Non-Int Witch


Homebrew and House Rules


Does anyone else think that the Witch being an Int-based prepared caster seems off?

Witches "gain power through communion with the unknown," and "from a pact made with an otherworldly power."

This to me sounds a lot like a cleric or oracle, acting as the instrument through which a greater being can exert power.

So I think the Witch would make more sense as a Wis or Cha based caster. Wisdom is "force of will" and could reflect the need for a witch to resist the manipulations of their patron. Charisma is "force of personality" and could reflect the ability to bargain with your patron for powers.

But either one makes more sense to me than Intelligence, since witches don't receive their magic from academic study of magical theorems like a Wizard.

I don't have as much of a problem with the prepared casting, but I do think spontaneous casting would fit better too. Maybe that is just my personal preference, since Clerics are prepared and Oracles (Favored Souls from 3.5) are spontaneous, it could go either way.

In fact, thinking about it, the Witch seems like an Alternative Class (like Samurai or Ninja) that is currently based on a Wizard losing school abilities for Hexes, but might make more sense as a Sorcerer losing Bloodline for Hexes.


They don't have any internal power. Their abilities come purely from learning (ana INT). They may not come from academic study, but they do come from learning.

On the upside, you can pick any spellcasting class that suits your fancy and call yourself a witch ICly if you want.


I switched witches to wisdom myself, never looked back.
as far as "learning" goes, by that logic all spellcasters save the cleric and paladin should be int based, spellcasting is determined by source not method.
outside source providing power, wis
learned power through study, int
power achieved through natural talent, chr
while there are exceptions (two of which are archetypes for sorcerer), I don't think the witch necessarily does enough to justify int. this, imo, is do to the holdover from the old concept that prepared arcane needs to be int based.


Zhayne wrote:

They don't have any internal power. Their abilities come purely from learning (ana INT). They may not come from academic study, but they do come from learning.

On the upside, you can pick any spellcasting class that suits your fancy and call yourself a witch ICly if you want.

I think the Scarred Witch Doctor might want to have a word with you... ;)

Seriously though, I think the Wis (Or Con) is a great flavor for witches, I'm also working on a Cha-based Witch myself (there are probably many out there already). I do see the "learning" aspect, but can also get behind the innate (Wis OR Con); the patron-gifted; the personality based (Cha); or lots of other styles.


Zhayne wrote:

They don't have any internal power. Their abilities come purely from learning (ana INT). They may not come from academic study, but they do come from learning.

I don't agree. Their abilities come from an outside source, a deal made by your or your ancestors. Much like a cleric's power comes from their deity.

So "learning" is not an accurate characterization, or only in so broad a sense that Fighters gain their ability from "learning" as do Rogues, Clerics, and Rangers; which then becomes a meaningless statement.

Charisma makes the most sense to me (being the stat you would use to strike a deal, for example see Planar Binding). But Wisdom works for me in the same sense that Cleric's work off of Wisdom. You are given power by an outside agency, and your force of will uses that power to create effects.


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Just to be clear: I can see Int, Wis, Con or Cha. All depends on the flavor of the Witch in your game - I might personally baulk at a Str or (less so) gesticulatory Dex-based Witch, but if the flavor rocks and the mechanics aren't crazy gonzo I'm all for it.


I think most of the casters could work on any of the three to be honest, just a bit of change of flavor and character with it. If you change it don't forget to increase their skill points per level. Only thing I can think of that might go awry is a dip into monk or syth, but that's something to deal with when it happens.


Samasboy1 wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

They don't have any internal power. Their abilities come purely from learning (ana INT). They may not come from academic study, but they do come from learning.

I don't agree. Their abilities come from an outside source, a deal made by your or your ancestors.

And the result of that deal is 'here's a familiar, he teaches you spells'.


Zhayne wrote:
Samasboy1 wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

They don't have any internal power. Their abilities come purely from learning (ana INT). They may not come from academic study, but they do come from learning.

I don't agree. Their abilities come from an outside source, a deal made by your or your ancestors.
And the result of that deal is 'here's a familiar, he teaches you spells'.

This is all dependant on how you flavor the witch in your campaign. You are therefore both right.

I could see the flavor as the familiar allows the use of embodied spells the witch needs to consult it to use, OR a very strict the familiar "teaches the witch spells".


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

This is all dependant on how you flavor the witch in your campaign. You are therefore both right.

I could see the flavor as the familiar allows the use of embodied spells the witch needs to consult it to use, OR a very strict the familiar "teaches the witch spells".

Personally, I always found the witch's description to be more than just a little vague. Mechanically if your familiar dies you somehow lose spells, you have to commune with it to get any, you get gifted spell by you patron(but never speak with it, even with hexes). Your also supposed to get powers from the patron and through communion with it which somehow turns into a familiar mechanically. Lots of... well... weird. Also have no idea how I'm supposed to come upon my familiar or patron, but thankfully I can make that up.

