Summoners - What's the dealio? (question about them)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, I see many mentions in other threads about summoners being OP and many people banning them from their games. Which got me wondering: Why?

What about the base summoner is OP? Is it the eidolon plus having 6 levels of spellcasting? Is it really that much more powerful than a druid who wildshapes into a tiger who has a tiger animal companion? Or just a caster druid (who gets 9 levels) with a tiger animal companion? I say tiger (large cat) because I see it mentioned as the best companion because of the pounce.

I can understand a synthesist summoner, since they get the physical scores of the eidolon while retaining their mental (similar to 3rd edition druid wildshape). But is the base summoner really that game breaking?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you can't be bothered to read the DOZENS of threads already posted on this subject, I don't think anyone else can be bothered to repeat YET AGAIN the arguments on this subject.

The answer is in the hand of a player who knows what they're doing the Summoner is one of the easier ways to break the game.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I didn't quite see DOZENS of threads on the subject. A search on summoners yielded mostly questions on the summon monster SLA and generic questions about the various summon monster spells. Went through 150 threads and didn't see even close to a single DOZEN about what makes the base summoner OP.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There have been threads on this question ever since the Advanced Player Guide came out. they're there to be found.


Adjule wrote:

So, I see many mentions in other threads about summoners being OP and many people banning them from their games. Which got me wondering: Why?

What about the base summoner is OP? Is it the eidolon plus having 6 levels of spellcasting? Is it really that much more powerful than a druid who wildshapes into a tiger who has a tiger animal companion? Or just a caster druid (who gets 9 levels) with a tiger animal companion? I say tiger (large cat) because I see it mentioned as the best companion because of the pounce.

I can understand a synthesist summoner, since they get the physical scores of the eidolon while retaining their mental (similar to 3rd edition druid wildshape). But is the base summoner really that game breaking?

Honestly, its less about being OP'ed and more about the rules being confusing enough that they are easily exploited or misunderstood by those trying to play them, forcing GM's to spend a lot of time keeping them on the straight and narrow - this goes doubly for Synthesists who seem to exist for the sole purpose of min/maxing... that and a lot of the grief is directed at Master Summoners who 1) can cause combat to take longer with multiple summoned creatures and 2) can absolutely hose a single encounter by summoning a literal army.

.
We've played very few games without one of these character types present. We played through the entire Skull and Shackles AP with a Master Summoner, we played through the Second Darkness AP with a Summoner AND a Master Summoner (siblings) and at no time were they a problem for anyone in the group - GM or other players. Quite the contrary in fact as their abilities superbly complimented the rest of the group and often made the necessity of a dedicated healer or tank much less, freeing up other players to indulge themselves a bit more in playstyle.

The same way Paladins garner hate that should rightly be directed towards their players, so too is it with Summoners. A well made, well played Summoner is a boon to any party.


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Ok in order as far as I can tell
1 the eidelon math is easy to screw up. A lot of the issues come from this
2 the class is easily the most complicated with a lot of pain in the ass rules that only apply to that class.
3 its not a class with 6 spell casting levels. They get the best of a 9 level list squished into 6 levels. Allowing lots of crafting issues since they get these spells earlier.
4 if you follow the RAW design encounters for a day then they can use their SLA's to Nova boss encounters while still edilonning through other encounters
5 conjuration is a pretty kick ass spec all.its.own without giving it light armor and standard action summons.
6 its almost as ridiculously SAD as the wizard.
I apologize if I missed anything from the dozens of Summoner threads.


Adjule wrote:

So, I see many mentions in other threads about summoners being OP and many people banning them from their games. Which got me wondering: Why?

What about the base summoner is OP? Is it the eidolon plus having 6 levels of spellcasting? Is it really that much more powerful than a druid who wildshapes into a tiger who has a tiger animal companion? Or just a caster druid (who gets 9 levels) with a tiger animal companion? I say tiger (large cat) because I see it mentioned as the best companion because of the pounce.

I can understand a synthesist summoner, since they get the physical scores of the eidolon while retaining their mental (similar to 3rd edition druid wildshape). But is the base summoner really that game breaking?

They're not OP, they're broken. There's a subtle difference. They take an area of the game that's already somewhat problematic (summoning) and greatly increase the power. Compared to a druid, your summons last a lot longer, so it's a lot easier to cast those summons ahead of time.

Summons take up time and space at the table. That's not even getting into the eidolon, which is extremely customizable.

Even the complexity is broken. The FAQ for summoners is long, and sometimes experienced players and DMs mess up on it. The synthesist summoner is probably the weakest of the various types, but is banned from PFS, simply due to that complexity.


FWIW, the Broodmaster is so weak it's almost unplayable.


LazarX wrote:

If you can't be bothered to read the DOZENS of threads already posted on this subject, I don't think anyone else can be bothered to repeat YET AGAIN the arguments on this subject.

