As far as PFS-legal advice,
Researching which spells may be verbal-only is irrelevant as far as Grappled is concerned (it doesn't change anything re: Concentration Check), but it IS relevant if the Grapple proceeds to Pin (somatic/material spells are not allowed, while verbal spells are - with same Concentration check as while Grappled).
I wouldn't give up on Casting while Grappled so easily, a Caster BBEG should be above the PC's level anyways, so their Concentration Check should be decent... Certainly if the NPC happens to have Combat Casting Feat you should notice that fact and make use of it... that's what it's for. If the Grappler is a Monk they should only be applying their 3/4 BAB to CMD, they get to use Full Class Level as BAB for CMB, but not for CMD.
And remember, the lower level the spell, the easier the Concentration Check, so consider low level spells which can still be effective. Anything that can remove the Caster from the situation (e.g. Dimension Door), or either incapacitate the Grappler or make it harder for them to succeed at subsequent Grapple checks would be very effective. Grease (1st level) boosts CMD by +10 and also gives that same bonus to Escape Artist/CMB to Escape. Alternatively, True Strike gives +20 to next attack, which can be to Escape the Grapple/Pin.
Also consider any (Su) abilities that may be useful or magical items that could be used 1-handed (no Concentration check).
If the Caster has a decent CMD to begin with (i.e. Monster or Cleric), it may be useful to just use Total Defense whose Dodge bonus also effects CMD, especially if they have 3 ranks in Acrobatics (+6 instead of +4 Dodge bonus).
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I love how the theme of this thread is that somehow the player is doing something wrong as opposed to having encounters versus single spell casters not being a good encounter. 1 thing happens to the person and the fight is over. So this flavor was grappled. It could have been any number of things. 1 failed hold person, etc.
Fix the source of the problem (bad encounters, assuming you need a 'boss fight', etc) and you'll not have to worry about.
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When DM'ing something that you KNOW that OP build is going to cakewalk and diminish the fun for the table you can always do what I've seen done a few times.Hand the OP monster a chronicle sheet, congratulate them on their single handed success and send them on their way. After that turn back to the table and continue the introduction for the rest of the players.
Do that a few times and the player will correct themselves or level that character out of the society.
Mathwei, I put this post aside for a minute, took a deep breath, handled some other tasks, and I think I'm finally at a point where I can address this.
I've heard of people who dismiss a player, with a Chronicle sheet, during a game where they are making a mess of things: not breaking any rules, but over-powering the rest of the party. It has much less to do with a one-trick build as with play style.
I don't like that technique, but I can see it being a tool in a GM's toolchest. It's grossly insulting to the player.
But you're claiming that you've seen it done, and that it was done before the game even started.
It's still grossly insulting to the player, but for no reason. "You want to play this scenario with your tiefling paladin? Too bad. I think your PC might be an overmatch for the encounters, so I'm going to kick you from my table, with no chance to establish whether you're actually going to wreck the scenario or not, and I'm going to hand you a Chronicle* so that no other GM can let you play at his table either, even if he wanted to."
I hope to heaven that I'm never at a table where a judge tries to pull that on a player.
*(0 xp, 0 pp, 0 gold, I presume, since the PC didn't get to play through any encounters)
Actually no it does none of this. This is something you do ONLY with the player who you KNOW is going to steam roll this adventure and marginalize the other players and ruin their fun. Also this does not stop the player from playing the adventure with another character.
Remember, until they fill in that sheet and hand it back to you for a signature nothing has happened. They can take the sheet as a freebie and go do something else, decide they want to play a different character or just refuse it and walk away.Until you sign it nothing is official.
@Jiggy, as to the legality of this option... well for that we fall back onto the effective rule 0 for PFS play from the guide.
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and
responsibility to make whatever judgements, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience.
If I KNOW for a fact that that character will cause the rest of the table to have a NOT fun experience it's my responsibility to do something about it as long as it's within the rules.
