[Frog God Games] The Lost Lands: Sword of Air Kickstarter has gone live!


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Well, yeah - I think that holds true for every interaction. Maybe I misunderstood Skeeter's point. He seemed to be advocating silence (other than voting with one's wallet).

Well that is Skeeter who seems to hold on to a somewhat outdated concept that negative feedback totally outweighs any positive ones. I think people are more savvy than that now.

Publisher, Frog God Games

We actually do solicit a great deal of feedback when designing reward levels. Its just very hard to customize them later on. Fulfillment becomes, well, very hard if each order is different.

Think that was Skeets point.

Publisher, Frog God Games

Ps. No such thing as over entitled Steve. Actually you and Greg both factor in pretty heavily to how Ibdesign reward levels (being regular customers).

Repeat business and giving your best customers what yhey want (like adding herolab early) is what this is all about.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Steve Geddes wrote:
Skeeter Green wrote:
I do not go to the KS originators and tell them what they should do to make me happy, however. That's just me. If I don't think something is a good value, I just don't back it. I still don't see how people justify telling a company what they have to make, or what freebies/goodies they need to include. I've watched a couple of 3pp of rpg material get slammed over what "they need to include to get my pledge". That's just arrogance and entitlement. If something doesn't look good, DON"T FIGGIN' BUY IT. The whole thing just blows my mind.

At the risk of sounding over entitled...this surprises me a bit.

I'm always happy to tell people what I'm looking for when I back a project. I figure what's the alternative? Let you run lots of kickstarters as experiments until you hit on what will get my support? I generally back projects at the higher levels which is, I dare say, where most of the profit is (provided bill doesn't foot my shipping bill, of course). I figure its doing the project originators a favour to be clear about what makes me say yes and what will be of no interest.

Steve-

Finally got a chance to respond. I misrepresented myself, or just wasn't clear. When a customer is willing to give constructive feedback, help with risk/reward calcs, and offers input such as "Hey, if you include X, along with Y, I'd be willing to raise to Z level". <I dont know if that makes it any clearer lol>, then it IS helpful.

Offering suggestions how to raise pledge value is awesome. Giving feedback along the lines of us giving customers better value for their dollar, to maximize useful material and get rid of bulk that has no value to consumers, and to make sure we can get more of Bill, Greg, and Matt's writing out to people is incredibly helpful.

The entitlement that I was talking about was more along the lines of how the rpg business is constantly cutting our own throats regarding pricing, and value per dollar. It seems like rpgs are lowering prices constantly, trying to grab one more person. All its doing its making it impossible for some of the (even) smaller companies to get their ideas out. There are a number of schools of thought that pdfs should be essentially free. I have heard pricing structures suggesting that a 300 page pdf be $10. Anything under 32 pages should be less than $3. Pdfs don't take any resources, so what give us the right to charge $40 for a 500 page pdf? (Steve-not ranting at you or anyone in particular, just giving examples)

I use the Itunes example. A musician records their music. They can release it as a physical CD, or as an mp3 online. Most do both. On itunes, songs are $.99 (some). A CD costs about $15 for 12-17 tracks. The physical media is almost free.

The example isn't perfect, because books are astronomically more expensive than CDs, but that is essentially my point. Why should the digital version be 10% of the price of the book? Is it 10% less valuable? The same art, the same IP, the same amount of time you can use it (Way better then the price of movies, or other leisure time pursuits).

Now, back to the point: if someone, at ANY pledge level, has a cool way for us to increase value, I'm all for listening. I cant promise we can always do it, but I'll certainly be up for listening. And not just for the uber-high-level pledges. I'm always up for doing something a better way.

As far as you specifically, your level of pledging is almost impossible to do without your feedback. We certainly don't want to ship you a bunch of junk you don't want, that's no good for us or for you. I expect you to throw in your .02 to let us know what you're looking for. Same goes for all the international gang. If we're going to pack boxes up to go around the world, we want to get folks what they're looking for, because it's such a hassle for you guys.

I hope that clears some of my murky writing.


I have commented elsewhere on the discussion of the race to the bottom on pdfs originally brought up by Rachel. Companies that do this are cutting their own throats IMHO. I don't complain about the cost of pdfs although I do try and get the best value I can as a consumer buying them on sale when I can. I rarely buy just pdfs and appreciate the fact that FGG gives the pdf along with the hard copy. Something most do not do. Books in general have gotten insanely expensive and even more so gaming books. For example I can still regularly get first run history books that are short print runs for $40-$50. But they don't have nearly the art nor the graphics. Color to me isn't something worth paying extra for, but that is just me. I know the market is heading that direction so I swallow it.

