Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
With SKR leaving, I don't think we will see a change any time soon, If at all.
Which leaves this in a state where we know the intent, we know what the RAW is (so the ambiguous parts assume previous assumptions in the rules from other effects), and we must endure table variance.
Considering it isn't abundantly clear, each table will need to pick their interpretation of RAW and run with it.
Well, I wasn't going to use the PDT version anyway if I didn't like it, so it's no biggie for me. I'm going to employ the Scorching Ray mechanic in my own game, but as with so many other rules debates and stuff here, it's the other people I'm arguing for.
For me, it's for the people who play PFS or have GMs that aren't willing to change bad rules.
In my group, all of my GMs have turned to me for rules clarification or adjudication because I understand them better than they do. I advise them on the pros and cons of stuff and they tend to take my word for it if I change something on the fly.
So in my group, I won't have a problem with any change to Soundstriker (just as we all ignore the Crane Wing errata). Others don't have that luxury and it's for them that I entire the rules debate or clarify things. Cause, frankly, I hate arguing the rules as it almost always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth afterwards.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I won't have a problem with any change to Soundstriker (just as we all ignore the Crane Wing errata).
I hate arguing the rules as it almost always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth afterwards.
So I might ask why if you hate it and you appreciate GM's can make their own choice, when you are in thread with two sides working on different interpretations. Why can't you join in to say "both are valid, I go for this way in my home games for this reason. You choose." Why the need to say the other side isn't valid? Unless the side is saying 1st level human fighters with 10 STR using a Medium longsword in an antimagic field deal 1d12+9 damage.
So I might ask why if you hate it and you appreciate GM's can make their own choice, when you are in thread with two sides working on different interpretations. Why can't you join in to say "both are valid, I go for this way in my home games for this reason. You choose." Why the need to say the other side isn't valid? Unless the side is saying 1st level human fighters with 10 STR using a Medium longsword in an antimagic field deal 1d12+9 damage.I won't have a problem with any change to Soundstriker (just as we all ignore the Crane Wing errata).
I hate arguing the rules as it almost always leaves a bitter taste in my mouth afterwards.
Well for one, I argue for what I think is the right, or best, answer. Second, this is the first time I've seen where the designers didn't know what to do and asked us to, basically, crowd-design the errata. I don't think I ever said anyone's idea wasn't valid, other than the PDT proposal, but I know I've pointed out issues and problems with other proposals.
Like I said, I don't argue rules because I like to, I argue rules for the benefit of those who don't have the same freedoms I do. PFS GMs and players are supposed to play by the book, without any changes and minimal variation. So if the errata to Sound Striker comes out and it blows, then the PFS players will be stuck with it.
There are also GMs out there who are absolutely unbending on the rules and blindly accept any ruling Paizo issues as 100% correct or flawless.
I've only participated in a few big rules debates (not counting Monk threads) on this forum (Weird Words, Charm Person, and Crane Wing IIRC) but I'm not afraid of popping into a thread and answering someones question if it's something like, "Can I combine Vital Strike and Cleave?"
Other than that, I try to avoid the huge rules blow ups, they tend to turn nasty. This thread has, fortunately, been pretty good, I think, over all, especially when compared to some of the threads here.
Sooo...has something been done to officially fix weird words or not??? I don't see a FAQ on it. It is so unwieldy, complicated and overpowered(compared to what it replaces) i have voluntarily quit taking the archetype when i play bards(which is near always). This is quite unfortunate since the idea behind a sound striker is excellent. Why not just replace wordstrike and weird words with performances that buff your other attacks?? Something like a scaling bonus to the fort saves of sonic spells(replacing wordstrike) a second performance that adds scaling sonic damage to weapons and ammo the bard uses within 30'(replacing wordstrike). Confusion eliminated, rolls reduced, problems(all of them) solved!! Just decide the appropriate numbers.
I suggested something similar ages ago, but I don't think it was a popular idea.
People are still monitoring this thread, but I think the topic itself has been well and truly discussed out. At this point, anything we say on the subject is just going to be a re-hash of something we've already talked about.