We can't ban that character and we can't modify the scenario so all we can do is follow the foregone conclusion (it's assumed the players will win any scenario) so give em a sheet with what they have earned and move on.|
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TL;DR
Remember if you're grappling a creature with multiple natural attacks or iterative attacks with a one-handed or light weapon already in hand, you're going to get hit hard. And often.
Also, if all you're doing is running up to the BBEG and grappling to get the 'I win' condition, it's no different than if you were casting a persistent save or suck spell. Ask yourself if it's the most fun option for the entire table, not just yourself.
*casts mergy's magical mouth*
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Mathwei,
You've seen GMs hand a problem player a blank Chronicle sheet? What's the point to that? What was the result?
"I know you're going to be disruptive at my table; people with that build always are, and I know you won't play with discretion. So, here, have a Chronicle sheet. Find out what trasure and boons are available, and then come back and play." What? That sounds welcoming, if anything. "Why yes, now that I have all this information spoiled for me, I'd love to sit down and play with you."
Did you see the Chronicles in question? Are you sure you didn't see GMs hand players a filled-in, signed sheet, a "congratulations, you've won, now go away" sort of move? That's the only thing that makes sense. (Illegal though it is.)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16
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You don't have to be nasty about it, but he needs to be reminded that organized play GMs won't have the options for customizing scenarios that a regular campaign GM might. They can't adjust things on the fly to make the challenge level better suit the party's abilities.
This is no different than players who run one of the other extremely optimal builds out there: Advise him that GMs and other players are discouraged by the way his character virtually solos encounters and would rather play with someone else. "Anyone can build a character that exploits the rules to be invincible. Do you really want to be 'THAT GUY'?"
If he's particularly fond of the character and its uber-grappling ways, he may want to consider less-optimal tactics in some fights, letting others enjoy some time in the spotlight. He may want to "handicap" himself by donating substantial amoints of his gold to "charity" (The Old Pathfinders' Home?).
Alternatively, if he puts the character onto the back burner (or slow advancement) until the rest of the party is slightly higher level than he is, they may catch up to his power curve.
From what you've said, this guy makes no secret of his approach to dealing with foes. If the party's foes should reasonably know about his tactics, they may reasonably diverge from the tactics dictated by the scenario, specifically preparing for a grappler when they ready themselves for combat.
Mirror Image as a pre-combat buff should help against grapple.
My favorite tactic is having the caster invisible and they have an illusion of themselves on the other side of the room, so the group wastes a round or so of their best attacks against the illusion until they realize it isn't real.
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Speaking as a local coordinator for Mathwei, I am fairly certain that he has not seen this done. However many times we wanted to hand him the sheet, we held back.Mathwei,
You've seen GMs hand a problem player a blank Chronicle sheet? What's the point to that? What was the result?
You assume I only play at your location?
You forget how much I travel.
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Its interesting to see how people jump on the Tetori for making the scenario unfun for everyone. Did anyone ask was it?
Did they tell the Tetori hey tone it down some other we aren't have fun?
Did the GM pull him aside and say hey, you can make this encounter a bit too easy, why don't you pull some punch here and I will make this adjustment within his tactics there and we can try to see how this works?
Did they look at the party composition and cringe and realize that in a tough scenario hey maybe this is the only way to live and not get dead?
Heck so many people saying grappling builds should be ashamed because they take the fun away from the other players. We should shame gunslingers too for trivializing high AC bosses by hitting their touch ac. We should shame witches for putting all those debuffs on their targets and then making them suck or wizards who drop empowered fireballs at level 7 and trivialize encounters...
Or perhaps there should be at least some communication. I mean just because you can do something doesn't mean you should be ashamed of it you should be allowed to at least be told first before a bunch of people jump down your throat.
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I agree with chris in refusing to DM. You are a human being and becuase you volunteer to DM something does not mean they can wreck yoru fun volunteering. Now saying chris is a jerk saying no and taking his ball home is crazy and rude to say. Because it is a compromise that player with the grapple monk can just as easily agree to play something else or do something else. Now if you hear tetori monk and instantly pack your thgings up and run out the door without another word. Well yeah thats a jerk move too. But chris is epxereince and intelligent enough to talk and work with people. As should any DM for PFS,
A volunteer DM is NOT a slave. I try to bring my DMs food and show gratitute towards them for what they choose to do.