The answer is in the hand of a player who knows what they're doing the Summoner is one of the easier ways to break the game.

An important distinction is that it is easier for summoners to be strong, not that they are the strongest.

All the tier 1 casting classes are more powerful overall, but wizards, clerics, druids are generally more complex and harder to optimize.


Broken and overpowered are thrown around freely with summoners. Same thing with the Leadership feat.

Having played a summoner from 1st to 11th level now for a year and a half, here is what I've discovered.

Sometimes you just forget rules or realize you didn't know them fully and your eidolon provides the opportunity to learn things anew.

Ex. Once I got the extra limbs evolution with claws for 4 attacks per round I started flailing away at the bad guys with 4 attacks and taking a move action. I knew you couldn't do that before, I've been a Game Master, so I should have remembered, but I didn't. It wasn't until the player of the druid pointed out what I was doing wrong that I remembered. The GM might have caught this before if he comprehended the quad and pounce rules versus the biped form that my summoner uses.

This is where sometimes the DM needs to have a good grasp of the rules.

Because you can build an eidolon differently over the course of the game, the DM would have to relearn your eidolon every time you change it. And there are spells that allow you to modify the eidolon in the middle of combat. Can't damage that monster? Add some damage. Need to cross a dangerous ravine? Add some wings or dimension door.

The evolution descriptions can be short and thus lacking some information.

Ex. Reach evolution. It says one attack gets reach. That seems pretty clear but because bipeds and quads are base 2 in the limbs department and there are example builds that seem to indicate multiple attacks get reach, people often assume, incorrectly that you get reach with 2 claw attacks. You don't. And you can't take the evolution twice, which is another easy to miss restriction.

I've also read about this "discount" summoners get for spells. In some cases, yeah, maybe, but not really.

Ex. Wall of Fire is a 4th level spell for wizards and sorcerers, but a 3rd level spell for summoners. Ok, but let's look closer at what that really means.

A wizard gets wall of fire at 7th level.
Sorcerer gets it a 8th level.
A summoner gets it at 7th level.

Another spell, Banishment.

Summoners get it as a 5th level spell.
Wizards/sorcerers get it as a 7th level spell.

But again that means a summoner has to be 13th level, same as a wizard.

There may in fact be a few spells that you get earlier as far as character level, but I'm typing while eating, somebody else can get specific.

The action economy is where you want to start looking and if you can, controlling it.

A summoner player will get twice (or more) actions as other players. You get your summoner and eidolon. Throw in summoned monsters, using tricks savvy players know, and you get even more. This leads to the somewhat goofy situation where the synthesist summoner is banned from PFS play because they can outshine other characters at the table, but when you take the action economy into account, it is weaker than a summoner and his eidolon/summons.

But it also leads to bogging down combat as one player figures out all the actions for the creatures he's running. This can be minimized by having easy access to monster stats and knowing what you are going to do ahead of time, but combat doesn't always let you follow your predetermined formula.

Those are what I consider the problems most often worried about.


Wycen wrote:


Ex. Once I got the extra limbs evolution with claws for 4 attacks per round I started flailing away at the bad guys with 4 attacks and taking a move action. I knew you couldn't do that before, I've been a Game Master, so I should have remembered, but I didn't. It wasn't until the player of the druid pointed out what I was doing wrong that I remembered. The GM might have caught this before if he comprehended the quad and pounce rules versus the biped form that my summoner uses.

You didn't get pounce as well? It is only 1 point and available at all levels


CWheezy wrote:
Wycen wrote:


Ex. Once I got the extra limbs evolution with claws for 4 attacks per round I started flailing away at the bad guys with 4 attacks and taking a move action. I knew you couldn't do that before, I've been a Game Master, so I should have remembered, but I didn't. It wasn't until the player of the druid pointed out what I was doing wrong that I remembered. The GM might have caught this before if he comprehended the quad and pounce rules versus the biped form that my summoner uses.
You didn't get pounce as well? It is only 1 point and available at all levels

I tried to make it clearer before posting, but still wasn't quite there yet.

I mean that you can't move and then full attack. But, you might be forgiven for mistaking a move followed by 4 attacks for a creature with pounce.

My eidolon is biped and therefore pounce is not a possible evolution. Considering the amorphous elemental blob figure I was using at the time, you'd could have guessed it was biped, quad, serpentine or three-legged-subterranean-pickle-thrower.

Summing up what I've said above is simple. Better communication with your Game Master might smooth out problems quicker.


CWheezy wrote:
Wycen wrote:


The GM might have caught this before if he comprehended the quad and pounce rules versus the biped form that my summoner uses.
You didn't get pounce as well? It is only 1 point and available at all levels

Pounce requires a quadruped base form.

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