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So, they're both the prettiest. Or the ugliest, depending on who you talk to.
If you ask me however, you'll learn it doesn't matter which one among the two is prettier. Everyone knows I am the prettiest.
You could make it a skill roll.
Use ranks in
disguise, or perform, or profession (doxy), or maybe even bluff.....hell you get a +5 on bluff if the target is drunk or impaired.
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Girls! Girls! You're both pretty!
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Have them both compare their appearances to someone famous, then like the group vote on who they like better. Or make them both find pictures they think best represents their characters and have the group vote. Or nobody should care about this ever.
Charisma can mean a lot of things, and it's ultimately decided by dice*. Appearance is decided by the player. Now, I might question it if a character wants to be crazy attractive with 5 Charisma representing her "shyness", but if they can justify it, I'll let it slide.
Just keep in mind that Charisma isn't just force of personality. Shyness alone won't suffice. If you have a 5 Charisma, your friends should not see you as a loveable waif. They can see you as attractive, sure, and maybe there's not even a smell or a shrill voice. You can be, by all general rules, gorgeous. But to represent the low score, they will think you're mentally disabled, or utterly useless, or even untrustworthy. They will see you as unreliable, and your enemies as a weak link. They will not respect you.
*Don't tell me you use Point Buy. No derailing my point with facts.
In Pathfinder people are not attractive, they are charming.
A small rule change to allow taking that particular Trait more than once would help settle who is the most charming.
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Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.
Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.
Some people find a well defined and muscular woman quite beautiful.
Also, she may be highly sought after in her community of Orcs, as they may favor her physical qualities, finding them the truest measure of beauty.
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Everyone knows the orc princess Olga, with the str of 20 is the prettiest.
Disagree?
You wont after she beats you unconscious.
Pretends to disagree
bluff + action point
Go compose another dirge, fire priest.
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Count how many mattresses can still feel pea underneath. Add bedpost notches.
That'd be what, a low Fort save?
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Charisma is NOT the measure of beauty despite Captain K's claim. If it was, then a Balor (Charisma 27) would be the epitome of beauty. Anyway, the real way to find out which princess is the prettier is a bit more complex. What are the cultural standards of beauty in the area? What kind of personalities do the two ladies have? Are there any scandals involving either of them that could have damaged their image? Does either one of them have the Charming trait?
Count how many mattresses can still feel pea underneath. Add bedpost notches.That'd be what, a low Fort save?
That certainly brings up a point. What standards are we working off here? While modern society favors physically fit and healthy individuals, some of the favored features of past eras leaned towards frailty (at least for the nobility...who are the only ones people tended to write about).
Pale skin, tender hands, and fainting were all favored only because they could only work in a bourgeoisie environment, where being weak was ok since you never had to really work. Heck, in the 19th century Arsenic (yes, the key ingredient in rat poison) was considered a beauty product.
But this might not entirely work in the typical fantasy setting, since just about everyone here gets a chance at being heroic. So maybe some more female empowerment since they can be taken seriously as warriors? Who knows.
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Once again, the Book of Erotic Fantasy comes to the rescue! The BoEF adds a seventh attribute just for attractiveness. At character creation, just roll an extra set of dice or add 3 points (the equivalent of a 13) to your point buy. Disguise becomes Appearance based, and bluff, diplomacy and intimidate share Appearance and Charisma by GM discretion.
If you're starting a new game, problem solved! If you're mid-game, give your characters the option of revisiting their ability scores. If you rolled, they just roll again. If you went point buy, add 3 to the amount of points they spent on Charisma, then let them re-spend that many points on Charisma and Appearance.
Surely this is the solution is the least ham handed and the least awkward for everybody.
Surely.
There is also a racial difference.
What is beautiful to a Dwarf, may be hideous to an Elf.
nonsense everybody love a bigboned short Girl with generous Sideburns. ;)
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As has been stated again and again, you can't quantify beauty.
Case in point: Take all of the iconics. If you listed them in the order of most beautiful to least in your eyes, I guarantee we wouldn't be able to get a majority of poster's lists to line up.
Beauty is best left in the eyes of the beholders and the players and GMs who play them. I mean, I know I'd be put off by a GM telling me my Shoanti barbarian finds the pampered Taldan lady in thick makeup more beautiful than the bald Amazonian lady or my dwarf finding the drow Nocticula priestess more attractive than the blacksmith next door because of some Prettiness stat.
It just rings false.