In the end we all intelligent humans that should respect and work together to have a fun time. The people that do not should find somewhere else to go.
On a personal note there is one player I am on the verge of never DMing for. He has assualted 3 players myself included, generally makes other player uncomfortable, and cheats consistently. I have given him a last and final warning. That is my choice as a human to volunteer. If ANYONE said I was in the wrong for making that choice they would lose respect with me.
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Because it is a compromise that player with the grapple monk can just as easily agree to play something else or do something else
Thats not a compromise, at all. Not everyone has a pile of dead bards they can whip out to suit the dm's tastes.
Its a legal character. Its a legal tactic. Its waaay less cheese than some of the other stuff out there.
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I just want to clarify....I never intended to state that I found grapplers wrong/bad/fun....just that I wanted to know the best way to respond tactically to provide the best experience....I was woefully unprepared when this player brought it out and was just seeking ideas about how to respond.
All of the reasonable responses are kind of out of your hands. The way you usually deal with it is
1) have a wand , not under your control
2) cast freedom of movement.. not under your control.
3) have multiple rogue mooks so that grappling the big bad = lots of stabby stabby, not under your control.
4) have co partners in crime so that a grappled big bad isn't that big of a deal- not under your control.
5) make a concentration check with a spell like ability... the dcs are game breakingly hard.
6) have an su. ability- not under your control.
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People, people, people and gms of PFS don't worry about munchkin players it is legal!! If the scenario is too easy for them, it is too easy, no problem!!
You make the game for fun not for win, if you play against a player you don't fun with your gm task, play the solution appear by itself, every scenario is different and the characters has many situations to die, more level, more chance to die.
Be funny with them and play, play, play no problem for too easy scenarios and his final bosses!! I gmed Delirium's Tangle and only hit one or two times a character, too easy? Yes, funny, a bit, next time? Other scenario!!
Be happy my friend!! And don't worry, your are the teller, the dm/gm, not the winner!!
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Grappled or pinned while casting: 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level
My grapple character would be forcing checks of mid 40's on level 1 spells...
One thing I have noted while browsing through things I've run and DM'd is that the early tier baddies are extremely vulnerable to grappling (It's Super-effective!). A reasonably competent duo can run around at level 2 forcing enemies to effectively take DC30 save or dies (tying focused archetype combined with a grapple build), and the main issue with the "anti-fun" aspect is the relatively early power spike. However like most early power builds, it drops off as levels and creatures advance. One scenario I'm looking at running in the next couple of weeks features an end boss that is nearly impossible to grapple (CMD well over 40) and even if you do, it has 5 natural attacks to kill you with (base damage is something over 50). I personally love having a grappler in the party because it has saved the party from at least one TPK that I've played in (and the grappler was hard pressed to hold on to the caster). Condemning a grappler because it is effective against casters is akin to telling the bard not to buff the party because it makes them too strong or the barbarian not to power attack...
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Also, if all you're doing is running up to the BBEG and grappling to get the 'I win' condition, it's no different than if you were casting a persistent save or suck spell. Ask yourself if it's the most fun option for the entire table, not just yourself.
*casts mergy's magical mouth*
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.
^ This
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Getting the thread back on track.
Can someone please explain to me why the Tetori monk archetype is so much better than say… a grappling fighter? I read the archetype and I just don’t see it.
Tetori advantages:
1) No penalties to attack or defend while grappling. Useful, but he’s still working with a moderate BAB and lost Flurry, so his ability to attack is similar to a full BAB class and less at later levels. His ability to pin and tie up opponents should be the same as a fighters.
2) Tetori can escape (or avoid) opponents grappling him (which means he’s not in his element but grappling can’t be used against him).
3) Break Free is over-the-top considering it replaces High Jump and makes Tetori “unstoppable”. It should only affect the entangled condition and should not affect paralysis, staggered, and slow conditions, but whatever. This wouldn’t pass RPG Superstar, how does it pass editing? Still would not affect 95% of fights compared to a fighter.
