Ghoul paralysis - SU or EX?


Rules Questions


Paralysis is listed as either SU or EX in the universal monster rules. But the way the entry is formatted in monster text blocks doesn't give an indication of which it is.

Tonight I had a party of 5th level characters fighting a bunch of ghouls, and a ghast. Now, the ghoul's disease is clearly marked SU, but the ghast stench is EX. So there's reasonable interpretation for either, in my opinion. But one of my players, who gets a Fort save bonus against SU effects, rolled right on the cusp where it was a fail against EX but a success against SU. I ruled it as EX, reasoning that the elf immunity was because of the elven nature, rather than the ghoul nature (and thus why the more powerful attack of the ghast could bypass it).

Was I wrong?


Thing is, the ghast's stench is just a stink. So it's reasonable for it to be an EX. But the ghoul's touch delivers a SU disease, which would seem to set a precedent for the paralysis to be so, as well. To my mind, it has to do with their link to negative energy, being undead and all.

So I would say the paralysis is SU.


Incidentally, for giggles, I just whipped out my 3.5 MM, and it lists the ghoul's paralysis as EX. For what it's worth.


Well, first off, my brief research confirmed that there is no clarification in the Ghoul entry about its nature. So it could go either way.

The short answer is no, you're not wrong, because you're the GM.

The answer you're looking for is:
My opinion says you were wrong. Your rationale is kind of irrelevant; the elf's ability to resist has nothing to do with whether or not the ability is Ex or Su; it has to do with how powerful the Ghoul in question is to overcome the elf's resistance (Ghasts are explicitly more powerful Ghouls, not a separate monster as they were in 3.5).

My opinion is that it's Supernatural. It's undead, and there's nothing to indicate that the paralysis is caused by any mundane source. If the Ghoul Fever was Extraordinary, there'd be a point to be made, but it's Su as well.


Bruunwald wrote:
Incidentally, for giggles, I just whipped out my 3.5 MM, and it lists the ghoul's paralysis as EX. For what it's worth.

Ah. Well, then that's more likely the truth, but given it was removed from PRG, one is open to rule either way. I'm of the opinion that it probably should be Su (I mean, how does a claw paralyze someone's entire body through a mundane means?)


The rules are pretty clear that Ex abilities can defy the laws of physics as we know them. It's a question of power source, not plausibility.


Its really the same question.

How plausible is an undead gaining an extraordinary ability when their very creation involves and depends on magic?


Bizbag wrote:
Bruunwald wrote:
Incidentally, for giggles, I just whipped out my 3.5 MM, and it lists the ghoul's paralysis as EX. For what it's worth.
Ah. Well, then that's more likely the truth, but given it was removed from PRG, one is open to rule either way. I'm of the opinion that it probably should be Su (I mean, how does a claw paralyze someone's entire body through a mundane means?)

Nerve Damage. The claws trigger misfires in nervous system causing the victim to lose control of their bodily functions. That's pretty Ex to me.

I also see the Su portion of it. And Ghasts can paralyze elves, ghouls cannot, this makes me lean towards Su.

Also, in vague cases like this, GM's word is law. If you have to start a forum post to answer a question then it is clearly GM interpretation. =P


Thanks for the input, all!

Necrovox wrote:
Nerve Damage. The claws trigger misfires in nervous system causing the victim to lose control of their bodily functions. That's pretty Ex to me.

Yeah, that's kind of how I saw it - some kind of nerve toxin on their claws. The reason they have it is SU but that doesn't make the condition itself SU. But again, I could see it as SU, too.

Necrovox wrote:
Also, in vague cases like this, GM's word is law.

Not quite, anymore. Rule 0 according to the core book includes, "Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt." (Emphasis mine.) My players tend to think the second part of the sentence means they should have equal say when I'm making a judgement call midgame, and it has led to hurt feelings in the past on both sides. In fact, after one of my players ragequit last night and later told me that my players had been complaining about my rulings behind my back (we play on Roll20 but they are all in the same physical location) I decided not to keep running a game for them anyhow. :( Maybe, anyhow. I don't want to decide while still angry. But that's a topic for the advice forum.


They are allowed to contribute their opinions (or if they think you are simply misremembering a rule) which you, the GM, should take into consideration, but they're forgetting the first part of it that says you are the FINAL arbiter.

It's a tough lesson to learn. It's certainly their prerogative to leave if they are not having fun or think you are unfair, but at your table, you are the law. It's unfortunate they didn't feel they could discuss it with you. Perhaps next time you are ready to DM, let everyone know that you'd like them to talk with you privately if they have a problem - like have them text you after the game.


Bizbag wrote:

They are allowed to contribute their opinions (or if they think you are simply misremembering a rule) which you, the GM, should take into consideration, but they're forgetting the first part of it that says you are the FINAL arbiter.

It's a tough lesson to learn. It's certainly their prerogative to leave if they are not having fun or think you are unfair, but at your table, you are the law. It's unfortunate they didn't feel they could discuss it with you. Perhaps next time you are ready to DM, let everyone know that you'd like them to talk with you privately if they have a problem - like have them text you after the game.

I remind my players every game: If you have a problem, advice, concerns, comments etc. Text me. I play with family and close friends, and I also remind them I volunteered to GM because my dad (our typical GM for past 20 years) was burnt out on GMing.

Also, sorry about the group collapse.

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