As for this kickstarter I have no issue with the reward levels. I think they are appropriate priced to value and would normally have already pledged but I am broke at present. I am attempting to raise the funds from our gaming group but so far we have only raised enough for the book. Would prefer to go to the $200 level, but it does not appear like they are going to do that. I am sorry if my comments may come off as if the grapes are sour, they are not. I am going to give it one more week and then pledge at the level we get which looks like the $110 level this time and will get the Herolab files at some point. I think one thing that could help is more of a laymen's explanation as to what Sword of Air is and what I mean is to explain it in a way that people that are not familiar with FGG products can understand. I get it, but most of my gamers don't as they are not familiar with the setting.
They would want to know how this is going to affect their characters.
That is what they are interested in.

Publisher, Frog God Games

Ill put something together in that Greg.


Skeeter Green wrote:

Steve-

Finally got a chance to respond. I misrepresented myself, or just wasn't clear. When a customer is willing to give constructive feedback, help with risk/reward calcs, and offers input such as "Hey, if you include X, along with Y, I'd be willing to raise to Z level". <I dont know if that makes it any clearer lol>, then it IS helpful.

Offering suggestions how to raise pledge value is awesome. Giving feedback along the lines of us giving customers better value for their dollar, to maximize useful material and get rid of bulk that has no value to consumers, and to make sure we can get more of Bill, Greg, and Matt's writing out to people is incredibly helpful.

The entitlement that I was talking about was more along the lines of how the rpg business is constantly cutting our own throats regarding pricing, and value per dollar. It seems like rpgs are lowering prices constantly, trying to grab one more person. All its doing its making it impossible for some of the (even) smaller companies to get their ideas out. There are a number of schools of thought that pdfs should be essentially free. I have heard pricing structures suggesting that a 300 page pdf be $10. Anything under 32 pages should be less than $3. Pdfs don't take any resources, so what give us the right to charge $40 for a 500 page pdf? (Steve-not ranting at you or anyone in particular, just giving examples)

I use the Itunes example. A musician records their music. They can release it as a physical CD, or as an mp3 online. Most do both. On itunes, songs are $.99 (some). A CD costs about $15 for 12-17 tracks. The physical media is almost free.

The example isn't perfect, because books are astronomically more expensive than CDs, but that is essentially my point. Why should the digital version be 10% of the price of the book? Is it 10% less valuable? The same art, the same IP, the same amount of time you can use it (Way better then the price of movies, or other leisure time pursuits).

Now, back to the point: if someone, at ANY pledge level, has a cool way for us to increase value, I'm all for listening. I cant promise we can always do it, but I'll certainly be up for listening. And not just for the uber-high-level pledges. I'm always up for doing something a better way.

As far as you specifically, your level of pledging is almost impossible to do without your feedback. We certainly don't want to ship you a bunch of junk you don't want, that's no good for us or for you. I expect you to throw in your .02 to let us know what you're looking for. Same goes for all the international gang. If we're going to pack boxes up to go around the world, we want to get folks what they're looking for, because it's such a hassle for you guys.

I hope that clears some of my murky writing.

No worries, skeeter. I'm pretty sure everyone except me understood you the first time, so I think the murk was in the eye of the beholder. :)

I'm with you on pricing. I once read a review that began "for $2.99, I expect much more..."

In fact I think it's industry wide, not just the smaller companies. I think paizo's books are too cheap (though they at least have sensible PDF pricing discounts).


If you mean too cheaply made I would agree with you. I would prefer to pay more for books that last. Over half of the Core Rules books that our group has are falling apart and some are less than six months old! None are over two years.


I mean both. I like nicely bound books and am also willing to pay more for that. however, I think the prices RPG companies set for the books they currently produce are too low as well.


I am not sure I agree with that. The Core rulebook has a MSRP of $49.99 which is comparable to other books of size and print run.


It's not a popular position, I admit.

I confess I'm not basing my estimate of the core rule book print run on anything other than a guess. I'd rate it as about as popular as a first year college textbook for a mainstream course though. If I were asked to estimate a reasonable price for an AP instalment, I'd go for $30 (based on equivalent glossy magazines/books with no advertisements).


