Advice for surviving PFS


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Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Quote:
Ok, I should have put in a caveat, if you have a dangerous PC, the Clear Spindle Ioun Stone is a must. If you have a bleh PC, then you don't need it.

Confirmed. All my PCs suck.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
Quote:
Ok, I should have put in a caveat, if you have a dangerous PC, the Clear Spindle Ioun Stone is a must. If you have a bleh PC, then you don't need it.
Confirmed. All my PCs suck.

I didn't say suck.

I'm just pointing out that there are people in my gaming group of 20+ players, who have broken PCs, who can do 80-100 dmg per round at lvl. 8, my ranged fighter isn't even the worst offender. And those folks need to have this item before they get turned loose on their fellow players by a dangerous NPC. Because one bad roll from these PCs, can turn a normal scenario into a "Slaughter House" ending.

Sczarni 5/5 * Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman

I have 20 Characters. Three of them have Clear Ioun Spindles. My White Mage(yes its a white mage), my Inquisitor of Besmara, and my Polearm fighter. My white mage has one because no one wants to see her get dominated and continually heal the enemies in a fight... would not be good. My Inquisitor has one because I saw a certain halfling barbarian get dominated one time and it wasn't pretty, he carries one for her. My Polearm fighter has one because he was once sent on trivial tasks like key fetching and giving burial rites to dead people during a very difficult battle... he doesn't ever wanna do that again.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Walter Sheppard wrote:

Number of Walter's PFS characters: 16ish

Number of Walter's PFS characters with a slotted clear ioun spindle: 0.

9

and
0

for me. I also think they are a waste. I can't remember the last time (or if it has ever happened) in a scenario that this Clear Spindle would have helped. I can think of one Module (Dawn of the Scarlet Sun) where a monster had an ability that this would have protected.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Eric Saxon wrote:
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Quote:
Ok, I should have put in a caveat, if you have a dangerous PC, the Clear Spindle Ioun Stone is a must. If you have a bleh PC, then you don't need it.
Confirmed. All my PCs suck.

I didn't say suck.

I'm just pointing out that there are people in my gaming group of 20+ players, who have broken PCs, who can do 80-100 dmg per round at lvl. 8, my ranged fighter isn't even the worst offender. And those folks need to have this item before they get turned loose on their fellow players by a dangerous NPC. Because one bad roll from these PCs, can turn a normal scenario into a "Slaughter House" ending.

In my mind, "bleh" is just as impolite as "suck" when used to describe someone's character. And I wouldn't describe any of mine, Jiggy's, or Rob's characters as such.

Mind control is irritating, but it's not "game over" when used on the party DPSer. You get additional saves whenever you are forced to do something "outside of character" like attack an ally. And if your Will save is so low, there's nothing to stop your buddies from charming you back. Not to mention all the methods of restraining or disabling available to PCs in PFS. Combat maneuvers, nets, rope, darkness, etc.

I feel that the clear ioun spindle is underpriced and overpowered. It also casually removes an element from the game that designers pre-Season 5 used in some key combats (harpies anyone?). Because of this, I would find using one on my characters would make the game, for lack of a better word: bleh.

Silver Crusade 2/5

" You get additional saves whenever you are forced to do something "outside of character" like attack an ally. "

Not all GMs play it that way. I've had the "well, you're a fighter type, so its in your character to fight" explanation. So, yeah, I spent that whole fight chopping my party. I did get to kill and animal companion by critting it with an axe :)

"Mind control is irritating, but it's not "game over" when used on the party DPSer"

I've witnessed this twice and been part of it once. It depends on whom gets DPSed down.

A very simple argument in favor of the clear spindle is that so many NPC casters have suggestion, which is basically save or be out of the battle.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Ah, my mistake. My vocabulary goes like this.

Broken - Disgusting damage or shut down ability. I'm looking at you Heavens Oracles.
Good - Better than average build.
Bleh - Iconics.
Suck - Worse than iconics, you can't quite make up your mind as to what you are doing and you are underperforming vs. Iconics.
Carried - Lvl. 1 of every class. Jack of no trades, master of none, please don't sit at my table.

Silver Crusade 2/5

I guess that makes my magus carried :(

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

David Bowles wrote:

" You get additional saves whenever you are forced to do something "outside of character" like attack an ally. "

Not all GMs play it that way. I've had the "well, you're a fighter type, so its in your character to fight" explanation. So, yeah, I spent that whole fight chopping my party. I did get to kill and animal companion by critting it with an axe :)

I'd direct them over here for some clarity on the subject, then.