4) Lots of nice abilities to stop spellcasters from escaping at level 9+, but it comes at a cost. I’m not a fan that it’s an automatic suppression of spells, but whatever. If anything, this ruins encounters because it makes spellcasters basically defenseless, but it’s only at level 9+.
However, this does not explain why they are better than another full BAB class that grapples. So if someone could explain, that would be great.
Maybe the problem is the GRAPPLING rule set, not this archetype.
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Tetori are good grapplers, but one advantage they do have is being on the monk chasis. This gives them, when unarmored Wis to CMD plus scaling level bonus to AC and CMD.
All good saves barbarian and fighter grapplers have good fort meaning Will save control effects have an easier time to shut them down.
Mobility - Monks are fast.
Bonus feats - Monks Get Imp Grapple and Greater Grapple along with other grapple feats for free.
Penalty removal - dont lose dex to ac while pinning a target. Unarmed fighters don't get this til 7th though they do get DR vs. damage while being grappled and the Brutal Pugilist barbarian may not get any benefit at all.
In general however a Non-tetori monk is likely to have lower CMB numbers to actually land the checks and lack the versaltily of the other classes, a barbarian grappler can still pull out a 2h sword, rage and power attack and fighters still get weapon training and fighter feats.
And yes, its not about Tetori its how in a one on one a good grappler can potentially shut down an encounter. Its important if this might
come up to establish a dialogue and suggest that for the sake of fun, you should just grapple him as a debuff and then just do damage.
Friend of mine had a Barbarian wrestling build with animal fury, he would initiate a grapple get a bite attack in and then grapple, move to pin, free bite attack, then using rapid grappler move to do damage and get another free bite attack. He used the Anaconda's Coil to deal constrict damage with every grapple check. In one round he could Bite 3 times, constrict 3 times and deal damage through grapple. All on a Tengu that pecked people to death.
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Don't forget that the guide states that if the players negate the tactics as written, you are empowered to modify the tactics...
This is far less useful than it sounds at first. Especially since the NPCs don't usually know a priori that they are up against a grappler. Try to modify those tactics once the pin is in place.
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TL;DR
Remember if you're grappling a creature with multiple natural attacks or iterative attacks with a one-handed or light weapon already in hand, you're going to get hit hard. And often.
Also, if all you're doing is running up to the BBEG and grappling to get the 'I win' condition, it's no different than if you were casting a persistent save or suck spell. Ask yourself if it's the most fun option for the entire table, not just yourself.
*casts mergy's magical mouth*
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.
Most power gamers *literally* don't understand this.
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People, people, people and gms of PFS don't worry about munchkin players it is legal!! If the scenario is too easy for them, it is too easy, no problem!!
You make the game for fun not for win, if you play against a player you don't fun with your gm task, play the solution appear by itself, every scenario is different and the characters has many situations to die, more level, more chance to die.
Be funny with them and play, play, play no problem for too easy scenarios and his final bosses!! I gmed Delirium's Tangle and only hit one or two times a character, too easy? Yes, funny, a bit, next time? Other scenario!!Be happy my friend!! And don't worry, your are the teller, the dm/gm, not the winner!!
This. It is not the fault of the GM, nor the other players, or even the munchkin if the author writes an encounter or multiple encounters that utterly fail when faced with a Tetori.
The authors did a much better job in season 4 about avoiding these kinds of let downs, but from what I've seen of season 5, they seem to getting back to old habits. NPCs in general need more ways to deal with outside-the-box player tactics. And this includes buffs to their CMDs.
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My suggestion to the OP: find other places in the scenario to engage the other players. You're in the situation of knowing most of your players, their characters, and their tactics - as well as what the NPCs are - when they sit down. If you know the grappler is going to dominate the BBEG and end what could be an hour-long fight in three minutes, that will be his moment.