People are still monitoring this thread, but I think the topic itself has been well and truly discussed out. At this point, anything we say on the subject is just going to be a re-hash of something we've already talked about.
And yet that hasn't stopped us from doing so anyways :P
I am still in the "scorching ray" camp myself, but I doubt we'll get any further errata on this for some time(till after Gen Con if ever). It seems like errata is often treated as a fire and forget weapon by the dev team if crane wing is any indication.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do keep in mind that, with Errata, they won't change it until the next printing of the books, which could be years from now.
So it may be that the Devs have already made errata for it, but they're just waiting for the next printing of Ultimate Magic to release it. Same thing with Crane Wing. If they decided the errata isn't working, they're likely going to wait until the next printing of Ultimate Combat to fix it.
My suggestion for fixing it would be thus :
Leave it as is, but clarify that the same target can be hit multiple times (still requires multiple rolls). Allow sonic resistance to stack with any DR that works against it. Make it one note per 3 bard levels, maximum 6 notes. That let's a 6th level bard hit 2 targets, or one target 2 times. That's 2d8+6/8/10 (depending on Charisma), with 2 attack rolls at 6th level. At 18th level, he has 6d8+24/30/36 (depending on charisma) with 6 attack rolls.
That's a useful ability, but it's not overpowered.
My suggestion for fixing it would be thus :
Leave it as is, but clarify that the same target can be hit multiple times (still requires multiple rolls). Allow sonic resistance to stack with any DR that works against it. Make it one note per 3 bard levels, maximum 6 notes. That let's a 6th level bard hit 2 targets, or one target 2 times. That's 2d8+6/8/10 (depending on Charisma), with 2 attack rolls at 6th level. At 18th level, he has 6d8+24/30/36 (depending on charisma) with 6 attack rolls.
That's a useful ability, but it's not overpowered.
Costing 1 round of performance for this attack? I would guess this would be a non-starter based on the Dev proposal.
Quoting it again for easy reference.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 1 ray of potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. Note: "Up to" means you can choose to fire fewer than the maximum number.
No target can be struck more than once.
Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance.
These are ranged touch attacks.
Each ray deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 10th, 14th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d8.
The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical weapons.
This performance replaces suggestion.
So what about a system that gives an attack every 3 levels after 6 (9, 12, 15, 18) that can be used to attack multiple people but can't single target and costs only 1 use of BP. However, the Sound Striker can spend additional uses of BP to focus more attacks onto a single person on a 1-1 ratio.
So a 12th level SS could fire 3 rays for 1 use of BP hitting 3 people, or he could fire 3 rays for 2 BP and target one person twice and another person once, or spend 3 BP and hit one person three times.
|
In a game I'm playing right now we've adjusted it as follows. Note that Word strike is removed completely. Also the "this ability can never be done faster than a standard action" rule still applies.
Weird Words (Su): At 1st level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with a magical ray of potent sound affecting one target (living or not) within 30 feet. The Bard may unleash an additional ray at levels 6, 12, 18 and 20. Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance. The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical ranged weapons for all purposes including feat choices, attacks of opportunity, and damage reduction.
The ray deals 1d6 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 3rd level the bard may choose to have the rays be cold iron or silver. At 9th level the bard may choose to have the rays be Adamantine. At 15th level the Bard may choose to give the rays the Holy or Unholy special ability depending on the Bard's alignment. Neutral Bards must choose one or the other, this choice occurs once and must always be that effect from then on. Finally at 20th level the damage increases to 1d8.
Weird Words ends all other Bardic Performances in effect by this Bard. Weird Words is an instantaneous effect and cannot be maintained, every round the Bard must begin the Performance again, ending all other performances. Multiple words may be used against the same target.
Due to the nature of the training required to use Weird Words, this ability replaces the following Bardic Performances: Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Greatness, Soothing Performance, and Mass Suggestion.
In play, this has worked MUCH BETTER than the PDT proposal. The archetype is much more focused (though losing Soothing Performance kind of sucked now that we're level 14). It builds like an archer bard except I don't need a bow and don't have to draw a weapon in a fight. That said, this bard isn't the suggestive type and loses out on some real goodness with inspire greatness gone too.