James Jacobs wrote:

Yeah; if you force a dominated creature to do something against its nature, it gets that new saving throw. If it makes that saving throw, it throws off the ENTIRE dominate effect and gets to go back to doing what they want.

As for what constitutes "against its nature," that varies from creature to creature. For a PC, I would say that forcing a PC to attack another PC would normally be against a PC's nature and would allow a new saving throw (unless, of course, that PC has already displayed a propensity for attacking other PCs). For most monsters, it would depend. A lot of monsters are just violent anyway and attacking others of their kind is normal. It's left vague deliberately so each time it comes up, the GM gets to interpret it as needed for the specific target in question.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Eric Saxon wrote:

Ah, my mistake. My vocabulary goes like this.

Broken - Disgusting damage or shut down ability. I'm looking at you Heavens Oracles.
Good - Better than average build.
Bleh - Iconics.
Suck - Worse than iconics, you can't quite make up your mind as to what you are doing and you are underperforming vs. Iconics.
Carried - Lvl. 1 of every class. Jack of no trades, master of none, please don't sit at my table.

Hah. If you sit at a table next to Rob or myself I assure you our wacky builds are anything but "iconic."

Silver Crusade 2/5

Walter Sheppard wrote:
David Bowles wrote:

" You get additional saves whenever you are forced to do something "outside of character" like attack an ally. "

Not all GMs play it that way. I've had the "well, you're a fighter type, so its in your character to fight" explanation. So, yeah, I spent that whole fight chopping my party. I did get to kill and animal companion by critting it with an axe :)

I'd direct them over here for some clarity on the subject, then.

James Jacobs wrote:

Yeah; if you force a dominated creature to do something against its nature, it gets that new saving throw. If it makes that saving throw, it throws off the ENTIRE dominate effect and gets to go back to doing what they want.

As for what constitutes "against its nature," that varies from creature to creature. For a PC, I would say that forcing a PC to attack another PC would normally be against a PC's nature and would allow a new saving throw (unless, of course, that PC has already displayed a propensity for attacking other PCs). For most monsters, it would depend. A lot of monsters are just violent anyway and attacking others of their kind is normal. It's left vague deliberately so each time it comes up, the GM gets to interpret it as needed for the specific target in question.

It's still damn powerful against PCs that need 20s to pass the saving throw. One TPK I witnessed involved an optimized fighter archer who had dumped WIS. And I have a tendency to run into GMs who like to pull the 'look it up later' card. Later, as in "after the PCs are butchered".

Grand Lodge 1/5

Whacky builds good, if they do something very well. Some people are masters of combining classes to exploit every loophole and make synergy their code word.

And some people think All Role-Play and No Game-Play.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@David Bowles: No PC who fails a will save on a 19 is optimized, no matter what his DPR would otherwise be.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Okay, DPR optimized. Whatever you want to call it. The bottom line is that 85% of the time, that PC build dominates. It's just that the other 15% of the time, you risk disaster. It's funny how scenario authors never think to put in wind wall or fickle winds.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Actually, I've faced wind wall before.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Sweet. That's pretty cool. Makes the switch hitter ranger look even better. :)

4/5

Jiggy wrote:


You lost me.
So having an item which preemptively answers a given challenge "defeats the spirit of the game", while casting a spell for exactly the same effect and more is totally fine?

Maybe I missed a detail, but that sounds like saying that wearing a shield is defeating the spirit of the game while casting shield is the proper way. What's the big deal about getting a benefit via equipment instead of spellcasting?

I agree, by the time you can reasonably afford a clear spindle ioun stone, a caster can be casting an extended Magic Circle Against Evil that is effectively always up in most scenarios and does more. All for a 1250gp lower investment (just a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell.)

On the other hand, my archer fighter is definitely getting one. Like David Bowles and Eric Saxon say, some characters just do too much damage to leave it to chance. I don't think it would be an epic story to have my fighter kill a character every round or so, it would be infuriating. And some classes, even well built, just don't stand a very good chance against Dominate Person:

Say you have a level 6 (or 7 or 8) fighter with 14 Wis, Cloak of Resistance +2, Iron Will and Improved Iron Will. You've spent 25% of your starting stats, 28% of your feats and 4000gp to do almost nothing but boost your Will save, and you end up with 2 (base save) + 2 (Wis bonus) + 2 (Cloak of Resistance) + 2 (Iron Will) = +8 on your Will save. Against a sorcerer or wizard you're looking at a minimum DC 17, probably DC 19+ save. Your best chance to save is 60%, you get to roll twice once a day so that improves to about 84% chance but still leaves you with a 1 in 6 chance of murdering your party. Against a DC 19 that drops to 1 in 4. And that's after spending about 1/4 of your character's feats and stat points just to buff your saves, which is a massive investment in not doing what your character is expected to do. And this is probably the peak of your character's resiliency, you won't be able to keep up with the increasing DCs.

