Weird Words substitutes/replaces the suggestion bardic performance but it does not change how bardic performances overall are started/maintained and its relevant upgrades and restrictions.
A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.
Wordstrike (Su): At 3rd level, the sound striker bard can spend 1 round of bardic performance as a standard action to direct a burst of sonically charged words at a creature or object. This performance deals 1d4 points of damage plus the bard’s level to an object, or half this damage to a living creature.
This performance replaces inspire competence.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word.
This performance replaces suggestion.
Emphasis mine.
However, this doesn't restrict a Sound Striker from using Weird Words as a Standard, then re-starting Inspire Courage as a move or swift action at 7th and 13th level respectively.
@Tels
Huh. Well, I'll be damned. I cannot believe I missed that part the first time I read the archetype. Oh well, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm o.k. with that, :)
Luckily, as you mentioned, the sound striker can start the Weird Words as a standard action first, and then move onto the next desired bardic performance.
Anyhow, hopefully more people can provide feedback on how well the proposed changes by the Paizo Design Team fares in actual playtest. If I am lucky, I should have some playtest feedback by the end of the month when my group meets up again.
CB out.
Some of us feel that it looks like RAW Bards should only be able to use 1 bardic performance each round, but there isn’t general consensus regarding that here on the message boards. In fact, there is a separate FAQ request regarding whether you can use up to 3 bardic performances per round at 13th level or just one.
I guess these sorts of questions were always out there but became more compelling once a few bardic performances which inflict damage appeared. Thunder Call is either a fairly strong ability once per round or a madcap 3 times per round damage and debuff extravaganza. Obviously Weird Words has some language restricting it to being started as a standard action, but allowing it to be started as a move or swift action like most other bardic performances would lower the action economy cost enough to make the PDT version of the power a fun option in a “1 performance per round” world. It might push it over the top when attacking multiple foes in a “3 performance per round” world though. Allowing a Fort save could mitigate the damage potential, but rolling Fort saves probably becomes annoying at somewhere closer to 3 than 30 times.
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@Neume, according to page 35 of the Core Rulebook (6th Edition), it states that "Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time."
One paragraph up from that it says (emphasis mine):
A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any ONE of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
I've always taken that to mean, a bard can only do ONE performance a round without some other effect allowing for more.
Maybe the rules should refer to turns rather than rounds, but how many bardic performances can be used per round is probably a FAQ for another thread. In the meantime, my Kingmaker group had another session on Thursday, and Weird Words actually got used!
Playtest Experience - I was pretty pleased to use Weird Words come into play since “deadly words” fits well with the RP aspect of the PC in question, but honestly I used the ability mostly because the battle was effectively over and I thought it might be amusing, not because it seemed like the most effective option available. We were basically just messing with a dozen mooks left over after we killed their boss. While I was using Weird Words other players were spending their turns on stuff like Grease to make mooks slip and fall or using Open/Close to shut doors the mooks had opened in their attempt to flee. It was a hoot, but we were clearly in “mopping up” mode.
Anyhow, while the DM insisted Weird Words was pretty good since it did about 150 total damage against 9 mooks the other players didn’t seem overly impressed. One was amused since my PC was killing enemies by cussing at them (though he can already do that with Blistering Invective). The other thought it seemed like a waste of 9 rounds of bardic performance and wandered into an adjacent room to iron a shirt while the DM and I sorted out the results of how my 27 die rolls (9d20, 9d8, and 9d6 from discordant voice) translated into damage against 9 of the remaining 10 mooks. There were a lot of questions about whether the damage I rolled for each attack applied to “this mook” or “that mook”. People had to get up and point at minis, mark stuff on the battle mat, etc. That’s fine if the difference is that one target is stunned and the other isn’t, but here the difference was more like one took 17 damage and the other took 19. It seems like a lot of bookkeeping for little reason.
The round after I used Weird Words was marked by various mooks making saving throws or nearly hitting PCs due to Dirge of Doom not being active. My PC had to move to get within 30 feet of all the mooks, so the question of whether he could have used Weird Words as a standard action and then resume DoD as a move action didn’t come up. I’d assume that we’d say “no” for our game pending FAQ guidance. The lack of debuffing didn’t make any real difference in our just for laughs battle with hapless mooks, but it might have been dangerous against more challenging foes.