At first, I thought the damage would be too high, but in practice, the Wizard is still out damaging me by a lot as are the melee (Magus, Gunslinger and Barb), but it's great to do this then buff the rest of the turn (after level 7) so doing less damage isn't that big of a deal.
At this point, this is how I'm playing Sound Striker from now on, regardless of what the PDT says.
|
|
It dawned on me I should say why we went this way. There were a few core issues with the PDT proposal.
1. The big issue I've always had was there were a lot of dice to resolve. While the PDT version did reduce them, it still seemed like a lot of dice to roll (particularly attacks).
2. The PDT version was too expensive as an AOE and lackluster as a one off.
3. The best part of the original ability was its versatility. One round it could be an AOE the next, single target DPS. I wanted to bring that back without all the hassle and dice rolls and cost.
4. The higher level you go with the PDT proposal, the weaker the ability ended up feeling. This is mostly due to DR.
5. Being a VL, I've been noticing some variations that were not taken into account in the PDT version. Specifically people trying to use bardic feats to utilize the performance for free or trying to have feats like lingering Performance effect it. These were obviously not intended and I wanted to add wording to limit those things.
My GM retooled my original thought (which was much closer to scorching ray) and added the scaling material effect. We agreed adding Good or Evil while trying to increase the damage at level 15 was difficult, so we settled on Holy and Unholy. We're still considering whether to go with a typeless Bane instead. Meaning the player can choose which Bane every time they use it. We'll get to play testing that in a few weeks.
You replaced the PDT's ramping damage with ability to defeat DR. Is that better?
If your suggestion were pursued, I might suggest the following changes:
Add at 6th level that if the word targets only an object it can ignore half its hardness (all of it if it's subject to a shatter spell) - simulates wordstrike.
Bump to a d8 at 9th level.
Delay adamantine until 12th level.
Why should a bard shoot holy/unholy rays/sounds? I'd probably bump damage to a d10 at 15th, instead.
Bump to a d12 at 18th instead of the bump at 20th.
Since it costs 1 round/ray, I'd make it 1 ray/2 levels (max 10).
I'd bring back inspire greatness, since the original doesn't sacrifice it.
I really like your idea to replace both soundstriker powers with one versatile power.
My group has never gotten beyond using the semi-official PDT proposal, so my PC’s Weird Words ability hasn’t been used in months. I’m not sure if Wordstrike ever did get used although the idea that my PC can blow stuff up by uttering angry and obscene words amused people a bit. The idea sounds fun, but in practice I'd rate the PDT version of Sound Striker as one of the duller archetypes around.
@Neume - Is your version supposed to be a ranged touch attack or an attack on regular armor class?
|
|
You replaced the PDT's ramping damage with ability to defeat DR. Is that better?
With the rays able to hit the same target more than once the ramping damage isn't as nessecary. The addition of material types increases the ability effectiveness without increasing damage.
If your suggestion were pursued, I might suggest the following changes:
Add at 6th level that if the word targets only an object it can ignore half its hardness (all of it if it's subject to a shatter spell) - simulates wordstrike.
Bump to a d8 at 9th level.
Delay adamantine until 12th level.
Other effects intentionally don't happen at those levels because the number of rays is increasing. Ignoring hardness is exactly what adamantine does... If we're giving the ability properties of adamantine prior to giving it adamantine and then delaying adamantine, what's the point? By 5th level most melee characters are already using adamantine magical weapons. I don't see the reasoning here.
Why should a bard shoot holy/unholy rays/sounds? I'd probably bump damage to a d10 at 15th, instead.
Bump to a d12 at 18th instead of the bump at 20th.
Since it costs 1 round/ray, I'd make it 1 ray/2 levels (max 10).
See the revampes ability below. My GM and I are increasing actual damage so the holy thing is gone. These will just not be effective against alignment DRs. I think that is the side effect of increasing the damage but not the special materials. In reality this means the ability is not used (or pointless) against targets with alignment DR, but I think that should be fine since the ability isn't intended to replace everything the bard does. By the time this becomes a real issue, the bard should have a lot of other options.
