Beast Rider Cavalier and Mount Size


Rules Questions

The Exchange

I'm looking at the Beast Rider Cavalier in Ultimate Combat and it says that at 4th level a medium cavalier can choose from a list of animal companions. The problem is that most of these companions don't become large until 7th level.

Does that mean you can't even take them or can you still ride them even if they are the same size as you? Can a small cavalier choose from this list as well?


Waffle_Neutral wrote:

I'm looking at the Beast Rider Cavalier in Ultimate Combat and it says that at 4th level a medium cavalier can choose from a list of animal companions. The problem is that most of these companions don't become large until 7th level.

Does that mean you can't even take them or can you still ride them even if they are the same size as you? Can a small cavalier choose from this list as well?

From what I understand you would need to wait until lv7 as you can't use a medium creature as a mount for a medium creature. So you would have to use a Horse/Camel until the start of lv7 and then take one of the exotic mounts.

According to the text, unless a GM says otherwise a small sized character can't pick from the medium character's list. Although, the lists look to be almost identical so I don't understand why you're asking. The only things a medium character can take that a small character can't take are the Horse, Camel, Lion and Tiger.

The best workaround I can come up with is having someone cast Reduce Person on you or Enlarge Person on your mount.

That doesn't work. The text explicitly says you can't take a mount you can't ride naturally. This really doesn't make sense. I guess the "4th level" list should really be called the "7th level" since these lines prevent you from taking them unless they're already large sized:

"A beast rider cannot choose a mount that is not capable of bearing his weight, that has fewer than four legs, or that has a fly speed (although the GM may allow mounts with a swim speed in certain environments)."

"The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character)."

Grand Lodge

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Michael Brock wrote:

I've talked to the Design team about this topic. Here is a summation of their response:

There is no explicit rule in the Core Rulebook that says a Medium creature can't ride a Medium mount, but it is implied in secondary rules, such as the description of the riding dog and horse and the description of the paladin's divine bond. And it's explicitly called out in the beast rider archetype: "The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character)."

Yes, the beast rider archetype (UC page 36) offers Medium riders extra animal companion choices, and at that level some of those cavalier's companions will be Medium rather than Large. But at the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule still applies. So unless you're beast rider level is high enough to make the animal in that list mount-appropriate for you, you can't select it as a mount. It's presented the way it is so we didn't have to have separate 4th- and 7th-level lists for Small and Medium characters (space is short, and writing it that way is cumbersome because at 7th level you'd either have to look at two lists, as in "anything from the previous list plus these new ones," or repeat all of the 4th-level list in the 7th-level list).

Another way to look at it from a different situation. The fighter class gets bonus combat feats. But that class feature still follows the normal prerequisite rules for selecting feats—a 2nd-level fighter can't select Weapon Specialization because he doesn't meet the "fighter 4th" prerequisite. A 2nd-level fighter arguing "but it just told me I can select a combat feat, and Weapon Specialization is a combat feat!" doesn't hold water; you don't meet the prerequisites, so you can't select it.

This is the PFS ruling on medium characters and medium mounts.

It means that a medium creature, such as a human, can never ride a mule, a donkey or pony!

The Exchange

Phosphorus wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

I've talked to the Design team about this topic. Here is a summation of their response:

There is no explicit rule in the Core Rulebook that says a Medium creature can't ride a Medium mount, but it is implied in secondary rules, such as the description of the riding dog and horse and the description of the paladin's divine bond. And it's explicitly called out in the beast rider archetype: "The animal chosen as a mount must be large enough to carry the beast rider (Medium or Large for a Small character; Large or Huge for a Medium character)."

Yes, the beast rider archetype (UC page 36) offers Medium riders extra animal companion choices, and at that level some of those cavalier's companions will be Medium rather than Large. But at the "you can't select things unless you can use it as a mount" rule still applies. So unless you're beast rider level is high enough to make the animal in that list mount-appropriate for you, you can't select it as a mount. It's presented the way it is so we didn't have to have separate 4th- and 7th-level lists for Small and Medium characters (space is short, and writing it that way is cumbersome because at 7th level you'd either have to look at two lists, as in "anything from the previous list plus these new ones," or repeat all of the 4th-level list in the 7th-level list).

Another way to look at it from a different situation. The fighter class gets bonus combat feats. But that class feature still follows the normal prerequisite rules for selecting feats—a 2nd-level fighter can't select Weapon Specialization because he doesn't meet the "fighter 4th" prerequisite. A 2nd-level fighter arguing "but it just told me I can select a combat feat, and Weapon Specialization is a combat feat!" doesn't hold water; you don't meet the prerequisites, so you can't select it.

This is the PFS ruling on medium characters and medium mounts.

It means that a medium creature, such as a human, can never ride a mule, a donkey or pony!

And in the description of Ponies in the Bestiary it says, "Ponies are smaller breeds of horses better suited to halflings, gnomes, and dwarves," except dwarves are too big to ride ponies, despite strong literary precedence.

So by being a medium-sized Beast Rider instead of a normal Cavalier, you give up heavy armor, your mount loses light armor, and you don't get anything until level 7 to make up for it.

I was really hoping to build a He-Man and Battlecat, but he's starting at 5th level.


Fortunately, your GM can always work with you to provide appropriate mounts. If she says you can ride a donkey, you can ride a donkey. Want a large tortoise? Ask your GM, and good luck with the move speed.

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