The next round my PC got a little more direct damage bang for his action economy buck by casting Intensified Thundering Drums. We all liked the relative ease of single roll for damage followed by saving throws the DM could do all on his own without lots of talking, pointing at minis, etc. ITD is a 3rd level spell for my PC due to a trait, and any Bard can cast it that way with a cheap metamagic rod. The spell seemed a little “better” than Weird Words, but I’m not really sure how to compare a 3rd level spell to 9 rounds of bardic performance. It seems like Inspire Courage is almost as good as Good Hope, which is a 3rd level spell. Dirge of Doom is arguably better than Crushing Despair, which is also 3rd level. Of course they need to be maintained round by round, unlike damage, which won’t disappear when you stop performing.
Further Reflections - If Weird Words is for mopping up maybe the resource cost could be lower. I’d also prefer to see fewer attacks on fewer targets. Maybe Weird Words could be split up into fewer Words. Each Word would still cost 1 round of BP and still affect 1 target, but maybe the damage could scale a little faster like:
6th level = 1 word for 2d8+Cha
8th level = 2 words for 3d8+Cha
10th level = 3 words for 4d8+Cha
Another option could be to add weapon special abilities to the Weird Words as you level up, like
6th level = +1 weapon
8th level = +2 weapon
10th level = +3 weapon
12th level = +4 weapon
14th level = +5 weapon
You’d get 1 Word per “plus” and could spend any “plusses” beyond +1 on some special abilities to help you enhance damage and beat DR. For instance, a 10th level Sound Striker could shoot +1 holy Words for 1d8+Cha+1+2d6. The damage would probably be pretty similar to the PDT version, but it would be more versatile against DR. I'm not all worked up about either of those proposals or eager to shove them down anybody's throat. I'm just throwing up whatever ideas I have since a solution which makes everybody (or even anybody) happy seems tough to find.
In related news, we’re about to reach 14th level, which means Bard 10 for my PC. He’ll almost certainly be learning the Sonic Thrust spell and tossing arrows. The potential damage output with buffs looks pretty dramatic. I suspect it will function a little more smoothly than Weird Words since the attacks are on regular AC and will probably end up concentrated on 1 or 2 foes. Given my PC's high Charisma and attack buffing abilities I suspect the DM will feel like these "might as well" be touch attacks.
About what I expected to be honest Devilkiller. 150 damage across 9 enemies (roughly 17 damage each) that were so weak compared to the party you could institute Loony Tunes type shenanigans on them.
Could have done far more damage with just wand of Fireball in this situation.
I'm more concerned with the 27 dice.
No effect should have that many dice to resolve.
It just makes the ability something both the player and GM dread.
To be fair, part of that is Discordant Voice, but even without it, it's still 18 dice that have to be rolled. Not only that, they have to be rolled 1 after the other because each hit is different.
Gonna quote the PDT proposal as the last posting of it is 4 pages ago.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with up to 1 ray of potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. Note: "Up to" means you can choose to fire fewer than the maximum number.
No target can be struck more than once.
Each ray expends 1 round of bardic performance.
These are ranged touch attacks.
Each ray deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus. At 10th, 14th, and 18th level, the damage increases by 1d8.
The bard chooses what type of damage each ray deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing). These rays count as magical weapons.
This performance replaces suggestion.
So, lets go over the rolls possible.
6th level: 6d20 + 6d8 = 12 dice rolls
7th level : 7d20 + 7d8 = 14 dice rolls
8th level : 8d20 + 8d8 = 16 dice rolls
9th level : 9d20 + 9d8 = 18 dice rolls
10th level - 13th level : 10d20 + 20d8 = 30 dice rolls
14th level - 17th level : 10d20 + 30d8 = 40 dice rolls
18th level - 20th level : 10d20 + 40d8 = 50 dice rolls
Granted, one could roll a d20 and a d8 at the same time (or d20+2d8, 2d0+3d8, 2d0+4d8) but it is still an obscenely large amount of dice being rolled.
The original Weird Words had, at most, 30 rolls involved. D20 for the attack, D20 for the save, d8 for the damage.
Toss on Discordant sound and you add up to 10 extra dice rolls, for a minimum of 18 dice and a maximum of 70 dice being rolled. For a single standard action.
The bard at 20th level using Prayer, Shadowbard (for Inspire Courage [+4 damage]), Arcane Strike (+5 damage), Prayer (+1 damage), Good Hope (+2 damage) and a +4 Courageous weapon (adds another +2 damage from Good Hope) could, potentially deal 4d8 + 14 (Charisma [36 +2 profane from succubus]) + 4 (Inspire) + 5 (AS) + 1 (Prayer) + 4 (Good Hope + Couragesou) + 1d6 damage on a single attack. This averages out to roughly 50 points of damage per person with a minimum of 33 and a maximum of 66. Granted, since each sound is a ray, there is also the possibility of crits in there.
