How long does it take a sorcerer to cast a metamagic spell?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

I really hope that I can cast a metamagic spell the round I start casting it but it seems like that is not the case.

What is a 1-round casting time? (that is mentioned in this text I guess is my question.)

Thanks

Metamagic:
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

Grand Lodge

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It takes you a full round to cast a metamagic spell that's not Quickened (unless the spell normally takes longer than a standard action to cast), so it takes your full turn (minus swift and free actions), but it goes off the same turn you cast it.

A one-round casting time takes your whole turn AND the rest of the round, only finishing when it becomes your turn again.


Jeff is correct. Spontaneous casters's spells become a full-round action, which still go off the same turn they are cast, but you can't move and cast in the same turn.

If you want to specialize in a single spell, you can look into the feat Spontaneous Metafocus to ignore this restriction.

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Jeff Merola wrote:
It takes you a full round to cast a metamagic spell that's not Quickened (unless the spell normally takes longer than a standard action to cast), so it takes your full turn (minus swift and free actions), but it goes off the same turn you cast it.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think referring to a full-round action as "taking a full round" is (at least partially) the source of confusion/errors on this topic. "Takes a full round" really makes it sound like it takes the entire combat round before it's finished. (I think the rules might also use that phrasing to mean exactly that, but I don't have an example on hand; I might look that up later.)

Though it may seem picky, probably best to make sure to say "full-round action" when talking about that action type.

EDIT:

Magic chapter, Concentration, Injury wrote:
The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

Bolding mine. "One full round" means it takes until just before your next turn (and in the case of spellcasting, also requires a full-round action on the turn you start casting).

Also:
Combat chapter, The Combat Round wrote:
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round.

Don't you just love this game's legacy of different things with similar names? Can't imagine how the difference between "full round" and "full-round action" could cause confusion, right? ;)


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To counter, Jiggy, a "full round" is not the same as a "1 round" casting time.

Shadow Lodge

A 5' step and casting the spell (plus a swift or free action) are the only things you can do on your turn for any metamagic spontaneous spell which isn't being quickened. The spell still goes off on your initiative.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

So, a "1 round" casting time (for, let's say, Summon Monster I) finishes at the beginning of your next turn, and the summoned creature doesn't appear until then.

But an empowered fireball (with a "full round action") casting time takes from the beginning to the end of your turn, and fires off before the next person acts.

Right?

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Kyle Baird wrote:
To counter, Jiggy, a "full round" is not the same as a "1 round" casting time.

The quote from the Magic chapter (in my edit, above) suggests that a casting time of "1 round" and "1 full round" are the same thing.

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The Morphling wrote:

So, a "1 round" casting time (for, let's say, Summon Monster I) finishes at the beginning of your next turn, and the summoned creature doesn't appear until then.

But an empowered fireball (with a "full round action") casting time takes from the beginning to the end of your turn, and fires off before the next person acts.

Right?

Correct.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

Man, they really hate the idea of a non-Summoner summoning anything, don't they? I hadn't realized that 1 round casting times had that much of a delay... eliminates any lingering desire I had to play an Abyssal Bloodline summoning-focused sorcerer. Ugh.

Shadow Lodge

I was initially confused about this as well

but keep in mind ... when it comes to a summoner there is another way to cast 1 round cast time spells

there is an action called "Begin Full round casting" which is a Standard action ... then you expend another standard action on the following Round to complete the spell


Before the Summoner class came along, this was the case for ALL conjurers. This is nothing new. The Summoner class just made it easier for people that wanted to do so (hence it's name, who knew!).

But, there are other ways around it for "traditional" conjurers, such as with Quicken Spell (what my bloatmage does) and feats like Acadamae Graduate:

Quote:

Source Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide pg. 11

You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.

Prerequisites: Specialist wizard 1st; cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school.

Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.


There's also Sacred Summons for the clerics.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
CRobledo wrote:

Before the Summoner class came along, this was the case for ALL conjurers. This is nothing new. The Summoner class just made it easier for people that wanted to do so (hence it's name, who knew!).

But, there are other ways around it for "traditional" conjurers, such as with Quicken Spell (what my bloatmage does) and feats like Acadamae Graduate:

Quote:

Source Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide pg. 11

You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.

Prerequisites: Specialist wizard 1st; cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school.

Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.

Oooh. That's a cool feat.

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Wraith235 wrote:

I was initially confused about this as well

but keep in mind ... when it comes to a summoner there is another way to cast 1 round cast time spells

there is an action called "Begin Full round casting" which is a Standard action ... then you expend another standard action on the following Round to complete the spell

Not to complete the spell, but to complete the full-round action.

Look:

CRB, Combat chapter, Start/Complete Full-Round Action wrote:
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.

It's only a full-round action that you can split up into a pair of standard actions. A summoning spell (or any other that takes 1 round) starts with a full-round action and then keeps going AFTER that action.