Not a big fan of the witch class in general, personally. I feel like there should be more and most of the hexes are lacking. I like the idea, but the spell list and lack of good hexes hurts.


Zhayne wrote:

And the result of that deal is 'here's a familiar, he teaches you spells'.

It "teaches" you spells because the Witch is currently an Int based prepared caster.

But the familiar, acting as a conduit for the patron, is still the source of power. And the Witch must "commune" with the familiar. Still seems more like a cleric's relationship with his deity than a Wizard picking up a tome and studying.

I think the weirdness some people see in the Witch is because it mixes different cultural ideas of "witch." There is the diabolic witch, who made a deal with the devil. There is the nature witch, worshiping a a mother goddess and male consort. There is Baba Yaga, and the Wicked Witch of the West. The class melds together different themes from all these very different ideas of witch.


Samasboy1 wrote:
I think the weirdness some people see in the Witch is because it mixes different cultural ideas of "witch." There is the diabolic witch, who made a deal with the devil. There is the nature witch, worshiping a a mother goddess and male consort. There is Baba Yaga, and the Wicked Witch of the West. The class melds together different themes from all these very different ideas of witch.

Too bad the hexes don't reflect that. Diabolic themed hexes sound downright wicked.


Samasboy1 wrote:
Zhayne wrote:

And the result of that deal is 'here's a familiar, he teaches you spells'.

It "teaches" you spells because the Witch is currently an Int based prepared caster.

But the familiar, acting as a conduit for the patron, is still the source of power. And the Witch must "commune" with the familiar. Still seems more like a cleric's relationship with his deity than a Wizard picking up a tome and studying.

I think the weirdness some people see in the Witch is because it mixes different cultural ideas of "witch." There is the diabolic witch, who made a deal with the devil. There is the nature witch, worshiping a a mother goddess and male consort. There is Baba Yaga, and the Wicked Witch of the West. The class melds together different themes from all these very different ideas of witch.

I agree. I think it is tempting to go Cha, and spontaneous for that matter. But reading this thread, I realized that making the Witch Wisdom based will complete a lovely triad of arcane casting styles. As pointed out by Mythic Toaster, I term them Studious casters (Int), Natural casters (Cha), and Devoted casters (Wis).


I give my players the option to use wisdom or Charisma for the witch, it seemed far more fitting than int.


I'd like to add my voice to the idea that the Witch is way too vague.

For me 'witch' could very easily be synonymous with 'druid'. The patron being a vague source of power never cut it for me. In my games I describe patrons as 'manifestations of knowledge', sort of knowledge in sentient form that has a Prometheus complex.

The whole class is very linear. The hexes and patrons are the main things that it chooses to make it different from other witches but patrons don't have much of an impact as say arcane schools, bloodlines or mysteries, the hexes are weak enough that there is a very narrow list of hexes that are wanted making vanilla witches look very similar.


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I allow them to spontaneously cast patron spells, like a druid does with summon natures ally. It adds a little bit to the patron choice.


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Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
I allow them to spontaneously cast patron spells, like a druid does with summon natures ally. It adds a little bit to the patron choice.

That is a GREAT idea. Our house rules give Clerics spontaneous domain spells.


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Can'tFindthePath wrote:
Mythic +10 Artifact Toaster wrote:
I allow them to spontaneously cast patron spells, like a druid does with summon natures ally. It adds a little bit to the patron choice.
That is a GREAT idea. Our house rules give Clerics spontaneous domain spells.

Same. I can't believe I never thought to do the same for witches. Stolen.


Glad y'all like it.


MrSin wrote:
Diabolic themed hexes sound downright wicked.

I see what you did there :D


I'm of the opinion that the summoner and witch should have been switched. Witch Cha/Wis based and spontaneous, Summoner Int based and prepared.


Machaeus wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Diabolic themed hexes sound downright wicked.
I see what you did there :D

Deep down inside I couldn't resist...


MrSin wrote:


Too bad the hexes don't reflect that. Diabolic themed hexes sound downright wicked.

The hexes from the Helion class help out there a bit (I love Supergenius!)

(And Helion is Cha based)


I cast raise thread!

I asked my GM about this because Changelings don't give a boost to Int despite Witch being the class that best fits their fluff (except maybe the accursed bloodline sorcerer) and they're one of my favorite races. He told em he'd allow CHA but would never allow WIS because it makes the witch too SAD (single ability dependent for those who don't know.)

I kinda see his point because witches don't need that many skills and more WIS means more will save. I argue that that could be said of Druids with their damn wild-shaping but they do need some STR or DEX for feats like power attack. Clerics also need some physical stats to stay alive.