As for additional rays, I've never really come across a point where that many rays were needed. At least not for the cost. Other spells (like Soundburst) were much more effective. The point of this ability is not to replace the bard's spells but to supplement their abilities. That's another consideration to take when increasing damage.
Also, damage is based on how damage is typically increased. So the next step up from 1d8 isn't 1d10 it's 2d6.
From the Bestiary:
Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.
.
I'd bring back inspire greatness, since the original doesn't sacrifice it.
While the original may not sacrifice it, this ability is clearly more powerful than the original, hence the trade off.
Updated ability below.
Weird Words (Su): At 1st level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with a magical ray of potent sound affecting one target (living or not) within 30 feet. The Bard may unleash an additional ray at levels 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20. Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance. The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical ranged weapons for all purposes including feat choices, attacks of opportunity, and damage reduction.
The ray deals 1d6 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 3rd level the bard may choose to have the rays be cold iron or silver. At 7th level the bard may choose to have the rays be Adamantine. At 11th level the damage increases to 1d8. At 15th level the damage increases to 2d6. At 19th level the damage increases to 3d6.
Finally at 20th level if the target takes 50% or more of its total hp in damage from this ability (multiple rays included), then it must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). If a target's saving throw succeeds, then the target is stunned for a number of rounds equal to the number of rays it was hit with. If the saving throw fails, then the target dies. Objects and targets not effected by spells and abilities that use Fort saves, or targets immune to death effects are immune to both the stun and death effects but not the damage.
Weird Words ends all other Bardic Performances in effect by this Bard. Weird Words is an instantaneous effect and cannot be maintained. Every round the Bard must begin the Performance again, ending all other performances. The Bard may begin another performance in the same round as the bard used weird words if the Bard has enough actions and rounds of performance left. Multiple words may be used against the same target.
Due to the nature of the training required to use Weird Words, this ability replaces the following Bardic Performances: Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Greateness, Soothing Performance, Mass Suggestion and Deadly Performance.
I guess I was trying to imitate the progression from the original two powers with the hardness halving then later adamantine - this becomes a great vehicle for blowing down dungeon doors (or portcullis) as soon as it's adamantine. A sonic bolt-cutter if you will...I'm concerned at the power of this to blow away troublesome magic items your opponent is using.
I agree with losing an additional performance if you bring back damage ramp, and give ability to bypass DR. I also agree with slower number of notes, in this case, as well.
Most rays seem to point out that they require a ranged touch attack to hit. It seems like it "should be obvious" even without stating it, but some would say the same about the ability to target a single creature with multiple rays/words/missiles. I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd better ask. This thread makes it clear that assumptions about such stuff can lead to a lot of trouble.
|
|
I guess I was trying to imitate the progression from the original two powers with the hardness halving then later adamantine - this becomes a great vehicle for blowing down dungeon doors (or portcullis) as soon as it's adamantine. A sonic bolt-cutter if you will...I'm concerned at the power of this to blow away troublesome magic items your opponent is using.
Good point. I've adjusted it.
Most rays seem to point out that they require a ranged touch attack to hit. It seems like it "should be obvious" even without stating it, but some would say the same about the ability to target a single creature with multiple rays/words/missiles. I wasn't sure, so I figured I'd better ask. This thread makes it clear that assumptions about such stuff can lead to a lot of trouble.
Good call, added it back in.
Another adjustment was made, the 3d6 damage at 19 was just too high. My GM and I have been using Deadly Finale and Greater Shout as damage benchmarks. Very clearly 18d6 to one target is the most powerful thing the bard can do and it would trump all other bard abilities. With the added death effect at 20 makes this the end all be all ability.
That said, reduced to 2d6 sonic damage and this gives the bard a lot of choices as far as damage goes. She can use 6 rounds of her many rounds of BP to deal 2d6+CHA to her choice of targets -- this isn't as strong as 10d6 that Greater Shout has, nor will it stun or deafen the target; it also will deal about the same amount of damage (maybe a little more) as Deadly Finale but will not cause bleeding to the targets for 6 rounds, but it is an effective choice if the bard is out of spells. Or, she could send 12d6 to one target with an added death effect this is a good choice over Shouting at one person. Theoretically that's 8 about rounds of great single target damage.