So you could certainly use this option to split up the full-round action that starts the casting of a summon spell, but once you've spent your second standard action, all you've completed is the full-round action, which does NOT complete the casting of a summon spell; it begins the casting of a summon spell.

Dark Archive

IS that feat Acadamae Grad legal for PFS?


Metamagic Rules wrote:
If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)

If a spell's normal description says "1 round" or "1 full round", they mean the same thing: the Sorcerer is casting until the beginning of his next turn.

For a Metamagic spell modifying a "1 standard action"
Spell, it's a regular Full Round Action- the Sorcerer may take a 5' step, but the spell completes immediately.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Morphling wrote:
Man, they really hate the idea of a non-Summoner summoning anything, don't they? I hadn't realized that 1 round casting times had that much of a delay... eliminates any lingering desire I had to play an Abyssal Bloodline summoning-focused sorcerer. Ugh.

Before there was such a thing as a Summoner, that was a limit that every Cleric, Wizard, Druid, and Sorcerer had to live with, and with very few exceptions still do. The Summmoner's standard action SLA's hardly represent the "norm".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You can't quicken a full round spell.

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LazarX wrote:
You can't quicken a full round spell.

But you can quicken a full-round action spell. :D


Bizbag wrote:
Metamagic Rules wrote:
If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)

If a spell's normal description says "1 round" or "1 full round", they mean the same thing: the Sorcerer is casting until the beginning of his next turn.

(…)

I don’t really agree, because I think the 1 full round refer to a full round action; but I never saw any spell with “1 full round” as its casting time.


勝20100 wrote:
I don’t really agree, because I think the 1 full round refer to a full round action; but I never saw any spell with “1 full round” as its casting time.

Fair enough; the point is, in a spell's description, "1 round" means from when the sorcerer starts casting until his next action. (I think PRG may have cleaned it up; 3.5 might have had a few spells that said "1 full round").

In the Metamagic rules, it specifically calls the Metamagic Full-Round Action as not being the same as the "1 round" casting time. So if a Sorcerer casts a Maximized Fireball, it goes off immediately. If he casts Extended Summon Monster IV, he spends his turn casting the spell, and it goes off after his second action is expended (but not right before his third turn).

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勝20100 wrote:
I think the 1 full round refer to a full round action;
Combat chapter, The Combat Round wrote:
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round.


Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
IS that feat Acadamae Grad legal for PFS?

Yes...provided you have the Curse of the Crimson Throne player's guide.

And you can quicken a 1 round casting time spell...

PRD wrote:

Quicken Spell (Metamagic)

You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.

Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.

A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.

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That line is actually kind of weird... what you can't quicken is something with a casting time of:
1) 1 round
or
2) 1 full-round action

A casting time of 1 round is longer than 1 full-round action, and therefore can't be quickened. So why even mention "1 round" as one of the things the casting time can't be longer than?


Jiggy wrote:

That line is actually kind of weird... what you can't quicken is something with a casting time of:

1) 1 round
or
2) 1 full-round action

A casting time of 1 round is longer than 1 full-round action, and therefore can't be quickened. So why even mention "1 round" as one of the things the casting time can't be longer than?

I agree, they're two different length of times, and they should have left out #2. But they do call out both lengths as being eligible in the feat.

That being said, they've also used quickened 1 round spells in in print and scenarios, so even with the odd language the intent appears that quickened summons spells are legitimate.


I think it's because in 3.5, some spells were full round actions to cast, and others were 1 round actions. There aren't anymore, they're just 1 round, but the language stayed.


Bizbag wrote:
I think it's because in 3.5, some spells were full round actions to cast, and others were 1 round actions. There aren't anymore, they're just 1 round, but the language stayed.

Well, spontaneous casters using most metamagics are full round actions to cast still. The language is wonky, but intent really does imply both are eligible for quickening as they're both even called out in the feat.

Of course, the special note does mean that spontaneous casters couldn't quicken a summoning spell...interesting.


As Sniggevert points out, there are are many examples I have seen in print (PFS scenarios, NPC codex) that have NPC statblocks with quickened summon monster spells. It works. Just not on anything longer than that (can't quicken lesser restoration, for example)


Yes, you can quicken both "1 round" and "1 full round" spells.

Spoiler:
Quicken Spell: Can you use Quicken Spell on a spell with a casting time of "1 round" (such as enlarge person)? Can you use it on a spell with a casting time of "1 full round" (such as a spontaneous caster using a metamagic feat on a spell)?

Yes and yes. Neither type has a longer casting time than the "longer than 1 full-round action" limitation of Quicken Spell, therefore both can be quickened.
This means that a sorcerer could cast an empowered quickened magic missile as a swift action. Likewise, as multiple metamagic feats don't push the casting time longer than 1 full-round action, a sorcerer could cast an empowered silent stilled quickened magic missile as a swift action.

—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11

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