I don't think they would sell at $30. When you figure the discount through Amazon an AP runs around $100 which is about what RA and RC costs and they are high quality hard covers not cheap glossys. People will pay $20 a pop for a single copy but I doubt much more, not around here. I know gamers here are cheap! But then again we have a relatively low standard of living here in San Antonio compared to most US cities.

Shadow Lodge

Steve Geddes wrote:

It's not a popular position, I admit.

I confess I'm not basing my estimate of the core rule book print run on anything other than a guess. I'd rate it as about as popular as a first year college textbook for a mainstream course though. If I were asked to estimate a reasonable price for an AP instalment, I'd go for $30 (based on equivalent glossy magazines/books with no advertisements).

Holy crap, what magazines cost 30 bucks per issue?


brvheart wrote:
I don't think they would sell at $30. When you figure the discount through Amazon an AP runs around $100 which is about what RA and RC costs and they are high quality hard covers not cheap glossys. People will pay $20 a pop for a single copy but I doubt much more, not around here. I know gamers here are cheap! But then again we have a relatively low standard of living here in San Antonio compared to most US cities.

They'd definitely sell less. Plus (given the expectations that RPG companies and the community have developed over the years) it wouldnt work in the short term for just one company to charge what I consider to be an appropriate amount. As I said - some people complain about how much they receive in a $2.99 PDF, so the expectations are for a low price point.

I have no actual knowledge, of course, just speculation. but I suspect demand is relatively inelastic.


I really hope this makes the colour stretch goal, then I will be able to convince myself to pay the huge amount needed for an international book. Otherwise I will have to be satisfied with a PDF and get it printed is softcover for reading.

So I hope it makes colour but my wallet doesn't!

But for the size of the books I think the PDF pricing is fine. I understand Paizo's position of selling their rule book PDFs for so low a price, it is a gate way drug AND it is (almost) all available free online anyway, as it is OGL.

But Paizo don't knock the price back of their campaign line PDFs unless you subscribe (which is exactly what FGG do, free PDF with physical purchase). Just 'cos you are buying electrons it doesn;t reduce the amount of work/costs that go into the book. Even Amazon Kindle books are similar in price (often even more expensive once the more popular books get to Mass Market Paperback).

To cut a long story short, many peoples PDF price expectations are unrealistic.


7 people marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

It's not a popular position, I admit.

I confess I'm not basing my estimate of the core rule book print run on anything other than a guess. I'd rate it as about as popular as a first year college textbook for a mainstream course though. If I were asked to estimate a reasonable price for an AP instalment, I'd go for $30 (based on equivalent glossy magazines/books with no advertisements).

Holy crap, what magazines cost 30 bucks per issue?

That's my estimate of what a niche-sporting/hobby magazine would need to charge if they didnt have advertising.

I've also added a premium since the number of people who can produce something like a Paizo AP on a monthly basis is very small (imo). I dont think we pay RPG professionals or semiprofessionals enough given the rare nature of their skills.


Steve Geddes wrote:
I dont think we pay RPG professionals or semiprofessionals enough given the rare nature of their skills.

Everyone needs to go to this man's post right now and favorite it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I will second that remark!

Add me as backer number 271 btw!

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

brvheart wrote:

I will second that remark!

Add me as backer number 271 btw!

word!

We got another $3k burst yesterday, looking likely to fund this weekend, which means stretch goals and more sneak-peaks soon!


I likes stretch goals!


DaveMage wrote:

I agree with Steve. If more promised late and delivered early, it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

If you're a 1-person operation (as many of these RPG kickstarters seem to be), then building in time for "real life circumstances" seems imperative.

....AND right on cue, Chris Pramas announces that the Freeport Pathfinder Campaign Kickstarter will be delayed due to a personal ailment.

If it wasn't for the misfortune of these individuals, this would be almost be funny.


Yeah I was a little disappointed to learn of the four month delay, but can understand.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Hey everyone, new update on the Kickstarter page


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Skeeter Green wrote:
Hey everyone, new update on the Kickstarter page

Yes, please. I'd love to get these bad boys as the current price point is a bit out of my normal range. So a chance to get them with a discount is a great idea.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Here's hoping ToH4 makes into the add-on packages!

Dark Archive

Elorebaen wrote:
Here's hoping ToH4 makes into the add-on packages!

Agreed, Stoneheart Valley as well...heck if you wanna open up your entire catalog who's to complain! ;p


Elorebaen wrote:
Here's hoping ToH4 makes into the add-on packages!

Yeah, I'd be all over that!