So yeah, well rounded or not, I think it's a good idea for high damage output characters to have some way to become immune to mind control. 1 in 6 is literally playing Russian Roulette with your teammates, and that's the best case scenario for a character built just to get a high Will save with a low Will save class.

5/5 ** RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I have seven PCs, of which one carries a clear spindle in his wayfinder. I haven't found it to be game breaking, but it does require the GM to interpret its abilities conservatively.

Sovereign Court 2/5

I can think of a number of combats it invalidates.

Anytime you run into a harpy, succubus, incubus, or the like a good portion of their tactics are eliminated.

Spoiler:

Hellknight's feast encounters.
Various Moonscar enemies.

Bigger Spoiler:

Most frustratingly, the BBEG of Bonekeep level 2 which is an evil enchantment wizard. Not sure why they didn't keep him neutral.

Subsequently, my PCs have been carrying them around less.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

For the record, PfE (or the stone based on it) wouldn't block harpies' songs at my table; I interpret the song's non-variable, non-command-based nature to be more similar to confusion or sleep than to suggestion or dominate person.

Sovereign Court 2/5

I don't know, there's some wiggle room but I'd probably rule in the opposite way.

From the PRD on Harpies

Quote:

Captivating Song (Su) A harpy's song has the power to infect the minds of those that hear it, calling them to the harpy's side. When a harpy sings, all creatures aside from other harpies within a 300-foot spread must succeed on a DC 16 Will saving throw or become captivated. A creature that successfully saves is not subject to the same harpy's song for 24 hours. A victim under the effects of the captivating song moves toward the harpy using the most direct means available. If the path leads them into a dangerous area such as through fire or off a cliff, that creature receives a second saving throw to end the effect before moving into peril. Captivated creatures can take no actions other than to defend themselves. A victim within 5 feet of the harpy simply stands and offers no resistance to the harpy's attacks. This effect continues for as long as the harpy sings and for 1 round thereafter. This is a sonic mind-affecting charm effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

And from Protection From Evil

Quote:

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person.

The fact that it's a charm effect suggests to me that it would be warded by prot from evil or similar effects even if it's not explicitly defined as enchantment.

4/5

My oracle purchased the clear spindle ioun stone (CSIS) after he succumbed to harpies' songs in two different scenarios. I considered it a priority buy for him because he's also often the only one in the party capable of clearing or blocking mind controlling effects on his party members (unbreakable heart, protection from evil, silence).

My other character with the CSIS is my barbarian, purchased because she can lay out decent damage and has Superstition. So if she gets hit while raging, it's going to be very hard to clear the condition.

None of my 9 other characters consider it a priority. They've got better uses for their wayfinder slot and/or their gold.

I don't think the CSIS is a universal must-buy, but I think it makes a lot of sense for some characters.

The biggest problem I've seen with it is that people mistakenly believe it protects characters from confusion.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@Acedio - That has nothing to do with why I wouldn't let PfE block it. My reasoning is based more on the FAQ on the subject: PfE doesn't block EVERY charm/compulsion, only certain sorts.

Sovereign Court 2/5

I think an argument could be made that effectively singing a "Move" and "Halt" command would be mental control. Fluff text seems to support that but then again it's fluff text. But good point!

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Jiggy wrote:
Harpie ... PfE block it. My reasoning is based more on the FAQ on the subject: PfE doesn't block EVERY charm/compulsion, only certain sorts.

I wouldn't be surprised if the reason some people think so much of the Clear Spindle is that they have experienced it do more than it should (like block sleep, Harpies, etc)

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Eric Saxon wrote:
Ok, I should have put in a caveat, if you have a dangerous PC, the Clear Spindle Ioun Stone is a must. If you have a bleh PC, then you don't need it. My lvl. 8 ranged fighter. Does 1d8+15 x 4, so if some invisible goon dominates me, I'm probably going to kill someone in my own party, with my +13 initiative. And a good GM will cast the spell and then wait until its your initiative before he tells you, you've been compromised, he'll give people a spellcraft check, if they fail, your party won't even know you're working for the "bad guy" until you open fire on your boys, catching them all flat footed.