So the damage was reduced to 2d6 max, that said, now at 19 it gains the ability to be sonic (with the caveat that it is now effected by SR).
Edit: One other change to the death effect at 20 was the fact that it only stuns for 1 round instead of rounds based on the number of rays hit. Also, the death effect can only work once. So if the target saves they are immune to the effect for 24 hours.
Weird Words (Su): At 1st level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with a magical ray of potent sound affecting one target (living or not) within 30 feet. This is a ranged touch attack.
The Bard may unleash an additional ray at levels 5, 9, 13, 17 and 20. Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance. The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical ranged weapons for all purposes including feat choices, attacks of opportunity, and damage reduction.
The ray deals 1d6 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 3rd level the bard may choose to have the rays be cold iron or silver. At 7th level the damage increases to 1d8. At 11th level the bard may choose to have the rays be Adamantine. At 15th level the damage increases to 2d6. At 19th level the Bard may choose to have the damage be sonic. If this choice is made, this ability is effected by spell resistance.
Finally at 20th level if the target takes 50% or more of its total hp in damage from this ability (multiple rays included), then it must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). If a target's saving throw succeeds, then the target is stunned for 1 round and cannot be effected by this death effect again for 24 hours (they can still take damage from the ability though). If the saving throw fails, then the target dies. Objects and targets not effected by spells and abilities that use Fort saves, or targets immune to death effects are immune to both the stun and death effects but not the damage.
Weird Words ends all other Bardic Performances in effect by this Bard. Weird Words is an instantaneous effect and cannot be maintained. Every round the Bard must begin the Performance again, ending all other performances. The Bard may begin another performance in the same round as the bard used weird words if the Bard has enough actions and rounds of performance left. Multiple words may be used against the same target.
Due to the nature of the training required to use Weird Words, this ability replaces the following Bardic Performances: Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Greateness, Soothing Performance, Mass Suggestion and Deadly Performance.
Deafening Song Bolt seems like a pretty strong ranged touch damage spell for high level Bards. Maybe that could give you another benchmark to measure against.
You may want to call out that lingering performance doesn't work, or people could think the stun could be extended, no?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder if Sound Striker will be an archetype that gets 'unchained'?
I've been listening to this video for years, and now all of a sudden it hit me: Celtic Sound Strike. Just wade into battle with a set of pipes and a kilt.
Most people don't enjoy my appreciation of the bagpipes, so I guess pipe music would qualify as 'Weird Words' for them huh? :P
The game where I was playing a Sound Striker has recently ended. After several months we ended up reaching 17th level, but the PDT version of Weird Words never got used again.
@Tels - I think bagpipes are pretty cool.
I think SKR's revision on page 8 is perfect. Makes the ability worth something at higher levels without requiring 20 rolls.
Try running it in an encounter before you say that. It's really nothing worth mentioning at all.
|
I think SKR's revision on page 8 is perfect. Makes the ability worth something at higher levels without requiring 20 rolls.Try running it in an encounter before you say that. It's really nothing worth mentioning at all.
Against a lone target, probably not, but being able to hit up to 10 guys for 4d8+Cha each and still move, does at least give you something to do when your other spells aren't helpful or used up.
Against a lone target, probably not, but being able to hit up to 10 guys for 4d8+Cha each and still move, does at least give you something to do when your other spells aren't helpful or used up.I think SKR's revision on page 8 is perfect. Makes the ability worth something at higher levels without requiring 20 rolls.Try running it in an encounter before you say that. It's really nothing worth mentioning at all.
Sure. Hitting each of those guys with 150-300 HP for ~25 points of damage is a great move.