I'm definitly looking forward to the list of discounted FGG add-on books for this kickstarter. That could potentially get me to quadruple my pledge!

Publisher, Frog God Games

What if we did a global "everything 15% off" or something? Not sure if viable; Krista and Chris might kill me--but would that be attractive?

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Bill Webb wrote:
What if we did a global "everything 15% off" or something? Not sure if viable; Krista and Chris might kill me--but would that be attractive?

Krista is wounded, and Chris lives in Cali; I'm the one you should worry about saying that....got my eye on you mister!


Bill Webb wrote:
What if we did a global "everything 15% off" or something? Not sure if viable; Krista and Chris might kill me--but would that be attractive?

Im sure it would be attractive, but be careful not to give away more than you get. Hitting higher pledge targets means more work and more funds required for fulfilment. If you earn that by forgoing likely future sales, is it really worth it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bill Webb wrote:
What if we did a global "everything 15% off" or something? Not sure if viable; Krista and Chris might kill me--but would that be attractive?

I'd suggest sticking to the big guns, TS, RA and RC, but those at a lower cost are what helped me get in now as a backer.


For me I A) already have all the big books and B) am too broke to buy more so I would say do what ever you think is best for everyone else! The more people that have these canon books the better IMHO!


Bill Webb wrote:
What if we did a global "everything 15% off" or something? Not sure if viable; Krista and Chris might kill me--but would that be attractive?

20% would be even more enticing! So enticing that frankly I would be forced to quadruple my pledge! I would not even think twice!

*greedy frog smile

The thing is, if you did something like this you are going to be writing up 100 encounters because of the money rolling in. Are you really prepared to write that many encounters? And this would only be worth it for you if you have recovered your initial investment on said books.

But selling your books at a discount is a better add-on than say printing up character sheets, posters or dice which might cause delays cost you a bunch of money and you may end up sitting on vast piles of it and after subtracting the printing costs...may not really add to the cash pile for this kickstarter.


I've got pretty much the entire FGG range, just need to top up HCC 7 I think so I am not the target audience either


Bill Webb wrote:
What if we did a global "everything 15% off" or something? Not sure if viable; Krista and Chris might kill me--but would that be attractive?

As a loyal fan who bought the Slumbering Tsar Subscription, got the TOH Complete preorder, took part in both RA and RC kickstarters, and just ordered Stoneheart Valley, "everything 15% off" appeals to me more because I already have all the main books.

Having said that, most people like me have probably already pledged (or are to broke to do so), so if it's new fans that you are looking to recruit for SoA, my guess is you'd probably get more bang for your buck by just putting the big guns on sale.

EDIT: Having just read through other people's comments I now realize that I'm pretty much saying the exact same thing as everyone else.

ALSO: I think Astral Frog is right that discount books is a better add-on than dice, character sheets, posters, etc... For the most part, when I back a kickstarter, I have no interest in anything except the books.

Publisher, Frog God Games

Adding not books would add shipping costs.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, for add-on goals, I'd prefer more value be added to the book, than loading the order down with lots of trinkets. It's win-win...the customers get more value from the book, and FGG doesn't have to pay increased shipping cost to mail out replicas of the Sword of Air or whatever.

Publisher, Frog God Games

Putting together add ons with the gang tonight! News soon.


Frog God chocolates!

Shadow Lodge

Frog God flamethrowers!

Shadow Lodge

Sword of Air replicas!
Wand of Orcus replicas!
Scepter of Faiths replicas!

Shadow Lodge

Free S&W Complete PDF for all backers when they reach 400 backers.

Publisher, Frog God Games

Free sw complete pdf for everyone. Not just backers. Add ons coming as well. Next update weds.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

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Bill Webb wrote:
Free sw complete pdf for everyone. Not just backers. Add ons coming as well. Next update weds.

yes, to be very clear:

FREE FOR EVERYONE, FOREVER! It's our backer unlock!

SG


O_O

Wow. Just wow. What a Stretch-goal. O_o

Damn, I need to scrounge those bucks together to support you at an appropriate level. (Though I haven't yet read all RC-material...)


WHOA.

In for $40. Afraid that's all I can manage, funds are tight this month thanks to having to buy new computer.

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

Much appreciated, and check back on Wednesday; we may have something to offer you guys that you simply can't refuse...

Sovereign Court Contributor

Holey croak, frogman!

Pathfinder Rules Conversion, Frog God Games

NEW HUGE UPDATE!

Get 'yer updates here!

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