Yeah...my characters can do more then that. My barbarian at level 7 will be guaranteed 100+ damage. STILL don't have one of those. I DO use prot evil liberally however off a wand. Now if a GM is breaking the rules and makes it so that you don't immediately notice spell casting (even if invisible...dominate does not lack a verbal component)...then yeah...I may pick one up...but more likely, I'd have a chat with the GM about it. If s/he continued, I'd have a chat with the VO/coordinator.

Silver Crusade 2/5

James Risner wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Harpie ... PfE block it. My reasoning is based more on the FAQ on the subject: PfE doesn't block EVERY charm/compulsion, only certain sorts.
I wouldn't be surprised if the reason some people think so much of the Clear Spindle is that they have experienced it do more than it should (like block sleep, Harpies, etc)

Even if it doesn't block harpies, blocking suggestion and the like is still pretty nice.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Actually a GM just has to ask people to roll a spell craft check. And if you don't, then you don't know what was cast. And the GM is not obligated to tell you who was affected or if they were. Just the player when its his initiative.

5/5

I've found the most important part of surviving PFS is the way that the characters are played. Buying all the unbalanced gear in the game's not going to help if you don't know that it's a bad idea to try and slumber vermin.

Knowledge of things like Reach, Flanking, and various ways of avoiding being hit (knowledge of typical spell areas, high AC/HP, spells like mirror image and displacement) has contributed towards my characters' survival more than any amount of gear.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

Stephen Ross wrote:

first level spell cast at caster level 1 = 1@1

second level spell cast at caster level 3 = 2@3
just a shorthand method.

Ah. Thanks.

4/5

Mekkis wrote:

I've found the most important part of surviving PFS is the way that the characters are played. Buying all the unbalanced gear in the game's not going to help if you don't know that it's a bad idea to try and slumber vermin.

Knowledge of things like Reach, Flanking, and various ways of avoiding being hit (knowledge of typical spell areas, high AC/HP, spells like mirror image and displacement) has contributed towards my characters' survival more than any amount of gear.

hear hear

IMO with so many things out of scope in Org Play, the rest MUST be balanced. If not it's being worked on (and complained about).

"Doin stoopid thins's da fastest way to get kilt."

Some of that knowledge you mention is specialized (as in Spellcraft), but yes, there will always be an acceptable level of metagaming going on at the table. It always crops up with Charms and usually the GM has to step in or roll his eyes at some of the rationalizations.
With some players I've had to help out and say, "you're a 5th level fighter - you know stepping this way (avoiding AoOs) and over readying to attack when your buddy steps up to flank is the best way to attack."
You have to grow good players.

back on track... This is the Advice for Surviving PFS thread...

I think if you want to spend $4000 to stick something in your wayfinder to protect you against something that rarely crops up - go for it.
I'd rather spend it on upping an Ability booster, upping my cloak of protection, Pearls of power, or 3 Breath of Life & 4 False Life & 1 Protection from evil scrolls... lol... yes, I may be charmed but I get to die 3 times (less if you buy those bedazzled gloves)...

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Acedio wrote:

Protection From Evil

Quote:

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person.

[PEDANT]You know, in PFS, when something says "such as" and lists examples you are supposed to stick to only those things listed.[/PEDANT]

I have one on my Barbarian because will saves were a problem for him, and my regular GM knew it. Now that will saves aren't as big a problem for him, I've thought about replacing it.

Sczarni

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Getting back to the topic, here are the things I've learned to give my Wizard, Throckwoddle, the best chance of surviving to his next adventure. Please understand that my decisions are based around playing a spellcasting non-front liner with a 10 Strength who's primary goal is to not die. Many of my suggestions will be Wizard based.

This will be long...:
A wand of CLW is good but if you or any of your party are Arcane casters, a wand of Infernal Healing is a better investment at a guaranteed 10 hp of healing per charge. In my experience, generally you will be burning wand charges out of combat and using potions in combat since CSW potions are less costly than a wand of the same.

After a healing wand, a good investment for an arcane spellcaster would be a wand of Mage Armor and a wand of Magic Missle. For the former, an extra +4 AC for an hour at low level can mean the difference between dead and leaving with your share of the loot but using up one of your few spell slots makes it a hard choice. The wand helps free up your slots for an almost mandatory spell. For the latter, always having an auto-hit attack is a great backup option when you can't do anything else (or aren't sure what to do). And don't forget, you can always ready to fire MM on a spellcaster when he begins to cast to force a concentration check.