50 points of damage would be a lot... 10 levels ago. As it stand, when your monsters are sitting on 400+ HP with DR of 10+ (some even with DR 20). You could potentially do 500 points of damage (on average and before DR) across 10 opponents, but it also costs 10 rounds of bardic performance.
The cost vs. effect of the proposed Weird Words is just not worth it.
Yeah, I think it was hitting 9 different targets with 9 different damage totals which made the power cumbersome. There are plenty of other abilities which require a lot of dice to be rolled, but often they inflict serious damage on a single foe or do something else so dramatic that the players don’t mind waiting quite as much. I think/hope that will be the case in another session or two when my PC gains 4th level spells and learns Sonic Thrust so he can launch up to 10 arrows at any foe in his general vicinity using Charisma instead of Dexterity for his attack bonus. I’ve probably read Sonic Thrust and Telekinesis about 4-5 times each by now searching for any words like “each” which might imply that using all the attacks on one target is prohibited. I guess I’ll start a separate thread on that.
As things stand with PDT’s proposal, my PC should be able to attack with Weird Words and Sonic Thrust the same number of times per day since he’ll have 30 rounds of bardic performance and 3 slots for 4th level spells. In another level or two ST will leave WW in the dust with 40 and 50 attacks per day vs and 34. Sure, that would be all of my 4th level spell slots, but WW would use up all of my bardic performances too, and I could always craft a wand of ST. That's not to say that Weird Words should be just as good as Sonic Thrust, just that there will be even less reason to use it now.
We played again last night, but Weird Words didn’t quite get used during our 3 encounters. The first encounter was against a couple of hapless melee goons who never managed to hit us. Ironically, part of the problem in the other two encounters was the fact that I might have missed touch AC. I’ll try to keep the details vague, but you might be able to infer some info about Kingmaker from them:
At a DPR of 7 per foe in the second fight Weird Words might have been worthwhile for 1 round of bardic performance or even a few, but at 8 rounds of BP per use I would have run out of BP before the foes ran out of HP. Meanwhile the foes in that fight weren’t really enough of a threat to waste more resources on. The ones in the third fight would have been very tough to hit reliably, and we really needed to deal with their boss since he had a touch attack that was causing real problems..
That many enemies with a decent - high touch AC? That is rather odd... It's kind of the exception though.
Yeah, I'm not saying it is a typical situation, just reporting what happens game to game to add a tiny bit of playtest data. As an aside, since the Kingmaker AP is somewhat infamous for "short work days" I'd think it would be close to a best case for a "nova" ability like the current PDT version of Weird Words.
We'll be gaining a level once the DM sends out XP, so my PC's Weird Words damage will increase to 2d8+8+1d6. If the range were a little longer it might save him from needing to whip out his bow once in a while. As is I expect the power will continue to see only infrequent use. That said, it wasn't very expensive to get, and a slightly underpowered ability seems better for the game than an overpowered ability. I think several tweaks could be made from minor to major, but there are already dozens of posts on those ideas.
How would Vital Strike interact with Weird Words? If it were possible to use the two in together, would you roll double dice on all Weird Word attacks, or just the first one? If Vital strike and Improved Vital Strike could be used with the current proposal, it would be interesting, but still rather lack luster.
Vital Strike can't interact with Weird Words as Vital Strike takes a specific standard action that excludes other standard actions like the one required to use Weird Words.
I know it doesn't work normally, that's why I asked "If it were possible" perhaps as a change to the proposal. It was just a thought to see if any alternative methods of improving the proposal could come about.
Yeah, I don't think these two can work together. In unrelated news, this week saw another session where Weird Words didn't get used, but there was only one encounter I can recall which wasn't mass combat, and it only had a single foe.
We played again Thursday evening, and finally Weird Words had kind of a breakout session. It got used for some “mook mopping” again in a fight with some hopelessly overmatched hill giants, but it also finally got used in a challenging fight where it ended up being the best option.
