Can a shield qualify for weapon focus?

[Rycross]

Just wondering if my two-weapon shielded fighter (from APG) could apply the feat weapon focus, and all the goodies that spring from that tree, to his shield as used in a shield bash attack, and would that require any prerequisites other than what weapon focus would normally have. I ask because weapon focus states that you can take it for unarmed strike, but you would still need imp. unarmed strike to avoid AoO. I'm wondering if a shield bash would work the same way, but Weapon focus doesn't expressly state that you can, so what's the consensus Pathfinders?

[Nicos]

Yes, you can take WF(shield). Shield are counted in the weapon list too.

[blackbloodtroll]

A shield is a weapon.

It can be enchanted as a weapon.

It works with any feat that specifies a weapon, like weapon focus.

You can two hand a heavy shield for extra damage.

The shield is in a Fighter weapon group.

A shield is absolutely a weapon, and counts as such for all feats and abilities.

A shield is a weapon.

[Samasboy1]

Could you go over that again, BBT, I don't think you were clear enough?

;)

[blackbloodtroll]

You can also attack with a shield as a primary attack, or with a shield alone.

You can use a shield to perform a disarm, trip, or sunder as well.

Anything you can do with a weapon, you can do with a shield.

This is because a shield is a weapon.

[Bruunwald]

You can use a shield as a primary attack.
You can hit with a shield and block when they hit back.
You can wield a shield on a plane.
You can wield a shield on a train.

You can wield a shield as a weapon, Ma'am.
You can wield a shield for sure, Sam-I-Am.

[Bizbag]

Bruunwald wrote:

You can use a shield as a primary attack.

You can hit with a shield and block when they hit back.
You can wield a shield on a plane.
You can wield a shield on a train.

You can wield a shield as a weapon, Ma'am.
You can wield a shield for sure, Sam-I-Am.

But I do not like when orcs shield slam!

I do not like it, Sam-I-Am!

[Lord_Malkov]

Oh... but can you dual wield shields and take no penalties with the Shield Master feat?

[Aelryinth]

With these shields you can also spike,
pointy bits in their hood,
you can poke them really good,
stick them like you should,
+5 Uber shields we really like.

[Bizbag]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Oh... but can you dual wield shields and take no penalties with the Shield Master feat?

I don't see anything that says you can't. You'd only get the better of the two shield bonuses, of course.

[Lord_Malkov]

Bizbag wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Oh... but can you dual wield shields and take no penalties with the Shield Master feat?

I don't see anything that says you can't. You'd only get the better of the two shield bonuses, of course.

Really? I can't imagine I would allow it TBH... otherwise you are getting +2 hit and dmg from each shield bonus and no TWF penalties.... seems way too OP.

But it is an interesting sort of scenario that I can't find any conflict with in the RAW.

[Bizbag]

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Bizbag wrote:

Lord_Malkov wrote:

Oh... but can you dual wield shields and take no penalties with the Shield Master feat?

I don't see anything that says you can't. You'd only get the better of the two shield bonuses, of course.

Really? I can't imagine I would allow it TBH... otherwise you are getting +2 hit and dmg from each shield bonus and no TWF penalties.... seems way too OP.

But it is an interesting sort of scenario that I can't find any conflict with in the RAW.

Shield Master doesn't give you the shield's Shield bonus to your attacks and damage, just its magical Enhancement bonus (so if it's a +2 shield, you get +4 AC and +2 to attacks and damage). At best, spiked shields are at best a d6/x2 weapon. Plus, while Shield Master lets you use the defensive enhancement bonus on attacks and damage, you still have to enchant the spiked shield as a weapon to get any other goodies like Flaming or whatever, which carries a premium cost for double-enchanting.

[Lord_Malkov]

but i thought this was the word

I am going to try and clarify this in a future errata. The intent here was to add the shields base bonus as an enhancement bonus (that is, +1 for light shields, +2 for heavy). Shield Focus does NOT increase the value.
-Jason Bulmahn

Only adding the enhancement bonus would be really weird. I don't know where you got that from. The feat says that you add your shield bonus to attack/dmg... the clarification provided was so you couldn't use the shield's (defensive) enhancement bonus

[Bizbag]

Are we talking about the same thing? The text I'm reading says:

Quote:

You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.

Which says "enhancement", not "shield". I read that as basically saying "your +3 shield is also a +3 weapon thanks to this feat." It isn't actually a +3 weapon, so you'd have to actually pay the gold and get it enchanted if you want other abilities like Flaming, but this feat means you never have to but more than +1. You can have a +5 shield of +1 Flaming Holy Shield Spikes, and you'd bash at +5.