Spring Loaded Wrist Sheathes: Throckwoddle owns about eight of these now. Two for himself, the rest to loan out to any party members who don't have them due to ignorance or not having Adventurer's Armory.

Bandoliers: Wear two of them and fill the pockets with all the small doohickies you think you'll need in a pinch.

Extra-dimensional Spaces: Being prepared for every situation requires more equipment than even the 22 Strength Barbarian can carry. As soon as you can afford one, get a Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding, even a Pathfinder's Pouch. Plus, many people forget that you can place extra-dimensional spaces (excluding Portable Holes) within others like nesting dolls, if you can afford them.

Dealing with DR is a pretty big concern at all tiers, so Oils of Bless Weapon are a must have, especially with PFS adding more and more evil outsiders to deal with. Everyone should have an Alchemical Silver Light Mace. It's blunt so it doesn't suffer the -1 damage issue of Alch. Silver, it's Weapon Finessable, most classes are proficient with it, and it's cheap. It makes a great loaner weapon. Weapon Blanches suck for melee weapons but are wonderful for ammunition, especially Adamantine Weapon Blanch. Ghost Touch Salt is also a great thing to use on some spare ammo, because when you need it you will really need it.

The Jade Wayfinder enhancement is a great way to spend 2PP. You should rely on something other than your wayfinder for light anyway so trading the Light ability for Guidance is hands down a better choice IMO. Having a +1 to any skill check that you can use on yourself or anyone else for only 2PP is practically a must!

Dull Gray Ioun Stones: If you use a wayfinder and are a spellcaster or a heavy UMD user you should have several of these. First, they are only 25gp a piece so owning two or three is easy. Second, they provide you the resonant power to Read Magic once per day for 10 minutes, more than enough time to familiarize yourself with a found scroll without wasting a cantrip/orison slot or making a UMD check. Third, and most important of all, you can switch out Ioun Stones in your Wayfinder as often as you like, a fact most players miss. The once per day applies to the Ioun Stone in question, not the resonant power itself.

In regards to light, having hands free light is absolutely critical. Most players will site Ioun Torches, but they only provide light as a torch which is pretty measly. A Miner's Lantern is an alright solution, but I prefer the fullsize Bullseye Lantern for it's 120 foot cone of illumination, 60 feet of which is normal light. I have yet to find a scenario in which that degree of lighting can't illuminate the entire room. The problem of course is the issue of needing a hand free to carry it. Throckwoddle keeps a wand of Dancing Lantern to solve this. It also prevents the uncommon chance of underground gas explosions due to having an open flame you can run into in a few scenarios.

For Swarms, Vermin Repellant is awesome, as are alchemist fires, acid flasks and Potions of Fly or Levitate. Swarm Suits can be useful, but they take time to put on and take off and reduce your movement by half, so be forewarned.

At some point you will encounter magical mist or fog or a toxic/virulent cloud of some sort that can cripple your party. Keep a scroll of Gust of Wind handy for such an occaision.

I can not stress this enough, always, always, ALWAYS keep at least one set (preferably several) of the following; Antiplague, Antivenom and Soothe Syrup. If you can afford it, add Twitch Tonic to that list. If you think you may need the benefits of any one of these items, take the rest of the set anyway. If you anticipate the adventure is going to lead you into a sewer, underground, into a crypt, into a dungeon, into a temple, among undead, into the poor district of any city, among fungus and/or vegetation of any kind, take the set. Basically what I'm trying to say is, any Pathfinder with an inkling of self-preservation should approach a scenario like a hypochondriac who is constantly hosing themselves down in hand sanitizer.

You will eventually run into oozes. If you're going underground or into a sewer, stock up on Bladeguard, Alkali Flasks and Alkali Salts. You will be happy you did.

Once your Fame is high enough, you should buy the headband or belt that gives a +2 Enhancement bonus to your primary stat. Do not skimp on this, ever.

Unless you have a very specific use for your shoulder slot, you cannot go wrong with Cloak of Resistance. Your F/R/W saves can never be high enough. Never.

Grand Lodge 1/5

MrRetsej wrote:
...Third, and most important of all, you can switch out Ioun Stones in your Wayfinder as often as you like, a fact most players miss. The once per day applies to the Ioun Stone in question, not the resonant power itself...

Just a minor FYI, a resonance power, does not activate automatically. It takes 24 hours for it to sync up with a wayfinder, so that the wayfinder can then resonate the new power. So, you aren't able to switch of between resonance powers, like switching batteries in your remote control.

