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Free actions have be cleared a bit, by stating that you can only take 3 actions per round, so no more 14 shots for the TWF Pistolero.
My question now, does this also apply to bows? An archer can easily get up to 5 or more possible attacks per round.
Wait, what? You're gonna have to cite that.
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Also, your bow example is not applicable:
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
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Free Actions: How many free actions can I take in a round?
A: Core Rulebook page 181 says,
"Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more fr ee actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
Core Rulebook page 188 says,
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."
Although there are no specific rules about how many free actions you may take in a round, it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action.
Part of this is for the sake of game balance (as some abilities used together may allow you to perform an unlimited number of useful free actions on your turn).
Part is for realism (as just because you can do something as a free action doesn't really mean you could realistically perform that action 5 or more times in 6 seconds).
Part is to speed up gameplay (as one character taking a dozen actions on his turn slows down the game compared to a character who only takes a standard action and move action on her turn).
Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances.
Example: In one round you could speak, cease concentrating on a spell, dismount (with a DC 20 Ride check), drop a weapon or shield, and drop prone, as each is a different free action.
Example: In one round you could reload a pistol three times (using alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload [pistol]), or speak and reload a pistol twice, as you are repeating the same free action multiple times.
—Pathfinder Design Team, Thursday
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Free actions have be cleared a bit, by stating that you can only take 3 actions per round, so no more 14 shots for the TWF Pistolero.
That's not what the FAQs says at all.
Nefreet nocking the arrow is no action but drawing the arrow is a free action.
The FAQ merely re-iterates what is said in the PRD; there is no hard limit, but the GM can impose reasonable restrictions to avoid ridiculous situations and power-gaming abuse. It gives an example of what could be a reasonable set of restrictions, but it is in no way binding.
It gives an example of what the developers believe to be a reasonable set of restrictions.
Big Difference
I like that they've given a bit more clarification to what they meant and provided as sense of the way they intend for it to function.
Ok, so I can't spam a ton if shots with...anything..that's fine with me, it makes feats, skills, and other methods of combat more useful. Making my characters less gimmicky.
I like that they've given a bit more clarification to what they meant and provided as sense of the way they intend for it to function.
Yeah, you had as many as you wanted until you did something ridiculous and the GM said no(like juggle weapons 30 times because you felt like it). That was already there.
Ok, so I can't spam a ton if shots with...anything..that's fine with me, it makes feats, skills, and other methods of combat more useful. Making my characters less gimmicky.
Erm... it did nothing to make your characters less gimmicky.
I like that they've given a bit more clarification to what they meant and provided as sense of the way they intend for it to function.Yeah, you had as many as you wanted until you did something ridiculous and the GM said no(like juggle weapons 30 times because you felt like it). That was already there.
Ok, so I can't spam a ton if shots with...anything..that's fine with me, it makes feats, skills, and other methods of combat more useful. Making my characters less gimmicky.Erm... it did nothing to make your characters less gimmicky.
Different GM's had different views on what was too many actions, this gives a more consistent way of doing it. Cross GM consistency is an awesome thing to have with big gaming groups.
I meant that you can't make characters that focus on abusing the mechanic. With these guidelines it stops some of the shenanigans you see on the board.
Guys? You're seriously debating about an hard limit to free actions quoting a faq and saying that if the developers believe that 3 is reasonable for repeated actions this is a limit to observe? Hey, that's crazy...
Here is the FAQ reference:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#
No actual change has happened.
None.
No new limit.
That was my thought, but we have 2 threads on it atm.
Ok, another Monk Flurry with 1 weapon 'clarification' it seems.
This should drive a few 1000+ threads, and probably take another year or so for the devs to re-clarify, if past experience is anything to go by when it comes to this.
Going by the Dev suggestion (which many DMs do), any Archery build is now gimped (yes, knocking is a non-action, but drawing the arrow to put it in the bow and knock it is a free action). A Zen Archer can't flurry more than 3 arrows with that ruling. Archery Fighter maxes out at level 11 (or 6 with Rapid shot).
And there's no difference, mechanically, between pulling a bullet off, putting it in the gun, and firing it, than there is with a crossbow bolt, putting it in, and firing it. And this would also break Crossbow builds above 11th level.
*sigh* I suspect someone didn't think this through all the way before posting the FAQ
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The FAQ says that there are no specific rules for limiting free actions. Anything saying that you can only take 3 free actions or 5 free actions is the same as something saying you can only take 99 free actions or 1 free action, it is a limit placed by a GM to prevent abuse of the free action system (like saying everything you know about a creature after a successful knowledge check and spending something around 34 free actions to weapon cord pistol juggle)
Or to summarize, the FAQ is mostly to encourage GM's to prevent free action cheese. It isn't the rule, it is a possible rule.
The FAQ says that there are no specific rules for limiting free actions. Anything saying that you can only take 3 free actions or 5 free actions is the same as something saying you can only take 99 free actions or 1 free action, it is a limit placed by a GM to prevent abuse of the free action system (like saying everything you know about a creature after a successful knowledge check and spending something around 34 free actions to weapon cord pistol juggle)
Or to summarize, the FAQ is mostly to encourage GM's to prevent free action cheese. It isn't the rule, it is a possible rule.