[Matthew Downie]

Here's an older thread about dual-shield wielding.

[Starglim]

Rycross wrote:

Just wondering if my two-weapon shielded fighter (from APG) could apply the feat weapon focus, and all the goodies that spring from that tree, to his shield as used in a shield bash attack, and would that require any prerequisites other than what weapon focus would normally have.

You must be proficient in using your chosen shield as a weapon to meet the prerequisites for Weapon Focus. It's a martial weapon. A shielded fighter should be fine - some other classes might have to consider their path. Otherwise, as others have said, it's working as intended.

[Majuba]

To be clear: Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield) or Weapon Focus (Light Shield), not Weapon Focus (Shield).

[Aelryinth]

ANd remember the Bashing Enhancement, please!

A spiked Bashing shield is either a d8 20/x2 weapon or a 2-12 20/x2 weapon...arguably the best one handed weapon you can get.

'Uber Shield' is a +5 Bashing Spiked Heavy Shield, +5 Defender. +12 to AC on demand, and with Shield Master, still a +5 th/dmg on the attack!

==Aelryinth

[Bizbag]

And at the end of the day, a second shield nets you +2 to attack with that hand at the cost of -2 "stat steps" for a martial weapon of its size (compared to, say, a longsword with a d8 die and 19 Crit, or a scimitar with +2 Crit range). It gets you small benefit defensively; even if they have separate enchantments (like Fire Resist on one and Light Fort on the other) I'm not sure you can benefit defensively from more than one shield.

Which might not really be worth it considering the martial weapon proficiency required - most martial-weapon classes are full BAB. It might benefit a Fighter, but he might still be better off picking another weapon in the same weapon group. It does offer more synergy with you Slam feats, though; provokan' AOOs all day erry day.

Though this might help out a MAD class like a Paladin to take it easier on their hit skills and stats.

[Bizbag]

Quote:

A spiked Bashing shield is either a d8 20/x2 weapon or a 2-12 20/x2 weapon...arguably the best one handed weapon you can get.

I'll check the FAQ later to see if they ever actually updated it, but there was a non-official post that said the combo wasn't quite the intent, since it's a defensive +1 ability that adds 1d6 base damage, which is a lot better than weapon enhancements that add 1d6 elemental. It might not end up being OP, though; since by definition you pay at least 4000 for the defensive enchant, plus a (50%?) premium for the weapon enchants. You might still come out ahead, but it'd be close.

For the moment though, it's legal and very good. Actually this is better than pretty much any other one-handed weapon that doesn't specialize in a feature like reach or trip or Crit procs.

[Aelryinth]

First, it doesn't add a d6. It upgrades to the next size.

Shield + spikes + bashing = 2 size increases for damage. So there's TWO things going on, not one.

Secondly, enchanting something as weapon and armor does not increase the price by 50%. That rule is for items stacked all into one thing, i.e. into one ring, into one wondrous item, using the rules for that type of item. Here, you're enchanting it as weapon and as armor...there's no surcharge because they don't overlap.

The combined cost of a maxed out Uber Shield is 108,000 gp, for a +6 Shield and +6 weapon combined.

If you max it out completely, it's a 300k magic item for a +10 shield and +10 Weapon. Yes, it's the most valuable item you can make under the core rules. And that's before you get into additional +Cost enhancements or intelligence.

The problem with shields as weapons is, of course, that they have no synergy with any other weapon. Quite annoying, really. And, naturally enough, a shield +TWF build is incredibly feat intensive, probably the most so in the whole game.

==Aelryinth

[Bizbag]

Aelryinth wrote:

First, it doesn't add a d6. It upgrades to the next size.

Shield + spikes + bashing = 2 size increases for damage. So there's TWO things going on, not one.

Bashing increases the size by two; so a Bashing heavy spiked shield increases from 1d6 to 2d6.

Quote:

Secondly, enchanting something as weapon and armor does not increase the price by 50%. That rule is for items stacked all into one thing, i.e. into one ring, into one wondrous item, using the rules for that type of item. Here, you're enchanting it as weapon and as armor...there's no surcharge because they don't overlap.

The fact that they don't overlap is why you pay the surcharge: you get the benefit of two items in one item slot. A ring of Feather Falling and Protection +1 doesn't overlap; that's why you pay a premium.