But I just think WIS fits in with the class description so much better. They don't study the explicitly undefined, otherworldly patrons that give them their power. They intuitively learn through communion with the patron and heeding their advice. It is very much like a cleric. I fully admit I care more for flavor than mechanics but I don't want to be overpowered so I ask the forums:

Is a WIS-based witch too powerful?


Larkos wrote:
Is a WIS-based witch too powerful?

Has more will save less skill points. Int was more powerful imo. Only time a wisdom based caster might be overpowered is when you get the monks Wisdom to AC bonus through a dip or magic item.

I made a thread asking that once myself.


MrSin wrote:
Larkos wrote:
Is a WIS-based witch too powerful?

Has more will save less skill points. Int was more powerful imo. Only time a wisdom based caster might be overpowered is when you get the monks Wisdom to AC bonus through a dip or magic item.

I made a thread asking that once myself.

Thanks I'll check it out.

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MrSin wrote:
I think most of the casters could work on any of the three to be honest, just a bit of change of flavor and character with it. If you change it don't forget to increase their skill points per level. Only thing I can think of that might go awry is a dip into monk or syth, but that's something to deal with when it happens.

This.

I still think Intelligence works best for the witch. Where a cleric gains their spellcasting through prayer, devotion, and faith, a witch had to forge their pact with their patron through archaic rituals, sacrifices, and studying ancient lore. They likely had to get their patron by studying ancient, forbidden texts that detail contrived rituals to summon forth the power of an otherworldly being.

Honestly, my biggest issue with the witch is that they have almost no crunch behind their patron aside from a expansion of their spell list.


Cyrad wrote:
Honestly, my biggest issue with the witch is that they have almost no crunch behind their patron aside from a expansion of their spell list.

Upside to having a lack of fluff is that its pretty flexible. Not that you can't have flexible fluff, but that you can't say your power is from anywhere from Baba-Yaga to Cthulu... Wait no, those are only two letters. Abadon to Zuriel.

Shadow Lodge

I was very much on the verge of thinking WIS was the more appropriate stat, until you think about the mechanics.

A witch's best "alternative" mechanic based on her primary stat, between having overall skills (and a wizard dip), a high will save (and monk dips), and good social skills (and a oracle/paladin/summoner dip) is the first one - overall skills, by a longshot.

If the witch wants the other alternative mechanics, they're better off having it based off other secondary stats and putting points there.

On the topic of the spontaneous patron spells, seems to me that that would give the witch an incredible buff over other spontaneous casting classes, who'd only get different types of cures or summons, rather than different spells (which would provide a lot of extra utility/firepower).


Cyrad wrote:
MrSin wrote:
I think most of the casters could work on any of the three to be honest, just a bit of change of flavor and character with it. If you change it don't forget to increase their skill points per level. Only thing I can think of that might go awry is a dip into monk or syth, but that's something to deal with when it happens.

This.

I still think Intelligence works best for the witch. Where a cleric gains their spellcasting through prayer, devotion, and faith, a witch had to forge their pact with their patron through archaic rituals, sacrifices, and studying ancient lore. They likely had to get their patron by studying ancient, forbidden texts that detail contrived rituals to summon forth the power of an otherworldly being.

Honestly, my biggest issue with the witch is that they have almost no crunch behind their patron aside from a expansion of their spell list.

"Some gain power through study, some through devotion, others through blood, but the witch gains power from her communion with the unknown. Generally feared and misunderstood, the witch draws her magic from a pact made with an otherworldly power. Communing with that source, using her familiar as a conduit, the witch gains not only a host of spells, but a number of strange abilities known as hexes. As a witch grows in power, she might learn about the source of her magic, but some remain blissfully unaware. Some are even afraid of that source, fearful of what it might be or where its true purposes lie."

The fist sentence specifically separates them from the studious wizard (INT) and the natural sorcerer (CHA). Careful study is further ruled out by some never learning who empowers them. Witch magic has a source in the otherwordly pact but how she casts is intuitive. "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition." She has a similar power source as a cleric, which might explain why she has some divine spells, and learns spells thorugh a similar method. Witch is one step removed from their source whereas clerics pray directly to the source but either way the get their power by asking a being greater then themselves.

As for patron crunch (words I never thought I'd say), the hexes are what make a witch unique so patron spells are just an icing on the cake. I see the point of the patron as helping a witch to nail down their theme. My witch is a prankster who specializes in charming and bewildering people so I picked the deception patron and got a bunch of cool spells flavored that way. Enchantment could work as well but my witch prefers to confuse people; it's just funnier. A witch looking to specialize in healing has her patron and gets some nifty spells they would get otherwise. A winter witch can choose elements and get the bonus spells from that, saving the spells she gets for her class/favored class bonus/scrolls for other useful spells. I fully admit I favor RP over numbers and optimization so take my opinions on the matter with a grain of salt.


