledge. That's your prerogative to hold your own opinion, but I can back mine with facts and figures as well as anecdotes from playing monks.

Raith Shadar wrote:
Four 14s is quite effective. 15 AC at first level is acceptable. Monks are not built to be frontline melee. They are more like rogues. If Paizo intends them to be frontline melee, they would have to build them differently.

Only rogues have 8+int skill ranks a level, monks don't. Rogues have talents and the like that boost their skills and other abilities. So monks a NOT like rogues, even more than they are NOT front liners. In the same way, they are not spell-casters (no spells), and they are not support (no buffs like the bard).

If Paizo intended them to be front liners they would have built them differently.
If Paizo intended them to be skill monkeys they would have built them differently.
If Paizo intended them to be support they would have built them differently.
If Paizo intended them to be spell-casters they would have built them differently.

So basically, by your logic, monks are not meant to be anything.

But here's the thing, there is this section that says what monks are meant to do:
"Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most."

Can they overcome the most daunting perils? Well they have good saves.
Can they strike the enemy where it's least expected? Not easily, not as well even as a rogue can (he can quietly open any locked doors and not set off any traps on the way there).
Can they take advantage of enemy vulnerabilities? He has problems hitting anything at all. He has no real ability to exploit a vulnerability beyond that of any other class.
Can they navigate any battlefield with ease? Better than anyone who cannot fly...which gets pretty common at higher level, actually.
Can they aid allies? Other than being a flanking monkey, no. They don't even get the Heal skill to help stabilise a dying friend.

This is why monks are considered weak. Not because they cannot do the front line role, but because they cannot do the role they are given.

Raith Shadar wrote:

I find that DMs that don't allow the purchase of custom items to be more damaging to a monk than how the class is built. Monks need custom magic items more than other classes.

A monk should be able to buy a Wondrous Item with an armor bonus whether it be bracers or a different item. You should also be taking martial arts and obtain a Wisdom or Dex boosting item.

Indeed, the only monks I have seen that perform well are those that have some crazy cherry-picked items. But welcome to the real game, that doesn't happen most of the time. You can only rely on the common items, and maybe an AoMF if you are lucky. The monk certainly cannot make his own items without an investment of feats and skills that gimps him for anything else.

Raith Shadar wrote:
The current monk with splatbooks needs only an ability to boost attack rolls on occasion to be on par with other characters. My lvl 12 Hungry Ghost Monk is a vicious beast of a character that is extremely difficult to beat in battle.

Indeed, I have highlighted accuracy again and again as the monk's biggest single problem, but it's a problem with multiple causes that need to be addressed. And it's not the monk's only problem, just his most obvious one.


Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.
I have adequately demonstrated that this is not the case, and the monk has many more issues than you choose to acknowledge. That's your prerogative to hold your own opinion, but I can back mine with facts and figures as well as anecdotes from playing monks.

You have only highlighted DPR problems.

Monks essential DPR problems
1. Lower to-hit
2. Extremely bad move & attack
3. Lack of viable long range tactics

Issues that contribute to the above but are not in of themselves problems
1. Monks are MAD
2. Monks are a 3/4 BAB class who is expected to be the party BSF, which they can't really do until higher levels (at which point Monk > fighter and ranger, being basically immune to CC makes for effectively higher DPR)
3. For some reason monks are proficient in crossbows instead of bows, and are not just proficient in monk weapons

Other Monk problems
1. How SR works

Things that appear to be problems with the class, but aren't because they don't hurt the class in anyway.
1. Esoteric or weak class features. These are purely additive and do not somehow make the class weaker. For example Slow fall does not make a monk weaker.


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Marthkus wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.
I have adequately demonstrated that this is not the case, and the monk has many more issues than you choose to acknowledge. That's your prerogative to hold your own opinion, but I can back mine with facts and figures as well as anecdotes from playing monks.

You have only highlighted DPR problems.

Monks essential DPR problems
1. Lower to-hit

Everything that applies to low to-hit also applies to CMB, making monks weaker at maneuvers as well as just hitting things. It contributes to the lack of usefulness of Stunning Fist as well. It is not just a DPR problem

Marthkus wrote:

2. Extremely bad move & attack

3. Lack of viable long range tactics

I agree, these are also issues, but lesser issues.