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Beauty is best left in the eyes of the beholders
But.. but... Pathfinder isn't allowed to have Beholders! :)
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As humans, we tend to find someone attractive in the first five minutes based on appearance (muscle tone, grace, health). After that, it's how well they stimulate us mentally (conversation, common sense, and personality).
Theoretically, this is why in beauty contests we multiple stages. We get to see muscle tone (swimsuit), grace (walking the stage), and health (swimsuit). Then we listen to them talk, answer questions, and communicate (intelligence, wisdom, charisma).
This is why someone who is physically perhaps not as attractive as someone else can win the contest, and why sometimes you find someone attractive at first but lose interest (or vice versa).
So, honestly, the three physical stats plus charisma averaged together gives a good 'first sight' number for attractiveness. The charisma includes confidence and bearing, which are important in 'first sight' attractiveness.
Then, average all the stats for an 'overall' attractiveness. As humans, the farther out on the bell curve (on the positive side) you are, generally, the more attractive you are. It's genetics. We want our children to be superior, and superior people make superior kids, so we are attracted to what we perceive as superior genetics. Even if we don't think of it that way. By the same token, someone with a superhuman strength but below 10's in all other stats comes off as a hulking brute and most are not attracted to them for that reason, inferior genetics.
Charisma is NOT the measure of beauty despite Captain K's claim. If it was, then a Balor (Charisma 27) would be the epitome of beauty.
Not only the balor. The hags would be quite beautiful, too.
For example this oneAnd lots of other ugly creatures have a high charisma, too.
Some of the iconics on the other hand look quite good but have low cha scores.
Anyway, the real way to find out which princess is the prettier is a bit more complex. What are the cultural standards of beauty in the area? What kind of personalities do the two ladies have? Are there any scandals involving either of them that could have damaged their image? Does either one of them have the Charming trait?
Good points.
I liked the idea to choose a celebrity for both and have the players decide which celebrity looks better.
Ask a speaking magic mirror http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_-pDpLVVNc . For some reasons those seem to be the unquestionable authorities on beauty in fantasy worlds.
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Why not have a beauty contest in some big city? They have to compete with a bunch of NPCs in several challenges tied to different skill checks to become Miss Golarion.
Which beauty are we talking about here? And what kind of princess? We could be trying to judge the fairest of the Adventure Time princesses (of course it would be slime princess) but we might also be talking about the Disney princesses, in which case the one who comes closest to Snow White b/cause, well... the mirror said so.
There is no stat for pretty, b/cause you can't quantify it and it changes ALL the time. Why do you think there's so many DIFFERENT sites on the web that your company's firewall blocks?
As far as charisma goes, it has been well established that you can slap makeup on a pig and they can still be a big star in RL. Therefore charisma is strictly the personality trait. Quasimodo had a wonderful singing voice and got the gypsy girl to love him just by being nice; conversely there are supermodels who will embed a cel phone in you skull just to inform you that you screwed up their latte order.
If there's ANY shred of truth to the OP (and I suspect no, but whatev) then judge the players. Look at them, study their faces and bodies and try to determine which of them you find the most attractive. Tell them your judgments in graphic detail. Perhaps give them a swimsuit competition and be sure to make them wear high heels. Their reward is a kiss from you and the official title of Fairest of them All.
...then Mad Queen Mabbe (BBEG from my own homebrew of Karnoss) sends a cadre of her Dark Folk lackeys to steal the princess to wear her like a gown...
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While obviously individual tastes vary, cultural beauty standards are not actually all over the place as people seem to think. All beauty standards from all errors are based on one thing: wealth.
In the early 1900s for example, pale, unmuscled people were favored, because poor people worked manual labor jobs outside--only the rich worked office jobs. Now, everyone works office jobs, so people favor tanned, muscley people, since only the rich can afford to go outside/go tanning/go to a gym.
The same is true of the past--people liked frail, fainting nobles because only nobles could afford to do that crap. Poor women had to work hard. Ever heard of Rubenesque women? Yeah, because only rich people could afford to get fat--nobody else had enough and they had to work too hard to let the pounds build up.
Even in "barbarian cultures" that people are bringing up, where they like big, powerful women, that's because they are the ones strong enough to hold onto wealth in a system where you only keep what you can hold.
It all comes down to wealth, again and again.
So, the short answer is, who has the most money? Who looks like they have the most money? There's your answer.
Looks are defined by charisma.
Sigh.