MrSin wrote:
Larkos wrote:
Is a WIS-based witch too powerful?

Has more will save less skill points. Int was more powerful imo. Only time a wisdom based caster might be overpowered is when you get the monks Wisdom to AC bonus through a dip or magic item.

I made a thread asking that once myself.

After checking out your thread, which was interesting, I only got half the answer I was looking for. The thread confirmed to me that WIS-based witch is thematically strong and fits the flavor but what I'd really like a real by-the-numbers breakdown of the strength of the regular witch and the WIS-based witch. That way I can see if they break the tenuous balance of full casters or not. Witches are already tier one and don't really need to be any stronger. If they're too powerful basing it off WIS then I'll go with INT or even CHA but I'd like to have the numbers before I commit to that.


Larkos wrote:
After checking out your thread, which was interesting, I only got half the answer I was looking for. The thread confirmed to me that WIS-based witch is thematically strong and fits the flavor but what I'd really like a real by-the-numbers breakdown of the strength of the regular witch and the WIS-based witch. That way I can see if they break the tenuous balance of full casters or not. Witches are already tier one and don't really need to be any stronger. If they're too powerful basing it off WIS then I'll go with INT or even CHA but I'd like to have the numbers before I commit to that.

Well wisdom isn't that strong. You get less skills out of the deal and a higher will save. Other casters are wisdom based and also have strong will(druid/cleric), so its no stronger than them having it. They aren't going to somehow have higher DC's by being wis based than int based. There isn't some 'tenuous balance' of full casters as far as I know, and witch's are actually a weak tier one because their spell list is pretty limited.


MrSin wrote:
Larkos wrote:
After checking out your thread, which was interesting, I only got half the answer I was looking for. The thread confirmed to me that WIS-based witch is thematically strong and fits the flavor but what I'd really like a real by-the-numbers breakdown of the strength of the regular witch and the WIS-based witch. That way I can see if they break the tenuous balance of full casters or not. Witches are already tier one and don't really need to be any stronger. If they're too powerful basing it off WIS then I'll go with INT or even CHA but I'd like to have the numbers before I commit to that.
Well wisdom isn't that strong. You get less skills out of the deal and a higher will save. Other casters are wisdom based and also have strong will(druid/cleric), so its no stronger than them having it. They aren't going to somehow have higher DC's by being wis based than int based. There isn't some 'tenuous balance' of full casters as far as I know, and witch's are actually a weak tier one because their spell list is pretty limited.

By tenuous balance, I mean that I don't mind being generally stronger than the fighter but I don't want to invalidate him entirely. Also "weak tier one" is like being a "weak Great Old One." Just because Hastur is weaker than Cthulhu (in this game) doesn't mean I'd want to fight either of them.

I think think a WIS-based witch was that strong but my GM who is fairly experienced put his foot down immediately when I suggested it. When I brought up the Druid and Cleric, he countered that they are more MAD than the Witch because they are expected to wade into combat more often. Plus you still need STR for power attack or Dex 13 for deadly aim and your wildshape stats don't count for that (as far as I know.)


Larkos wrote:
I think think a WIS-based witch was that strong but my GM who is fairly experienced put his foot down immediately when I suggested it. When I brought up the Druid and Cleric, he countered that they are more MAD than the Witch because they are expected to wade into combat more often. Plus you still need STR for power attack or Dex 13 for deadly aim and your wildshape stats don't count for that (as far as I know.)

Druid and Cleric are only MAD when they build for it. You can build a druid and cleric who don't actually do the battle gig. I've done it plenty of times when I want a more priest or caster kind of a guy instead of a guy who smashes faces in. Smashing people's faces in is dirty anyway, and I'm not a fan of blood on my nice boots.


Larkos wrote:
Also "weak tier one" is like being a "weak Great Old One." Just because Hastur is weaker than Cthulhu (in this game) doesn't mean I'd want to fight either of them.

This made me chuckle. Thank you. =)


MrSin wrote:
Larkos wrote:
I think think a WIS-based witch was that strong but my GM who is fairly experienced put his foot down immediately when I suggested it. When I brought up the Druid and Cleric, he countered that they are more MAD than the Witch because they are expected to wade into combat more often. Plus you still need STR for power attack or Dex 13 for deadly aim and your wildshape stats don't count for that (as far as I know.)
Druid and Cleric are only MAD when they build for it. You can build a druid and cleric who don't actually do the battle gig. I've done it plenty of times when I want a more priest or caster kind of a guy instead of a guy who smashes faces in. Smashing people's faces in is dirty anyway, and I'm not a fan of blood on my nice boots.

"Smashing people's faces in is dirty anyway, and I'm not a fan of blood on my nice boots." Lol. Yeah that's how my witch would feel. I'll bring this up to my GM. Thanks.

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