Maybe have an NPC take an unhealthy interest in the rogue somewhere out of combat. ("Daddy, daddy, can I come play with you?") Have a scholar engage the cleric in a philosophical debate.
The point is: you really can't do much about the combats. Focus your energies on making it fun elsewhere for everyone.
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Because it is a compromise that player with the grapple monk can just as easily agree to play something else or do something elseThats not a compromise, at all. Not everyone has a pile of dead bards they can whip out to suit the dm's tastes.
Its a legal character. Its a legal tactic. Its waaay less cheese than some of the other stuff out there.
I agree it is a legal tactic. I agree there are more powerful builds ideas.
I do not agree a DM has to sit through anything they do not want.
A human being has a right to choose how to spend their free time. If they decide they might volunteering DM. They also have every right to decide not to for any reason. IF the table can not convince said DM otherwise then that person is not forced to follow through.
I honestly do not understand how you could disagree with that. Holding them at gunpoint to GM does not help anyone.
Me personally. I do not believe there is anythign that is cheese. I hate the word as what one person calls cheese someone else calls valid. I do not care what builds people use or don;t use. I am very allowing for character builds. If they want their fantasy to be X. I allow them even if it is questionable then I let them have their fantasy.
Now if your fantasy wrecks other peoples game including the DM or other players they have every right to not play with you if they so choose.
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@OP
A simple difficult terrain might be enough sometimes for example if you have it at your disposal. Now imagine how many other viable tactics are there?
The strength of spellcasters is usually in spells. Their best advantage is if they are prepared and buffed. Play NPCs actively, not passively where they forever sit in their rooms never responding to nearby fights if they can hear them. Much to your surprise, enemy spellcasters might live to cast a few more spells during combat.
The more you GM, the more answers will you find yourself for every situation. Heck, even a few dogs can be dangerous to PC's several levels above if presented in right position.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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^ ThisAlso, if all you're doing is running up to the BBEG and grappling to get the 'I win' condition, it's no different than if you were casting a persistent save or suck spell. Ask yourself if it's the most fun option for the entire table, not just yourself.
*casts mergy's magical mouth*
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.
Yup.
I have a character with a DC27 Magic Jar. I play around with it when fighting the mooks of a dungeon. When its time for the BBEG I jump back into my body, because it wouldn't be fun to just take control of the finale of the scenario and have them coup themselves.|
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Asking power gamers to self-nerf is an exercise in futility. Why do you think it takes months and months to balance each Starcraft expansion?
If a power gamer built a character, expect them to use. Because I know from experience, they are actually playing a war game in their head. I know this because I'm primarily a war gamer, and those are no-holds-barred.
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Yup.
I have a character with a DC27 Magic Jar. I play around with it when fighting the mooks of a dungeon. When its time for the BBEG I jump back into my body, because it wouldn't be fun to just take control of the finale of the scenario and have them coup themselves.
I hear this argument all the time, and I beg to differ.
Which is more interesting:
"The BBEG got hit with a sword and died, like has happened literally thousands of times"
or
"So, we met the BBEG, and I actually managed to magic jar him... I had him coup de gras himself! It was awesome."
Which are people more likely to mention as a "you wouldn't believe what happened the other day" anecdote?
If you have a cool schtick, use it - more importantly, if you're GMing someone with a cool schtick, let THEM use it.
Playing a fey bloodline sorcerer, it has been INCREDIBLY common for GMs to just flat-out refuse to let spells of mine work, because they would resolve the encounter in an "un-fun" way... several of these have been four-star GMs, incidentally (just the other day, a GM even gleefully admitted he'd had an enemy autosucceed versus my quickened DC 32 hold monster... wow, nice, thanks)
Guess what happened to every monster who was ever "saved" from my sorcerer by GM cheating - they got killed with a sword! Isn't that unique? I'm certainly happy the narrative could be so greatly strengthened by having them get Killed by a Sword, rather than suffocated, or transformed into my dominated minion. I'm not bitter, I assure you.