I would agree, except for the fact they specifically called out the example of loading bullets into a gun. This is no different than loading a crossbow (heck, i'd say loading a crossbow takes way more than loading a revolver). That brings it directly into class function. Which means a gunslinger using these 'suggestions' can't fire more than 3 rounds regardless of BAB. And under that logic, nor should a Zen Archer, an Archery Fighter, a Divine Hunter Paladin, etc.
So, nothing has changed in the slightest other than some froth-inducing examples of particular designers' house rules. There are no rules for limiting free actions other than an explicit arrow pointing to Rule Zero, same as before.
Carry on, then.
It's bad form to have an FAQ that specifically violates the way classes use their class abilities 'as a suggestion'.
Doesn't affect me, I have a sane DM and am a sane GM. So I'll just ignore it as being a really bad idea on someone's part.
Doesn't mean it's a good FAQ to have floating around, as there are some bad GMs out there that will use it as a way to nerf ranged attacks.
If this FAQ isn't meant to do anything why post it? The CRB already had "free actions limited by GM". /sigh
It is rulings like this that make me think the design team is bad at their jobs. My condolences to anyone who plays PFS.
Its not really a ruling as much as a suggestion as to what is reasonable as far as I can tell. I would think it was posted because people Frequently Asked Questions about how many free actions you could take.
Its not really a ruling as much as a suggestion as to what is reasonable as far as I can tell. I would think it was posted because people Frequently Asked Questions about how many free actions you could take.If this FAQ isn't meant to do anything why post it? The CRB already had "free actions limited by GM". /sigh
It is rulings like this that make me think the design team is bad at their jobs. My condolences to anyone who plays PFS.
Which would have been fine if they stuck to examples of really dumb things, like :
Lightspeed Rod : The GM is perfectly justified to say that you can't stand in a circle, passing a wooden stick as a free action more than once all the way around the circle, or have more than 6 people do it in a row.
Juggling Sword : The GM is perfectly justified to say that you can't switch your short sword back and forth between hands during a full attack actions to two-weapon fight with one weapon.
By using the example of loading a pistol, they have explicitly given an example that breaks the basic rules of BAB for a specific class (that is, if I can pull ammo and load it as a free action, I may make as many iterative attacks as my BAB allows), which also just happens to be the same rule all archers use to do the same thing.
That's what I thought. It really isn't great at all. And even with at GMs interpretation - there will be inconsistencies. Esp., in PFS. And then, you nerf some classes. Yes the TWF pistolero is cheese, but there is other cheese as well. And this is an "over-nerf", at least IMHO.
By using the example of loading a pistol, they have explicitly given an example that breaks the basic rules of BAB for a specific class (that is, if I can pull ammo and load it as a free action, I may make as many iterative attacks as my BAB allows), which also just happens to be the same rule all archers use to do the same thing.
I don't disagree about that. That's one of the few things I'd never apply it to.
How many of us are currently running campaigns of high enough level that this will effect us?
My Kingmaker PC's are at 10th currently so this has no impact on them for a while yet.
If this FAQ isn't meant to do anything why post it? The CRB already had "free actions limited by GM". /sigh
It is rulings like this that make me think the design team is bad at their jobs. My condolences to anyone who plays PFS.
Why? The faq cannot overwrite the rules. They just clarify them. At least AFAIK. And again, this specific faq has a suggestion, nothing more.
I'm not currently playing (or GMing for) any characters that this would impact, but I'm going to go ahead and ignore this one for now.
This FAQ actually makes things more confusing for GMs than not having it at all... *sigh*
I predict there there will be extreme discord on this one. Let's all try to keep it civil and express clearly and calmly why this ruling is a problem. Vitriol is nonproductive.
Why? The faq cannot overwrite the rules. They just clarify them. At least AFAIK. And again, this specific faq has a suggestion, nothing more.If this FAQ isn't meant to do anything why post it? The CRB already had "free actions limited by GM". /sigh
It is rulings like this that make me think the design team is bad at their jobs. My condolences to anyone who plays PFS.
And again, the suggestion specifically breaks the core rules for specific classes (gunslinger, zen archer monk, divine hunter paladin, archery fighter, archery ranger).
Suggestions are fine, suggestions that break core rules are really not fine. They're about as far from fine as you can get.
May I suggest we all FAQ the OP? As this should be clarified, now that it's been 'clarified'.
How many of us are currently running campaigns of high enough level that this will effect us?
My Kingmaker PC's are at 10th currently so this has no impact on them for a while yet.
It affects a Pistolero as early as 1st level if she can afford two double-barrelled pistols, though realistically it kicks in at at least 5 due to money and accuracy considerations.
It affects a Pistolero as early as 1st level if she can afford two double-barrelled pistols, though realistically it kicks in at at least 5 due to money and accuracy considerations.How many of us are currently running campaigns of high enough level that this will effect us?
My Kingmaker PC's are at 10th currently so this has no impact on them for a while yet.
Ok, worth noting. Only seems to the effect highly optimized builds at low to medium levels.
Well, sorry folks, but I must be off to run my Kingmaker game. We play all day Sunday too so I will not be free until tomorrow night. I will catch up on all this Monday. Enjoy your weekend and best of luck to you all.
I've removed some posts. Remember the most important rule of the Paizo message boards.