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Is a Tattooed Cross-blooded Sorcerer allowed in PFS?


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

Scarab Sages

I was wondering if there is an issue with that...


Well there's no PFS specific rule, but by the standard vanilla RAW they're not compatable.
They both modify the 1st and 9th Bloodline Ability Class Feature as well as the 7th level Bloodline Feat.

Grand Lodge ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Vincent The Dark wrote:
I was wondering if there is an issue with that...

Yes there is... IT's not an allowed mix of archetypes by Pathfinder Rules. because they both modify the same class features, which is an absolute no-no in archetype rules.

PFS may suppress a lot of Pathfinder rules, but it generally doesn't give you leave to BREAK any.

Liberty's Edge

Probably better to be asked in the actual PFS forum ...


If there is no PFS-specific rule (either disallowing what's normally allowed, or allowing what's normally disallowed) then there isn't really any reason to start a discussion within the PFS forums: questions resolving around the standard rules belong in the Rules Questions forum... Otherwise every single Rules Question thread should also belong in the PFS forum.

The PFS FAQ does specifically confirm that Cross-Blooded does not work with Wildblooded Archetype, although that also isn't a PFS-specific ruling, just the same RAW rationale that applies to Tattooed/Cross-blooded (or Tattooed/Wildblooded):

Quote:

Can Wildblooded and Crossblooded archetypes be combined?

These two archetypes cannot be combined.

I think if the OP had any question on if Cross-Blooded can be combined with other Archetypes, that FAQ should answer it.

Scarab Sages ***

Vincent The Dark wrote:
I was wondering if there is an issue with that...

I have seen them in PFS play - most often orc/draconic to get +2 per evocation die (or so I was told the reason).

Lantern Lodge Star Voter 2013

This combination is allowed per RAW and PFS. The cross blooded sorcerer does not replace the bloodline power gained it lets you pick between two. The Tattooed Sorcerer then replaces the first and 9th powers gained so they do not overlap just you won't benefit from your 1st or 9th bloodline power. However the cross-blooded archetype is pretty weak because of the loss of spells so unless your build completely relies on the arcana gained I would skip the archetype all together

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Michigan—Alma

Kaisc006, the rule isn't that it just replaces features, its replace or alter features. Because the crossblooded alters how bloodline powers work, the tattooed sorc then replacing them causes them to be incompatible for combination.

**

kaisc006 wrote:
Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
Kaisc006, the rule isn't that it just replaces features, its replace or alter features.
Hmm could you point out this ruling? All I see is that archetypes are incompatible only when it replaces a given ability. Otherwise the Qinggong monk who can replace so many abilities would be incompatible with many, if not all, monk archetypes.

Yes, but the Devs states that the Qinggong monk doesn't count as doing so. The ruling on sorc archetypes is in the PFS FAQ.

Lantern Lodge Star Voter 2013

Yeah I deleted the last post cause I saw it on pfsrd. Lame and confusing they FAQ'd it only for the Qinggong monk because it's doing the exact same thing as a Crossblooded sorcerer. If it was the devs intention that every monk be a Qinggong monk then I guess that's ok.


Well like I quoted/posted, there is a FAQ directly stating Crossblooded isn't compatable with Wildblooded.
The only coherent explanation of that FAQ is that Crossblooded's modifications to class abilities
are mutually incompatable with other Archetypes that modify/replace those abilities.
I'm not sure why anybody would think that changing Wildblooded to another Archetype (that still overlaps with Crossblooded) would be any different.

IMHO, Paizo sees Qi-Gong as less of an actual monolithic archetype, but rather a collection of Archetypal Modifications, ALL of which are optional... Thus Qi-Gong as an archetype isn't really defined before you make your choices. Note how the Ki Power replacement is worded:
"A qinggong monk can select a ki power (see below) for which she qualifies in place of the following monk class abilities... This replaces the monk class ability the qinggong monk gives up for this ki power."
Qi-Gong's ability replacement only occurs if you choose to, i.e. as you define your own custom Qi-Gong Archetype.

In contrast, Cross-Blooded is worded as:
"Bonus Feat: A crossblooded sorcerer combines the bonus feat lists from both of her bloodlines and may select her bloodline bonus feats from this combined list.
Bloodline Powers: At 1st, 3rd, 9th, 15th, and 20th levels, a crossblooded sorcerer gains one of the two new bloodline powers available to her at that level. She may instead select a lower-level bloodline power she did not choose in place of one of these higher-level powers."

So no matter what, the abilities DO work differently (expanded Feat list, selection of powers between bloodlines and from previous levels), even if the 'end result' may be the same as the vanilla Bloodline, you partook of 'modified class ability' means to arrive at that point. Not fundamentally different than Tattooed Sorceror combined with Arcane Bloodline, which replaces a potential choice of a Familiar... with a Familiar. That's still modifying the ability even though the end result is still potentially the same.

Unfair? Maybe. That's just how the cold, harsh, uncaring RAW rolls.