Bit of theory: when a game plays out, it forms a digraph of cause-and-effect linkages. This can be simple (GM-forced linear narrative) or complex (GM allows fully complex character interactions with game elements). Complex things are prettier, more interesting. The best play is always for players to PLAY, and for judges to JUDGE... when the players hold back, and the judges build walls, the game suffers.
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Yup.
I have a character with a DC27 Magic Jar. I play around with it when fighting the mooks of a dungeon. When its time for the BBEG I jump back into my body, because it wouldn't be fun to just take control of the finale of the scenario and have them coup themselves.I hear this argument all the time, and I beg to differ.
Which is more interesting:
"The BBEG got hit with a sword and died, like has happened literally thousands of times"
or
"So, we met the BBEG, and I actually managed to magic jar him... I had him coup de gras himself! It was awesome."
Which are people more likely to mention as a "you wouldn't believe what happened the other day" anecdote?
If you have a cool schtick, use it - more importantly, if you're GMing someone with a cool schtick, let THEM use it.
Playing a fey bloodline sorcerer, it has been INCREDIBLY common for GMs to just flat-out refuse to let spells of mine work, because they would resolve the encounter in an "un-fun" way... several of these have been four-star GMs, incidentally (just the other day, a GM even gleefully admitted he'd had an enemy autosucceed versus my quickened DC 32 hold monster... wow, nice, thanks)
Guess what happened to every monster who was ever "saved" from my sorcerer by GM cheating - they got killed with a sword! Isn't that unique? I'm certainly happy the narrative could be so greatly strengthened by having them get Killed by a Sword, rather than suffocated, or transformed into my dominated minion. I'm not bitter, I assure you.
Bit of theory: when a game plays out, it forms a digraph of cause-and-effect linkages. This can be simple (GM-forced linear narrative) or complex (GM allows fully complex character interactions with game elements). Complex things are prettier, more interesting. The best play is always for players to PLAY, and for judges to JUDGE... when the players hold back, and the judges build walls, the game suffers.
I roll monster saves in front of the players for this exact reason.
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As a DM, I generally don't care. If the PCs want to one-shot every encounter, that's fine by me. We'll finish sooner and I can move on to other things.
As a player, I avoid playing with hyper optimized characters, doubly so when they're run by players that don't seem to recognize that there are 3-5 other players at the table. Yes, your DC 40 save-or-lose spell is awesome but the rest of the table would like to play too.
This is one of the biggest reasons I don't play with random groups anymore. The older I get the more precious my free time is. I cannot justify spending 3-4 hours playing a game where I never get to actually play.
Getting 'killed by a sword' may be anti-climactic in your mind but at least when it happens that way more than one person gets to participate.
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@David Haller
I don't approve what your GM did, in fact he did something very wrong. He lost the trust of a player same moment when he did that. This should never be done, however, we are human beings. People talk like they know everything on internet, but in reality we make mistakes all the time. Including GM's, especially during the game.
But consider this, just for moment; You make characters which you love. You play games with them. You enjoy. Would it be fair to some degree for GM to enjoy as well?
I am not really ever gonna ask you not to use item, ability, spell, even if it's cheesy as some might call it (unless it's not working as intended per RAW or some other mechanical issue), but you should consider toning down your play in some games. Sometimes there is a rookie at table and your GM might feel uncomfortable to "step up" in gameplay that you expect, not because of you, but because of the others. This is the main issue to me as a GM at least.
It also helps your GM out if you prewarn them about your characters abilities. If the player told me that their DC for Slumber hex on level 2 witch is 13, I wouldn't give it much thought, but if they told me it's 20, I would be highly dubious and sceptical about your character being made properly.
The main thing is to communicate. If GM did something wrong, tell him after the game or immediately if it's really important.
P.S: Out of curiosity, how exactly did you reach DC of 32?
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Players are quite proficient at achieving legally high DCs when so motivated.
PFS is not really designed for GM enjoyment. As a GM, I'm handed a script of often poorly constructed NPCs to work with and then told by the author exactly how to use them. I just try to run error free and accept that most of the time, the NPCs are going to get mulched. I didn't write it, it's not my fault. If I did write them, you can best believe some of these tired schemes would run into some pitfalls.