Marthkus wrote:

Issues that contribute to the above but are not in of themselves problems

1. Monks are MAD
2. Monks are a 3/4 BAB class who is expected to be the party BSF, which they can't really do until higher levels (at which point Monk > fighter and ranger, being basically immune to CC makes for effectively higher DPR)
3. For some reason monks are proficient in crossbows instead of bows, and are not just proficient in monk weapons

These contribute to the monk's problems, yes, and insomuch I consider them part of the monk's problems. Unless you fix MAD, just giving the monk a bonus in hitting will not fully resolve his accuracy problems, for example.

Marthkus wrote:

Other Monk problems

1. How SR works

Things that appear to be problems with the class, but aren't because they don't hurt the class in anyway.
1. Esoteric or weak class features. These are purely additive and do not somehow make the class weaker. For example Slow fall does not make a monk weaker.

To be honest, I think these ARE issues, because they detract from the class compared to other classes. However, the Qingong fixes them fairly effectively so I do nbot regard them as a priority to fix.


No-one does CMB well at higher levels. Monks get maneuver training anyways, so they basically have full BAB for maneuvers.

If maneuvers actually scaled well into high levels this would allow the monk to have a pretty good move and attack option.

Now if you removed the minus two to-hit from the monk flurry and gave them bow proficiency. That would eliminate most of their "problems"

MAD is a non-issue. Every monk I build is 1 point behind in strength compared to a barbar or fighter. Monks do-not need to be hitting with the same force and accuracy of a fighter, but a +5-9 difference is a little ridiculous.


Marthkus wrote:

Issues that contribute to the above but are not in of themselves problems

1. Monks are MAD
2. Monks are a 3/4 BAB class who is expected to be the party BSF, which they can't really do until higher levels (at which point Monk > fighter and ranger, being basically immune to CC makes for effectively higher DPR)
3. For some reason monks are proficient in crossbows instead of bows, and are not just proficient in monk weapons

Other Monk problems
1. How SR works

Things that appear to be problems with the class, but aren't because they don't hurt the class in anyway.
1. Esoteric or weak class features. These are purely additive and do not somehow make the class weaker. For example Slow fall does not make a monk weaker.

1) MAD is a problem and contributes to more than DPR issues. If you are a MAD, you have lower over-all bonuses to not just attack and damage, but to AC, saves, and skills, even feat pre-reqs. There are, essentially, 3 categories in Pathfinder, offense, defense, skills. MAD contributes to lower bonuses in all 3 categories, so yes, MAD is a problem.

2) I'm not sure what Monks and/or what Fighters/Rangers you've been played or played with, but there is no case in which Monks > Fighters/Rangers in DPR. They are not 'immune to crowd control' anymore than the other two are.

If you're referring to Monks having a high CMD, so too do the other classes. A Monk gets 3 ability score to CMD, this is true, however, he also has lower bonuses in all three ability scores. To be fair, I'll use the Heroic stat array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 but only pay attention to the first three. Lets say your BSF (could be a fighter, a ranger, barbarian whatever) puts his 15 and 14 into dex and strength, and has a racial into Strength. He's 10th level, and lets just say he found himself a +4/+4 str/dex belt. Level 4 and 8 points went into Strength, so he's go himself a 23 strength and an 18 dex. Not bad.

The Monk has 15 Strength, 14, Dex, 13 Wisdom. Could be 15 dex, 14 Wisdom, 13 Strength, I don't care, doesn't really matter. His racial could be in any of the three, but we're going to drop it into his 15 (which will be his combat stat). He too is 10th level, and he too found a +4/+4 belt, or even a +4 belt and +4 headband. Level 4 and 8 points went into Strength and Wisdom respectively (using the first stats). This puts him at 22 Strength, 18 Dex, 14 Wisdom (using the +4/+4 belt).

So the fighter is getting a total of +10 to his CMD from ability scores, the Monk is get +12. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!!!