Playtest Details:
Our party of three 14th level PCs got ambushed by a CR16 ancient black dragon. Fortunately, our Inquisitor was able to cast Communal Protection from Acid. My PC’s melee attack bonus with buffs and flank was +33, but my attacks were all missing since I couldn’t seem to roll above a 6 and the dragon’s AC with Mage Armor and Combat Expertise was 48, meaning I needed a 15 on the d20, kind of a tough target for the rolling impaired. The fact our Inquisitor was down to just 1 HP meant I was about to lose flank too. The other PCs had been doing a lot of damage to the dragon, so I decided that hitting more consistently with Weird Words could help finish the beast off. As it turned out, only one Word was needed since I rolled a nat 20 and then easily confirmed the crit with a roll of just 10 on the d20 against the dragon’s pathetic touch AC of 14 (8 plus 6 for Combat Expertise). The total damage ended up in the low 70s, and the dragon dropped. With a nat 20 my sword would have hit for an average of 45 damage, but the confirmation roll would have failed, and the dragon would have survived and almost assuredly killed the Inquisitor and possibly my PC’s mount as well.
Reflections After the Fact:
Touch attacks are a very powerful against high AC monsters and PCs (some might argue too powerful). In this particular case Scorching Ray would have been kind of a bad fit since the dragon’s SR of 27 would be tough to overcome with a CL11 wand or my PC’s own CL of just 10. My PC’s Weird Word was quite effective, but upon further reflection I realized that a pepperbox or some double-barreled pistols could have easily done even more damage, potentially way more, like the 140-220 range. I think that’s probably a problem with guns rather than Weird Words, but it is still kind of troubling since even early firearms seem to be a mechanically superior choice compared to using the Sound Striker’s class abilities despite the fact my PC has no levels in Gunslinger and no feats to support firearm use.
Touch attacks which also bypass SR are alarmingly effective. It reminds me a little of the old 3.5 days with the Orb spells, which made many a GM groan. Obviously there’s always Acid Arrow, but the damage and rate of fire on that is low enough that it kind of flies under the radar. The fact it is energy damage also makes it significantly easier to defend against than physical attacks since energy resistances are pretty common and available via spells while DR can be bypassed in various ways (Smite Evil, Clustered Shots, various Inquisitor abilities, Align Weapon, +5 gun, etc)
We played again Thursday evening, and finally Weird Words had kind of a breakout session. It got used for some “mook mopping” again in a fight with some hopelessly overmatched hill giants, but it also finally got used in a challenging fight where it ended up being the best option.
Playtest Details:
Our party of three 14th level PCs got ambushed by a CR16 ancient black dragon. Fortunately, our Inquisitor was able to cast Communal Protection from Acid. My PC’s melee attack bonus with buffs and flank was +33, but my attacks were all missing since I couldn’t seem to roll above a 6 and the dragon’s AC with Mage Armor and Combat Expertise was 48, meaning I needed a 15 on the d20, kind of a tough target for the rolling impaired. The fact our Inquisitor was down to just 1 HP meant I was about to lose flank too. The other PCs had been doing a lot of damage to the dragon, so I decided that hitting more consistently with Weird Words could help finish the beast off. As it turned out, only one Word was needed since I rolled a nat 20 and then easily confirmed the crit with a roll of just 10 on the d20 against the dragon’s pathetic touch AC of 14 (8 plus 6 for Combat Expertise). The total damage ended up in the low 70s, and the dragon dropped. With a nat 20 my sword would have hit for an average of 45 damage, but the confirmation roll would have failed, and the dragon would have survived and almost assuredly killed the Inquisitor and possibly my PC’s mount as well.Reflections After the Fact:
Touch attacks are a very powerful against high AC monsters and PCs (some might argue too powerful). In this particular case Scorching Ray would have been kind of a bad fit since the dragon’s SR of 27 would be tough to overcome with a CL11 wand or my PC’s own CL of just 10. My PC’s Weird Word was quite effective, but upon further reflection I realized that a pepperbox or some double-barreled pistols could have easily done even more damage, potentially way more, like the 140-220 range. I think that’s probably a problem with guns...
I don't recall, did SKR/PDT clarify if Weird Words bypass DR/Magic? Because if it doesn't, Dragons have DR/Magic which should have been accounted for.
Yes, SKR clarified that Weird Words beat DR/magic with a post in this very thread: LINK
Yeah, I'd like to see an answer on this one as well. Call it a final parting gift from SKR. =)
This is the first time I’ve heard the news that SKR is leaving Paizo. I wish him well with whatever other opportunities he’s pursuing.
I’m not sure if Paizo is still considering the matter of Weird Words or not. It is a pretty niche ability after all, and the current PDT proposed rules are playable if perhaps not everybody’s favorite. It would be nice to see some confirmation one way or the other if only to put the matter to rest.
In the continuing saga of my own Weird Words experience, two more sessions have passed without another Weird Word, but the details on that include some potential...