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The problem with grapple is that the effective DC to get a grapple off increase faster than AC or monster saving throws. This makes grapple strong early and fairly weak later. To be an effective grappler later, your grapple has to be strong early on.
It also has, like the save or suck effects, a pretty strong cut off, grappled is a few penalties, pinned is completely screwed.
Keep in mind unlike the save or suck types with the right situation a grappler may require a couple of rounds to get it going (similar to a witch set up). Move to the target, which if its in a difficult location might involve a round or two. Grapple, survive the first round of attacks, and then move to pin.
Any good tactics (miss chance, mirror image, decoys, illusions) were great against grapplers just like other melee.
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One big thing to remember is that there is no master tactic. I have played in a scenario where the grappler in the party kept grabbing the enemies, and they promptly teleported across the room. The tetori is at heart a melee combatant, and the best counter to it is standard wizard shtick: Stay out of reach. Flying enemies or incorporial foes are fairly common in pfs, and either can balance a situation with a melee munchkin. As for spellcasting munchkins, I think I just saw a few posts where people were saying how hard it is to spellcast when grappled. What's good for the goose is fine for the gremlin.
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Maybe not master tactic, but I'd say easily 75% of BBEG just fail against a good grappler. Straight up owned.
And... that's different than against a good spellcaster? Straight up owned.
Happened during the game I ran on Saturday. 5 mooks went down in 2 rounds, leaving the BBEG vulnerable. +3 Will save, DC 18 Sleep, bad GM roll, pretty much end of battle.
The situation negated the Sleep after the first round, since they did damage, waking her up, but she was still at a disadvantage there, prone and empty-handed.
And there are definitely some grappleable enemies where grapple is a bad choice as to tactic.
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It's only different because most grapple checks from dedicated grapplers work on 2+ on a d20, whereas the BBEG has a much better shot (even if not great) against the save or suck. Fundamentally, you are correct, and so as long as casters have save or suck, grapplers should not be nerfed or discriminated against I think.
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I think if you have issuess with grappling monks trivilizing encounters you're going to have a lot more sadness as a GM later.
The good news is even well-speced grappling monks have fights they're going to have difficulty grappling (looking at those CMB 37 dragons that I've randomly had to face). They'll be able to keep up with most "normal" monsters (and certainly any spellcasters), but they have their own problem.
I've seen PFS Fire Oracles doing 100+ damage with DC 21 Reflex save @ level 8; I've seen archers that can snipe out dragons in 2 rounds (and rarely miss); and mountains of "Save or Suck casters". Each will cause far more games to break then your grapple-a-monk at high levels; low levels (especially early year) modules a multitude of options will break.
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As beautiful and handsome tetori, Bruno only worry when he is unbuffed and CMDs reach mid-to-upper 40s.
Bruno fears little...but Bruno still have fear.
Things Bruno fears:
-Stupid flying enemy and Bruno all out of fly potions.
-Stupid invisible enemy and Bruno have no elixir of spirit sight.
-Stupid monster that creates, or fights in, darkness.
-Stupid monster with reach...Bruno not worried about monster's grapple CMD, Bruno no want to eat huge AOO damage on way in. Bruno acrobatics skill much smaller than CMB.
-Stupid monster that full round attack Bruno in grapple--not only just because of damage but because of status effects like ability drain.
-Stupid caster who beats Bruno initiative (and potentially has mook meatshields). Worse yet, caster who knows party is coming and is readied.
-Stupid negative energy channeling clerics. Channel Energy is supernatural ability that can be used in grapple without provoking or concentration check. Quick Channel negative energy clerics are the worst...
-STUPID DUM DUM IDIOT INCORPOREAL MONSTERS WHO ARE DUM DUM STUPID IDIOT HEADS.
Big thing Bruno fears:
-Monsters will ignore Bruno and beat up pals. Bruno can only do so much. If busy grappling one (or two) monsters, other monsters free to hurt Bruno weaker friends.
hmmmmm...maybe Bruno have lots fear...