Be a lvl 6 Hellknight as lvl 6

[Zahmahkibo]

If anyone was still undecided, today's FAQ update settles it:

Ultimate Campaign FAQ wrote:

Retraining: Can I use train out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?

No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).

[gustavo iglesias]

That's going to cause a lot of fun when someone tries to retrain a class level while having two or three prestige classes that each one allow to qualify for the rest...

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9h

Retraining: Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn't qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?

Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.

For example, if you are a 3rd-level rogue who took Improved Initiative at 1st level, you can retrain that feat and replace it with Weapon Focus. Even though Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of "base attack bonus +1" (which means you couldn't take it as a 1st-level rogue), it is a valid feat for your current level (3rd), and is therefore a valid choice for retraining.

(Note: Likewise, the fighter class ability to retrain fighter bonus feats does not require you to meet all of the new feat's prerequisites at the level you originally gained the feat.)

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gn#v5748eaic9r9e

Retraining: Can I retrain out of my base classes and use my prestige class levels to meet the requirements for that prestige class?

No.
The retraining rules say, "If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can't use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again." Therefore, if you retrain out of the base class and that causes you to no longer meet the requirements of the prestige class, you no longer have access to the class features from that prestige class, and therefore can't use that prestige class to meet the requirements of anything (including itself).

[LoneKnave]

gustavo iglesias wrote:

That's going to cause a lot of fun when someone tries to retrain a class level while having two or three prestige classes that each one allow to qualify for the rest...

Yeah, this FAQ doesn't seem to deal with that at all. Unless they make a ruling that goes something like "you can't qualify for PrCs with PrCs" this is going to keep on being wonky. One of the reasons I'd have ruled the other way (would be consistent with feats).

This also doesn't explain stuff like, at lvl 5 I take a lvl of sorc and put all my skill points into Knowledge:Arcana. Let's say I'm a human with 14 INT. Lvl6 I take Dragon Disciple. Can I retrain class levels other than the sorc into Dragon Disciple? I never, ever lose skill points and keep my skill ranks at 5. So what now?

I get the intent behind the ruling, and I also get that this is the best they can do without major errata to the workings of PrCs. Still a less than stellar solution.

[gustavo iglesias]

LoneKnave wrote:

gustavo iglesias wrote:

That's going to cause a lot of fun when someone tries to retrain a class level while having two or three prestige classes that each one allow to qualify for the rest...

Yeah, this FAQ doesn't seem to deal with that at all. Unless they make a ruling that goes something like "you can't qualify for PrCs with PrCs" this is going to keep on being wonky. One of the reasons I'd have ruled the other way (would be consistent with feats).

Reading the FAQ, all PrC stop contributing for other PrC too. So if you have, say, 5 levels of fighter, 1 level of hellknight, and then 3 levels of, say, Chevalier (who ask for BAB 6), you lose all your PrC.

However... if you have 5 levels of fighter, 1 level of Hellknight, and then 10 levels of Assassin... then you keep your PrC, as Assassin ask for Skill points, and the BAB of assassin will keep the hellkight up.

[Driver 325 yards]

The reasoning that the FAQ uses makes it seem like they misinterpreted your question.

Crazy thing is, if you disregard their reasoning, you do have their answer as being NO.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

The FAQ was written in response to a different question. It was posted here as relevant to a similar topic.

[Driver 325 yards]

LoneKnave wrote:

Unless they make a ruling that goes something like "you can't qualify for PrCs with PrCs" this is going to keep on being wonky.

They just did on the other post

[Pathfinder Design Team]

FAQ updated:
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

[Nefreet]

You should give an example, too.

[KainPen]

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ updated:

Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

That make no sense, especial with a prestige class like the hell knight that is dependent on slay a Devil with hit dice greater then your own. that is witnessed by another hell knight.

I think that need to be reword, to you can't retrain any class level for Prestige class level in which would cause you to go below the normal requirements. or something like that example.

A 12th level Fighter could retrain 7 of his classes levels into hell knight levels thus making him level 5 fighter/7 hell knight. but if he tried to do level 4 fighter /8 hell knight it could not be done.

either that or all special requirement like the one in hell knight need to be removed.

You are basically saying if I don't manage to do this special requirement by level 10. There is no way of getting getting all 10 levels in the class. Thus losing out on the capstone for both your base class and the Prestige class.

That Nerfs the class even more then it already is as well as other Prestige class that require something special like this to take the class. This is complete dm control or just may not happen in the middle of a dungeon crawl.

What is a character supposed to do, in the middle of a dungeon, oh guys I can't do any more encounters or complete this quest. I will not be able to get all my levels in the Prestige class I want. If i gain any more xp, because I can't retrain. We either need to stop and run back to town find a hell knight or you guy are going to have to kill my character to make sure he does not get any more xp and bring his body out the dungeon bring him to a hell knight and have him raised so he can fight a devil in front of it.

That is ridiculous, especial for a class that is weaker then the base class already.

Maybe pathfinder should just get rid of Prestige classes, Make a new book fixing all of them and turning them into full level 20 archetypes of classes that already exist. Prestige classes are failed legacy thing remove them all together.

[James Risner]

KainPen wrote:

That make no sense

This is the simplest way to fix abuse. Otherwise you get into the weirdness of having one PrC qualify you for the other PrC and in turn it qualifies you for the first PrC.

If you can never replace a base with a PrC, then there is no way to engineer into a PC with nothing but PrC's.

[KainPen]

How do you get abuse out of it. If you can't get rid of the base class to it minimum requirement for the PrC. a 2nd PrC is not going to help. Even if you did do something strange the 2nd PrC is dependent on the 1st class also.

Example fighter/hell knight/Duelist for Sake of simplicity.(not that anyone would do this as it completely weak character.)
5/1/1 level 7 would be the minimum possible level for this as hell knight is dependent on the first 5 levels BAB+5 / Duelist requires a BAB +6 making it dependent on both the Base class and the other Prc, meaning the base class levels could never be dropped below 5 for either one.
yes duelist is dependent on and hell knight could be retrain but it would have to be to a base class or separate PrC that gives +1 to bab making it +6.

The FAQ Ruling was just find with making a PrC not qualify for it self that was it got rid of any abuse possible. "Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class." That clause killed any chance for abuse. It basically said you lose everything that had anything to do with the PrC if you lost any of the requirements for a moment. Removing the ability to retrain a core class to a PrC is completely unneeded and uncalled for.

If PrC are that powerful and it is that big of a problem and game breaking when why allow early access through spell like ability for some of the races. I say again it make no sense. It lacks constancy on previous rulings, of allowing early access because PrC are weak and need a boost anyway.

[Titania, the Summer Queen]

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ updated:

Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.

Ok, now some people are going to think they can't retrain a base class for a prc class, but a core class is still ok.

Cavaliers no. Fighters yes.

[Apocryphile]

The FAQ had to exclude retraining base classes for prestige classes, because you just know people would be retraining their PCs to all prestige class builds, with the different prestige classes providing the requirements for each other. It's a bit OTT IMHO ( I can't see a problem with retraining a Ranger 7 level for assassin for example) but it would have been abused if it'd been written less strictly.

Thanks to the guys who kept the thread going, the FAQ ruling gives some clarity.