Otherwise, no one would ever have to purchase a 2 or 3 slot wayfinder. Such is not the case in PFS.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Eric Saxon wrote:
MrRetsej wrote:
...Third, and most important of all, you can switch out Ioun Stones in your Wayfinder as often as you like, a fact most players miss. The once per day applies to the Ioun Stone in question, not the resonant power itself...

Just a minor FYI, a resonance power, does not activate automatically. It takes 24 hours for it to sync up with a wayfinder, so that the wayfinder can then resonate the new power. So, you aren't able to switch of between resonance powers, like switching batteries in your remote control.

Otherwise, no one would ever have to purchase a 2 or 3 slot wayfinder. Such is not the case in PFS.

Got a rules source for that?

5/5

Mystic Lemur wrote:
Acedio wrote:

Protection From Evil

Quote:

Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person.

[PEDANT]You know, in PFS, when something says "such as" and lists examples you are supposed to stick to only those things listed.[/PEDANT]

No.

"Such as" simply means "for example." It is not limiting.

From align weapon: "You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike." This doesn't mean you can use it on a claw attack just because they didn't list out every natural weapon.

From baleful polymorph: "If the new form would prove fatal to the creature, such as an aquatic creature not in water, the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save." A fish gets a bonus to its save when you try to turn it into a squirrel (while it's in water).

From bless weapon: "Individual arrows or bolts can be transmuted, but affected projectile weapons (such as bows) don’t confer the benefit to the projectiles they shoot." Bless weapon on a crossbow doesn't confer the effect to the ammunition.

From calm emotions: "This spell automatically suppresses (but does not dispel) any morale bonuses granted by spells such as bless, good hope, and rage, and also negates a bard’s ability to inspire courage or a barbarian’s rage ability." All morale bonuses from spells are negated, not just those from bless, good hope, and rage.

From dispel magic: "You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire)." You can use dispel magic to perform a targeted dispel of any spell, not just wall of fire.

Search the core rulebook for "such as" and you will quickly come to realize it is used to provide examples, not to provide all encompassing lists.

So, going back to the above quote:

Quote:
Second, the subject immediately receives another saving throw (if one was allowed to begin with) against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person.

Protection from evil is not limited to only stopping charm person, command, and dominate person.

Note, I'm not trying to jump down your throat, but I've seen this notion before, and not just with the "because PFS" reasoning. I just want the idea to die. Determining how multiple effects overlap is one of those reasons why the game has a GM. All we can ask is for GMs to make a good faith effort to adjudicate the rules fairly and without malice.

Silver Crusade 2/5

After considering Mike's post, and rereading the FAQ *very* carefully, I'd say that PfE would indeed block a harpy's effect. The harpy effect is too similar to a suggestion/compulsion and not that similar to confusion or sleep. The "such as" argument that Mike asserts I think puts the harpy effect within the boundaries of PfE. YMMV, obviously. Not too sure how far I'd argue this one, though.

Scarab Sages 1/5

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Mike Lindner wrote:
Note, I'm not trying to jump down your throat, but I've seen this notion before, and not just with the "because PFS" reasoning. I just want the idea to die. Determining how multiple effects overlap is one of those reasons why the game has a GM. All we can ask is for GMs to make a good faith effort to adjudicate the rules fairly and without malice.

Sadly many vocal DMs on this board are in the GM vs Players camp and get their fun from "winning" sessions by defeating players. Such an attitude makes fair and without malice an unlikely event.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **

Matthew Trent wrote:
Mike Lindner wrote:
Note, I'm not trying to jump down your throat, but I've seen this notion before, and not just with the "because PFS" reasoning. I just want the idea to die. Determining how multiple effects overlap is one of those reasons why the game has a GM. All we can ask is for GMs to make a good faith effort to adjudicate the rules fairly and without malice.
Sadly many vocal DMs on this board are in the GM vs Players camp and get their fun from "winning" sessions by defeating players. Such an attitude makes fair and without malice an unlikely event.

Then the VOs of those GMs need to have a chat with those GMs.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Mike Lindner wrote:
Mystic Lemur wrote:
[PEDANT]You know, in PFS, when something says "such as" and lists examples you are supposed to stick to only those things listed.[/PEDANT

No.

"Such as" simply means "for example." It is not limiting.

For the record, I agree with you. However, that same argument didn't get me very far in the Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath discussion. I was being petty in my post above, and should have never hit the "submit post" button.

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