I'm surprised to see that we're discussing options again. Making the ability work a lot like Scorching Ray would provide built in balance against an existing and rather ubiquitous game element (Scorching Ray). I'd offer 3 rays spaced out over a few levels. You could go with 6/8/10, 6/9/12, or maybe even 3/7/11 if the first ray replaced the pointless Wordstrike. The final option would scale just like Scorching Ray. I personally prefer 1d8+Cha for the damage, and that shouldn't far exceed Scorching Ray's 4d6 unless the Bard's Charisma is well over 30 (in which case you'll have other problems with saving throw DCs and such)
The damage might seem a little low, but if you throw on Arcane Strike and Discordant Voice it should scale pretty well. Physical damage plus Clustered Shots would probably be stronger than sonic damage overall since the latter can easily be shut down with Resist Energy. That said, sonic is certainly thematic for a Sound Striker. It would be useful in a wide variety of fights without a heavy feat investment, and it might help appease concerns that the power would be too strong if it wasn't subject to energy resistance like Scorching Ray.
I think SKR's revision on page 8 is perfect. Makes the ability worth something at higher levels without requiring 20 rolls.Try running it in an encounter before you say that. It's really nothing worth mentioning at all.
Well, most agree that Weird Words is unbalanced, at least as most have been interpreting it. It's too cheap for its effect and it's way, way too powerful as a replacement for "Suggestion" (a mediocre power at best). In addition the mechanics of multiple attacks and multiple saves is about the stupidest spell design I have ever seen.
Sean K Reynolds seems to agree, but I find his fix a bit too restrictive on the Bard. He limits the targeting and increases the cost. He eliminated the save, but his suggestion still seems too limiting to me. I do like him adding the scaled damage so the ability continues to have utility at higher levels.
Here is my suggested fix which I plan to impose on games I run unless someone talks me out of it.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 1 potent word per bard level (maximum 10) at targets within 30 feet. Note: "Up to" means you can choose to fire fewer than the maximum number. Each individual weird word expends 1 round of bardic performance.
These are ranged touch attacks. The Bard makes one attack roll which applies to all targets. There is no save.
Each weird word deals damage equal to the bard’s Charisma bonus plus d8 per weird word aimed at that target. The Charisma bonus damage is only added once per target no matter how many words are directed at the target. The Words count as magical weapons and the bard chooses whether the damage is treated as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. The bard may designate the type of damage differently for each target. DR applies.
At 10th, 14th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d8 per word.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Suggestion is a bad mechanic, in combat. But Suggestion is an extremely powerful mechanic in non-combat situations.
It's basically a one-order dominate. You give an order (or 'suggestion') and they will try and go through with it within their time limit.
"I'm your best friend and you should give me a discount on gear."
"You really need to leave your post and use the restroom."
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."
"Move along, move along."
The ability to implant a 'suggestion' for free is one that can really impact a non-combat encounter. What sound striker does for the bard, is makes him less of a social power house.
Suggestion is a bad mechanic, in combat. But Suggestion is an extremely powerful mechanic in non-combat situations.
It's basically a one-order dominate. You give an order (or 'suggestion') and they will try and go through with it within their time limit.
"I'm your best friend and you should give me a discount on gear."
"You really need to leave your post and use the restroom."
"These aren't the droids you're looking for."
"Move along, move along."
The ability to implant a 'suggestion' for free is one that can really impact a non-combat encounter. What sound striker does for the bard, is makes him less of a social power house.
Provided your GM lets it be so powerful. One could achieve similar results on a Diplomacy or other related check as well.
The reason some of us like the concept of the sound striker is because we wish to have a character who can do what we saw in "Dune" with the Weirding Way. If I have to give up suggestion, then so be it. But I want to blast something with sound and blast it pretty good. I don't mind SKR's fix too much, aside from the one per target (if the target is huge or bigger, why could it not be struck more than once?) and not allowing Vital Strike to apply if we are doing NOTHING ELSE in that turn except blasting one target once.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Well, most agree that Weird Words is unbalanced, at least as most have been interpreting it.
Fun times! I play a PVP competition every year at GenCon and this year I played a Sound Striker Bard using the "all on one" interpretation as set out by the GM of the competition. I won.
I never took a single point of damage and never failed a save (AC 40 Touch AC 34, saves Fort +28, Ref +38, Will +33) due to Cha to AC/CMD/all saves (Nerid's Grace/Bestow Grace.)From what I could tell of the other 11 entrances, the only one that out did me in damage is a Named Bullet Gunslinger and that was only by a small margin.