Did you not read my post involving the Balor?
Yes and the charisma stat also defines force of personality.
So, pretty sure the Balor is not drop dead gorgeous. You should write the designers and educate them on the definitions of Pathfinder.
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The entry on Charisma says 'appearance'. High Charisma means you have an impressive appearance. Whether or not you define that as 'pretty', 'imposing', 'scary' or 'hideous' is up to the PC (or GM) to decide.
Balors are not pretty. Balors are imposing and scary, and their CHA of 27 shows they're very good at being imposing and scary.
The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.
One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.
ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.
ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.Manipulative girl
ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."
We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.
Ok. So you agree that Cha is not a metric for beauty then. I'm glad we have reached a consensus.
Ok. So you agree that Cha is not a metric for beauty then. I'm glad we have reached a consensus.The charisma stat is the end result of one's ability to get others to do as one would want them to. A charisma 18 can be reached many different ways.
One way is to be rock stupid, yet extremely beautiful.
ex. Beautiful girl says, "I'm Hungry!"
Lots of men wanting to please the girl in hopes that she shows acknowledges them, rush off to get her food, often competing with one another to get the best food for her as quickly as possible.Force of Personality in a tyrannical way.
ex. Balor says, "Bring me a slave to eat."
Lots of little demons rush off to get Balor a slave lest he be eaten instead for being to slow.Manipulative girl
ex. "Brother, get me something to eat, or I will tell father that you were the one to crack the haft on his hammer."
We could go on and on here, but the point is this. All of these individuals needs will be met due to the charisma stat. Yet the Balor rules in fear until something more powerful slays him, the beautiful girl lives in her virtues that will one day diminish. The horrible sister, will either one day be a politician or be backstabbed by her brother.
Obviously your purposely trying to look at what people write. I specifically wrote about a beautiful stupid girl who is also able to get her needs met, not by any factor except by her looks.
I am trying to not be a jerk, don't be one yourself.
Huh? You just wrote about how a high Cha didn't necessarily mean beauty, that it could mean other things. I point that out and you call me a jerk?
Cheers bro, catch you later.
Personally, I say people can run a character how they want and make them look how they want. It doesn't ruin my game if they are more or less beautiful than their charisma suggest or if they have a particular personality. In the end their rolls will reflect them anyway, so may as well let people have their cake and eat it too(I think that's the saying, not keen on these phrases). If two people get into an argument over who's the prettiest it likely won't be resolved unless it becomes a major issue or a plot point, but its something to talk about and at least a little entertaining.
Besides, no matter how pretty their character is I know deep down inside, I'm the prettiest one in the room.
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Two players argue about which of their princesses is the prettiest.
Charisma is not attractiveness, but should it be the decider when there's an argument?
Don't bring Comeliness into this. Please god no.
Depends: are the two players daughters of regular players at the table? If so, then it's based on the average of INT and WIS and CHA. And the stupid prince can go kiss the other 3rd girl, but she is jealous of the two princesses and to try to be like them she spends him into the poorhouse and they live unhappily ever after.
No you point out that it Isn't a metric for beauty. I state it isn't just for beauty. Very big difference.
You're right. I'm a total jerk.
Coherent, intelligible stuff, such as:
"Beauty is a matter of the Quality of your appearance which is highly subjective. Charisma is a measure of the Quantity of your appearance, force of personality, and other listed things and far more objective of a measure."
Right on.
If charisma is appearance and we have a character who is both ugly and has a high charisma then charisma high charisma obviously cannot be a determining factor in their appearance.
Evidence so provided: Hags, balors.
Once again, the Book of Erotic Fantasy comes to the rescue! The BoEF adds a seventh attribute just for attractiveness. At character creation, just roll an extra set of dice or add 3 points (the equivalent of a 13) to your point buy. Disguise becomes Appearance based, and bluff, diplomacy and intimidate share Appearance and Charisma by GM discretion.
If you're starting a new game, problem solved! If you're mid-game, give your characters the option of revisiting their ability scores. If you rolled, they just roll again. If you went point buy, add 3 to the amount of points they spent on Charisma, then let them re-spend that many points on Charisma and Appearance.
Surely this is the solution is the least ham handed and the least awkward for everybody.
Surely.
I refuse to believe that anything that comes out of a book called 'The Book of Erotic Fantasy' isn't extremely awkward.
Appearance is purely a fluff/flavor thing and should not, in any way, be dealt with mechanically.