We’ve recently infiltrated the enemy palace. Encounters with literally dozens of mooks might have made PDT Weird Words a pretty sweet go to power if it cost 1 round of BP per outburst. I couldn’t afford to blow my performance rounds at the current rate of 1 round per enemy though. Even without using WW at all I’m still halfway through my daily BP rounds, and we haven’t even seen the King yet (though we think we hear him around the corner). Maybe he’ll be hard enough to hit that a solid 20-30 touch attack damage per round will be appealing. If not then I doubt we’ll see the power used in this dungeon.
I’m certainly enjoying the Dirge Bard archetype more than the Sound Striker. Ray of Enfeeblement has become kind of a signature debuff spell which elicits groans from the GM. Weird Words is more like an amusing threat. I think the old Weird Words was too powerful while the new Weird Words is too expensive to use on groups and not very fun to use on single enemies unless they’re really tough to hurt by other means (very high AC with high SR and energy resistance)
No word that I know of. I think, at this point, it's a 'wait and see' thing.
Another session has passed without a use of Weird Words. With only around 2-3 levels left in the AP it looks like any new Weird Words upgrades might come too late for my PC to enjoy. I might take the Deafening Song Bolt spell at some point to get a thematically similar attack with about 3 times the bang for my action economy buck. Granted, that costs a 5th level spell slot, but standard actions are valuable, and DSB carries a no-save deafness debuff too.
Stopped following this for a while, but helping a buddy make a bard. What was the final conclusion on this?
Also, saw SKR say that the Thundercaller needed errata, did that happen? Or is it in Que to be?
Stopped following this for a while, but helping a buddy make a bard. What was the final conclusion on this?
Also, saw SKR say that the Thundercaller needed errata, did that happen? Or is it in Que to be?
No final resolution, only the PDT's proposal some pages back that received mixed degrees of criticism. As for the Thundercaller, no clue on if or when it will receive errata since it's from a campaign setting book, most of which do not get errata because they are only printed a single time.
Best advice I can give is this - If the game is for PFS, avoid both archetypes to be completely safe. If it's for a home game, have a heart to heart with the GM and get on the same page about how the ability should work. No reason that it couldn't he house ruled to work as an individual group desired for their own home game.
I just hope they go the route of the Elf/Aasimar oracle animal companion route with the FAQ instead of the murdered Crane Wing route.
It is for PFS, which is why I was checking.
I hear ya Azten! I suspect they'll murder it because it is the Bard class, and Bards are like Monks and rogues, they don't get nice things, and when they accidentally do, they get those nice things taken away.
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It is for PFS, which is why I was checking.
I'd recommend avoiding Thundercaller entirely in PFS, since at any given point it may be errata or you may have GM reject your character's build.
For the Sound Striker, I'd strongly recommend avoiding the "multiple on one" target interpretation. Since it is very clear that wasn't the way it was written. So you will find a number of GM that will block your build's strategy (like me.)
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It is for PFS, which is why I was checking.I'd recommend avoiding Thundercaller entirely in PFS, since at any given point it may be errata or you may have GM reject your character's build.
For the Sound Striker, I'd strongly recommend avoiding the "multiple on one" target interpretation. Since it is very clear that wasn't the way it was written. So you will find a number of GM that will block your build's strategy (like me.)
As compared to my Lore Warden who can tell you from personal experience that GMs used the many-on-one version on him. Which is why I built a sound striker bard.
My Sound Striker has seen two more sessions pass without a Weird Word being spoken. On the other hand, since the other PCs now both have the ability to act in the surprise round and some nova potential I often take few or no actions in combat. By the time I've moved into range everything is generally dead. Sometimes I don't even get to move. Hopefully we'll hit some tougher fights soon and "slow but steady" will at least be in the race. I put that in quotes because with a +25 Perception and +10 initiative I wouldn't normally expect my PC to see fights ending before he gets to do much. I guess that's how high level play goes though...
@Under a Bleeding Sun - If there aren’t any other archetypes you’re interested in which give up inspire competence or suggestion then the Sound Striker offers a somewhat interesting attack mode which can be useful once in a while, especially against very high AC foes who also have high SR and or energy resistance (e.g. dragons)
@James Risner - I think the grammar in the original ability was actually rather unclear. I’ll agree that PDT clearly ruled against the “multiple on one” use, but the fact that they had to do so explicitly suggests to me that other folks found the original rules text unclear too.