10x 1d8+18 attacks is devastation. Strips 10 mirror images quickly and outright kills pretty much every person who entered whether or not they made their save. For reference, I missed only one attack when attacking. Touch AC is hard to optimize and I had +18 to hit.
If there was any doubt the ability needs changed, then I can demonstrate to you how there should be. ;-)
|
Well, most agree that Weird Words is unbalanced, at least as most have been interpreting it.Fun times! I play a PVP competition every year at GenCon and this year I played a Sound Striker Bard using the "all on one" interpretation as set out by the GM of the competition. I won.
I never took a single point of damage and never failed a save (AC 40 Touch AC 34, saves Fort +28, Ref +38, Will +33) due to Cha to AC/CMD/all saves (Nerid's Grace/Bestow Grace.)From what I could tell of the other 11 entrances, the only one that out did me in damage is a Named Bullet Gunslinger and that was only by a small margin.
10x 1d8+18 attacks is devastation. Strips 10 mirror images quickly and outright kills pretty much every person who entered whether or not they made their save. For reference, I missed only one attack when attacking. Touch AC is hard to optimize and I had +18 to hit.
If there was any doubt the ability needs changed, then I can demonstrate to you how there should be. ;-)
James, I suspect that the results of the competition would have been vastly different without the use of the Nereid's Grace/Bestow Grace combo. +18 to most everything defensive? All you would need with it is a Ring of Evasion, and your damage from spells would drop to just about nil.
At that level, with an AC of 22, Touch AC of 16, saves Fort +10, Ref +20, Will +15, your PC would have been missing saves, and probably found out that there are plenty of things that could take you out in one "shot", as well. How much does a Disintegrate at that level do if you make the save?
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
At that level, with an AC of 22, Touch AC of 16, saves Fort +10, Ref +20, Will +15, your PC would have been missing saves, and probably found out that there are plenty of things that could take you out in one "shot", as well. How much does a Disintegrate at that level do if you make the save?
I didn't make this clear, but I play in this competition every year for 7 years straight. The person hosting it has ran it I think 15 years now.
You pretty much don't bother doing a guy if you can't get saves on Fort to +18 or more and Will to +18 or more. I had a ring of evasion so I didn't plan on taking damage from Reflex save for half.
It is a 12th level thing, so you get all effects up to 6th level spells. You also wouldn't ever use Disentigrate. It is save or take 17.5 damage. You must assume they are going to make every save, or you risk just outright dying. The wizard/witch team had a save DC of 32 for their confusion spell. That is typically about a 50% chance to fail in the competition.
The teams this year (as I remember them):
Wizard/Gunslinger with minimum +23 initiative modifier (uses Named Bullet to do 200+ damage average on a touch attack)
Wizard/Witch with DC 32 Confusion spell (uses Cloak of Dreams if you charge with DC 30)
Monk/Something (no idea because they died to Gunslinger before they even got their turn in initiative)
Wizard/Summoner (I didn't see much they did)
Druid/Barbarian (Both Wild Shape deal 100+ damage a hit)
Although I think Bestow Grace was technically illegal due to the restriction on alignment-dependent spells and effects.
What class levels did you he's to pull that off? Those spells aren't on the bard's spell list.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
What class levels did you he's to pull that off? Those spells aren't on the bard's spell list.
Level 10 Magician Bard, Level 1 Oracle (CHA to CMD/Reflex), Level 1 Mindchemist Alchemist (Cognagen)
Also my UMD was +35 so I'd make any check from anything on the UMD chart on a 1.Although I think Bestow Grace was technically illegal due to the restriction on alignment-dependent spells and effects.
It passed audit, but if it were an issues the easiest fix is to switch the build to be 2 levels of Paladin (for their level 2 ability.) I'd lose CHA to CMD and +2 to saves/damage (due to no cognagen.) It wouldn't have materially changed the build too much.
The key point is this ability is simply too strong if interpreted the way most interpret it.
Bestow Grace isn't an arcane spell, so I'm assuming you had a potion or wand of it.