Shield spikes are not a separate item. A heavy spiked shield is one item. If you enchant it as a shield and also as a weapon, it qualifies under "Multiple Different Abilities" in the Creating Magic Items section, and you must pay 50% more for the additional powers (whichever came second).

[Snowleopard]

Bizbag wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

First, it doesn't add a d6. It upgrades to the next size.

Shield + spikes + bashing = 2 size increases for damage. So there's TWO things going on, not one.

Bashing increases the size by two; so a Bashing heavy spiked shield increases from 1d6 to 2d6.

Quote:

Secondly, enchanting something as weapon and armor does not increase the price by 50%. That rule is for items stacked all into one thing, i.e. into one ring, into one wondrous item, using the rules for that type of item. Here, you're enchanting it as weapon and as armor...there's no surcharge because they don't overlap.

The fact that they don't overlap is why you pay the surcharge: you get the benefit of two items in one item slot. A ring of Feather Falling and Protection +1 doesn't overlap; that's why you pay a premium.

Shield spikes are not a separate item. A heavy spiked shield is one item. If you enchant it as a shield and also as a weapon, it qualifies under "Multiple Different Abilities" in the Creating Magic Items section, and you must pay 50% more for the additional powers (whichever came second).

I completely agree with your statement except for the last line.

I thought that the combining enchantments in an item lets you pay a fine of +50% for the the cheapest enchantment, as you add the second enchantment and that you pay for it as you add the second enchantment to the first in the item. So I think the order of enchanting actually does not matter. But I will check the PRD right now, because I could be wrong.

Edit: I checked the PRD and on page 549 you seem to be right Bizbag, but on page 550 in the table I seem to be right. ????? so we obviously need some clarification from Paizo on the intent of this rule.

[Aelryinth]

It's been used multiple times that enchanting a shield as a weapon and a shield are two different things which do not generate a surcharge.

Enchanting a Ring as a Ring of x and a Ring of Y generates a surcharge, because they overlap.

Also note that a Shield IS a weapon and armor, and there's no rules anywhere for applying surcharges to weapons and armor. The costs already increase as you ladle them on!

And kindly note that a bashing spiked light shield goes from d3 to d8, or d4 + bashing to d8. It doesn't add a d6...it increases the effective size twice. If it's not spiked, you get a heavy for d8 and light for d6.

==Aelryinth

[blackbloodtroll]

Indeed.

You can enchant a shield as a weapon, or as armor, and neither effects the price of the other.

[Martiln]

Aelryinth wrote:

It's been used multiple times that enchanting a shield as a weapon and a shield are two different things which do not generate a surcharge.

Enchanting a Ring as a Ring of x and a Ring of Y generates a surcharge, because they overlap.

Also note that a Shield IS a weapon and armor, and there's no rules anywhere for applying surcharges to weapons and armor. The costs already increase as you ladle them on!

And kindly note that a bashing spiked light shield goes from d3 to d8, or d4 + bashing to d8. It doesn't add a d6...it increases the effective size twice. If it's not spiked, you get a heavy for d8 and light for d6.

==Aelryinth

A spiked heavy shield does 1d6 damage. Add bashing onto that(which increases the damage die by 2 steps)and it becomes 2d6(1d6->1d8->2d6)

[Bizbag]

Aelryinth wrote:

And kindly note that a bashing spiked light shield goes from d3 to d8, or d4 + bashing to d8. It doesn't add a d6...it increases the effective size twice. If it's not spiked, you get a heavy for d8 and light for d6.

The point is getting lost in the specifics of the numbers. The point is, an increase to the base damage of a weapon is much better than elemental damage, and it's a defensive enchantment, so it's cheaper. In either case, the base damage is roughly doubled (d4 to d8 on a light spiked, d6 to 2d6 on a heavy spiked).

Aelryinth wrote:

It's been used multiple times that enchanting a shield as a weapon and a shield are two different things which do not generate a surcharge.

Enchanting a Ring as a Ring of x and a Ring of Y generates a surcharge, because they overlap.

Also note that a Shield IS a weapon and armor, and there's no rules anywhere for applying surcharges to weapons and armor. The costs already increase as you ladle them on!

I'm willing to believe you that there is no premium cost, but I'm not sure you have proof of that.. the text under "Creating Magic Items" in the CRB reads the following, before breaking into sections:

Quote:

Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

The shield takes up a space on the character's body, and it has two powers (armor enhancements, weapon enhancements). Why would this be considered an exception? Especially since, as we know, a shield IS a weapon, as in, it's one and the same, not "two items in one".

[blackbloodtroll]

Look at established magic shields. This +50% is not apparent.