I disagree in lumping Bards in with Monks and Rogues. Bards remain a solid choice as a character and can be easily built to be very competent. Monks and Rogues, however, both need fairly high degrees of system mastery to contribute in combat, especially if they want to be able to function on their own (instead of needing a flanking partner).
The Sound Striker will more than likely be murdered by errata, though I don't think the Thunderstriker will because campaign setting books don't typically get errata.
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@James Risner - I think the grammar in the original ability was actually rather unclear. I’ll agree that PDT clearly ruled against the “multiple on one” use, but the fact that they had to do so explicitly suggests to me that other folks found the original rules text unclear too.
Fair enough. But if you offered them a copy of Scorching Ray and Magic Missile to read before reading Weird Words. How many would still go with "multiple on one" interpretation?
It comes down to the style of writing. This style of explicitly stating when you can bundle up multiple attacks on a single target isn't ideal.
For the record, Weird Words went unused for another session this week. We did have some longer, tougher fights, but nothing was so difficult to hit that touch attacks seemed appealing. There was a situation where I wanted to finish off two injured monsters, but Intensified Thundering Drums at 10d8 seemed to have about twice as much damage potential as the 2d8+8+1d6 from Weird Words.
Since one of the monsters made the saving throw I guess the total damage was actually only about 50% better. If I didn't have Intensified Spell I guess I might have used Weird Words. If nothing else this might be evidence that I've kind of wasted a feat (and a Trait, for that matter)
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@James Risner - I think the grammar in the original ability was actually rather unclear. I’ll agree that PDT clearly ruled against the “multiple on one” use, but the fact that they had to do so explicitly suggests to me that other folks found the original rules text unclear too.Fair enough. But if you offered them a copy of Scorching Ray and Magic Missile to read before reading Weird Words. How many would still go with "multiple on one" interpretation?
It comes down to the style of writing. This style of explicitly stating when you can bundle up multiple attacks on a single target isn't ideal.
And I have read both before. I am fairly confident that Iammars has also read them before. Both of us saw nothing in the original write-up that gives much basis for assuming that it only allows a single word per target.
There are several other things that give single target definitions, one way or another.
The basic writeup, IIRC, said, basically, you can shoot up to your level (max 10) of Weird Words at targets within 30'. Unlike Magic Missile and Scorching Ray, which both explicitly say they all happen at once, there is even an implication of word followed by word, which would allow changing target in mid-stream, and nothing there to imply that each word has to attack a different target.
As is, in the clarification, this ability goes from a nice fallback, to something that has very little purpose.
Supernatural abilities having DR doesn't work in the rules, and nothing actually indicates it does "weapon" damage, just damage that happens to share types with weapon damage.
Design team says otherwise although I disagree with them as it makes many such abilities nearly useless once DR comes online.
I don't think Dervish mixes with Soundstriker, since the Bardic Music ability is altered by both archetypes.
Soundstriker has pretty short range. It wouldn't really work as a reliable source of "ranged" damage. I think of it as more of a melee attack.
Dawnflower Dervish stacks with Sound Striker, but the Dervish Dancer doesn't.
When a dawnflower dervish uses the inspire courage, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics bardic performance types as battle dances, these performance types only provide benefit to the dervish himself. All other types of bardic performance work normally (affecting the bard and his allies, or the bard’s enemies, as appropriate).
Since the Dawnflower Dervish doesn't change or alter the Inspire Competence, or Suggestion performances, they function normally; which for the Sound Striker, means Wordstrike and Weird Words.
not that those are good options to take. Just use a short bow when you can't close. Inspire courage still works with it and your only going to be using this when you have no melee option.
@Snowbluff - I'd expect that many DMs who are aware of the PDT ruling that you can't stack multiple Words on one target will want to use it. That said, I suppose if you weren't planning on taking any other archetypes then it might not hurt to add a touch attack options to your toolbox in exchange for Suggestion. I wouldn't expect to use this particular tool more than a few times per campaign though.
I'm not sure if you've been following the entire thread, but a while back I suggested limiting the ability to 3 Words total which can be aimed at the same or different targets. I figured this would offer a fairly nice pop of around 60 damage against a single target or 20 damage against 3 targets. This coincidentally seemed to be around the same damage a Bard with a bow would be likely to inflict and perhaps a little less than a Bard with a wand or ring with Scorching Ray might achieve.
Scorching Ray is already a very powerful damage dealing tool. Maybe having something similar which bypasses SR seemed like too much to Paizo. Of course Alchemists and Gunslingers specialize in that, but they're somewhat controversial classes.
So it's been 7 months since the original post, I wonder if the team has made a decision yet?