Lantern Lodge Star Voter 2013

They work the same in that a cross-blooded sorcerer could pick all the same feats/ bloodline powers as his "normal" bloodline and a Qinggong monk could pick all the same monk powers as a "normal" monk. Of course the cross-blooded gets an additional bloodline arcana but that's not subject to the debate here because it's a new ability that doesn't replace/modify anything.

I agree though that Qinggong per this FAQ is not an archetype simply more options for a monk. If they didn't intend for it to be an actual archetype they probably should have listed it in the beginning of the archetypes section as additional monk abilities or something similar to additional options for ranger fighting styles or rogue talents.

Lantern Lodge Star Voter 2013

As far as wildblooded sorcerers are concerned, it's unfortunate they're listed as archetypes and therefore subject to these rules and not in similar fashion to subdomains because they work the same mechanically.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Crossblooded sorcerer does not state anywhere what it modifies or replaces at all! Therefor anyone that claims the RAW states one thing or the other is wrong. It is undefined.
The devs have made an arguement that getting a second bloodline arcana is modifying the ability... As well as additional class skills could be reasoned similiarly.
Tattooed sorcerer does not interfere with class skills or bloodline arcana and everything else is optional so at the moment they are compatible.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia , Star Voter 2014 aka Iammars

It's not allowed.

EDIT; Since I know people are going to say this - there is no difference between the wildblooded archetype and the tattooed sorcerer for the purposes of this ruling - both replace a bloodline power.

**** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter 2013

Well bloody hell, so much for my sageblood/tattooed sorcerer idea. I was trying to get a familiar for a sageblood sorcerer.

**

Matthew Morris wrote:
Well bloody hell, so much for my sageblood/tattooed sorcerer idea. I was trying to get a familiar for a sageblood sorcerer.

Sage Tattooed would never work regardless of the FAQ as both replace the 1st level bloodline power.

Wildblooded is still an archetype so you need to reference what changes which parts of the class.

I am currently trying to put together a Sage Seeker sorcerer as a magical skill money and from what I can see they are compatible.

Liberty's Edge ***

I think they are compatible. Unless Tattoo came out later than the FAQ (which doesn't seem likely) I think they would have addressed this in the FAQ. There are not a lot of sorcerer archetypes to address in regards to Crossblooded. I think their silence on the matter is telling since the crossblooded was addressed.

I am one of the people who believes that by RAW the crossblooded sorcerer expands on the options one can choose with the class ability rather than alters the class ability. I think Crossblooded creates a hybrid bloodline - simply that, a hybrid bloodline.

As quoted by Quandry above, the crossblooded "combines the bonus feat lists from both of her bloodlines and may select her bloodline bonus feats" Emphasis should be on "may select _her_ bloodline bonus feats" as in bonus feats granted by the sorcerer class unaltered. That is the way all the powers work.

Just a note - I find it curious and a bit disappointing that so many would make a huge exception for the Quinggong monk (including the dev's) and pass it off as just an exception to the rules they are happy to see, but then get uber strict with something that has genuine ambiguity in regards to interpretation, more so than the Qinggong monk.

Dark Archive ****

Amenhotep -
Please follow James McTeagues link in his post above.
From that post, it will not be allowed in Pathfinder Society - however, the FAQ gives GM's in anything non-PFS latitude to allow the mix.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

It is not allowed, Crossblooded modifies the class bonus feat list, and Tattooed replaces one of the bonus feats, regardless of how Crossblooded works with the bloodline powers, this should be reason enough that they are not compatible.

***** Venture-Captain, New Jersey , Star Voter 2013 aka Shivok

I also think they are compatible. This combo has been talked about for several years and has not been outright banned.

Although Paizo Devs have been ruling more conservatively to tamp down power creep so this may change. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been FAQ'd so FAQ it HERE!.

So we can end this question that continues to surface.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia , Star Voter 2014 aka Iammars

We don't need to FAQ it, because it's already been FAQ'd via the crossblooded/wildblooded ruling. The important thing to note is that crossblooded replaces all of the bloodline abilities - therefore crossblooded doesn't stack with any archetype that replaces any bloodline ability.

This doesn't need to be determined for every single archetype. The logic from the first FAQ works for determining legality for every archetype with crossblooded.

****

I originally thought it did because tattooed replaces features that cross-blooded changes. However, the argument that they don't mix is relatively strong. Considering how often this comes up I would like to see some kind of answer.

It is pretty powerful, 5d4+10 burning hands at level 1 nukes many encounters, and a 1 level dip for wizard/arcanist can actually increase casting level (assuming magical knack) and add a lot of kick to their casting. I'm not saying its op (though it may be), just pointing out the archetype is especially powerful, especially for dipping.

Anyway, I hope campaign management lets us know.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Pennsylvania—Philadelphia , Star Voter 2014 aka Iammars

Why does campaign management need to let us know? What makes tattooed sorcerer significantly different from wildblooded that it deserves its own FAQ?

Liberty's Edge *****

It isn't allowed. Precedence reins supreme.

Scarab Sages **

It would also be one of the few times that a FAQ would be needed for a Companion Booklet.

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