The Martial has BAB 10, the Monk has BAB 7, the the fighter has a standing CMD of 30, while the Monk has 29. Oh, at this point the Monk also has a +2 Monk AC bonus, so his CMD is 31.

I'm disregarding feats here, because they only apply vs specific Maneuvers, with the exception of Defensive Combat Training. Feats are also something nearly any class can take. Even with DCT, the CMD is only 4 points higher. Hardly CC immunity.

Now sure, the Monk might also have a +4 headband, or a Monk's Robe, but then this becomes a Monk who is defensively focused, which means he has little offensive capability. Where the Monk might be able to survive 5 or 6 rounds of combat by not being hit, he's also not killing anything either.

Martials, of any level, should be able to kill their opponent in 1-3 rounds of full attacks. If they are not doing this, you have a poorly built martial, or an OP enemy (possibly as a result of the defensively focused Monk).

Cheapy did some awesome work in this thread that shows the DPR of a non-optimized fighter. He also has this thread which is the DPR of an optimized fighter. Both are Core Rulebook Only, so they aren't including things like Gloves of Dueling or any other DPR item from the splat books.

It's worth noting the non-optimized, Sword and Board fighter (amongst the worst weapon combos) takes about 4 rounds to drop enemies up until level 11 when he gets another attack and can start dropping enemies in 2 rounds or 3 rounds. This is the bare minimum and he's pushing the limit of 'poorly built' as a frontline martial.

Conversely, the optimized fighter has enemies dropping in 2 rounds, and at 11th and higher, he's almost dropping them in a single round.

Optimization, generous ability scores, cherry picked items, even house rules and fixes, these don't 'break' the Monk or put him into the king of DPR ranges (for the most part, some house rules/fixes are just inherently broken). What they do, however, is allow the Monk to meet the baseline of what's acceptable.

Now, house rules, optimized Monk with generous ability scores and cherry picked items could deal some serious damage, and could give some characters a run for their money, but it's still unlikely to be the king of damage in any situation.


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15 strength monk? You jest

20 point build human is 17str 14dex 14 con 10int 14wis 8cha

You are also ignoring the fighter's and ranger's s!~+ saves. They can be CC'd whenever the GM feels like it.


Marthkus wrote:

15 strength monk? You jest

20 point build human is 17str 14dex 14 con 10int 14wis 8cha

He was using the Heroic array and he stated that 15 was pre racial bonuses.


gnomersy wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

15 strength monk? You jest

20 point build human is 17str 14dex 14 con 10int 14wis 8cha

He was using the Heroic array and he stated that 15 was pre racial bonuses.

Since when have I said you can play a monk with a heroic array or even a 15 point buy?


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Marthkus wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

15 strength monk? You jest

20 point build human is 17str 14dex 14 con 10int 14wis 8cha

He was using the Heroic array and he stated that 15 was pre racial bonuses.
Since when have I said you can play a monk with a heroic array or even a 15 point buy?

Since you said the monk was fine and only had a dpr problem. If the monk was fine he wouldn't need a generous alteration in the base rules of the game in order to function.


gnomersy wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

15 strength monk? You jest

20 point build human is 17str 14dex 14 con 10int 14wis 8cha

He was using the Heroic array and he stated that 15 was pre racial bonuses.
Since when have I said you can play a monk with a heroic array or even a 15 point buy?
Since you said the monk was fine and only had a dpr problem. If the monk was fine he wouldn't need a generous alteration in the base rules of the game in order to function.

Whatever.

Somehow a PFS 20 point buy is a generous alteration in the base rules of the game.


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Marthkus wrote:

Whatever.

Somehow a PFS 20 point buy is a generous alteration in the base rules of the game.

News flash not everyone plays 20 pb not everyone plays PFS and many APs are designed around a 15 point pb and on top of that they don't even excel at 20pb they just don't immediately radiate "I'm a useless class and you should feel bad for picking me," at that point.

But that's okay you already pretty much admitted that the Monk can't function under the same circumstances that all the other classes can function under which pretty much means they have more problems than DPR thank you for agreeing with me.

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