Min Maxing a Drunken Master


Advice


Well as the title says I'd like to min Max a Drunken Master Monk for a pirate campaign. I'd really like to go with a Dwarf for the Race.

All official paizo Pathfinder books allowed.
30 Points for point buy.
2 Traits.

Currently I'm looking at.

Torgar the Bloody Dwarf Monk(Drunken Master, Qinggong) Lawful Evil
Traits: Honored Fist of the Society, Heavy Hitter.
Stats after racial mods:
Str: 17
Dex: 15
Con: 18
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 5

Feats:
@1 - Dodge(monk Bonus) & Power Attack
@2 - Improved Grapple
@3 - Fast Drinker
@5 - Dragon Style
@6 - Combat Reflexes
@7 - Dragon Ferocity

Use Qinggong to trade out Slow fall for Barkskin, Maybe use it to trade High Jump for Quick Draw(Our DM uses it to apply to grabbing anything and stowing anything not just weapons) or True Strike.
Considering taking Saltbeard as the alternate Racial Trait.

I don't know I don't really play Monks often but this seemed like the best I could do with it I'm curious if anyone can improve on this idea in any way? Would this build hold up with a moderately well optimized Fighter or say Ranger from say 1-8. What items would I want to prioritize to max out my effectiveness? Will I have any particularly weak levels?


Mmmm no feedback. Well bump.

Additionally considering tacking on Monk of the Sacred Mountain to the archetypes and delaying acquiring barkskin to level 7 I think overall this might be a more effective combatant but it trades a much stronger level 2 & 3 for a weaker level 4,5, & 6 until I can swap out wholeness of body for the barkskin buff.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.


Drunken Master? You could pick up Searing Ray--one of the few archetypes that can spam it, and laser eyebeams are effective until a decent level.

What is the goal of the character?

What is the rest of your party? What buffs can you count on? In particular, look for someone to cast Mage Armor on you.

Heavy Hitter is good. You can do better than Honored Fist of the Society. I.E. You could grab UMD as a class skill--yes, even with 5 Cha--or something more interesting. As a DM you have tons of Ki.

You don't need Fast Drinker. The trick is to just be drunk all the time, so you enter combat inebriated and Ki'd up.

Crane Style is almost always the better choice over Dragon Style, unless you're trying for the absolute highest DPR possible. Even then, if someone hits you once then Crane Style usually comes out ahead.

At 30 Point Buy start with STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 13, WIS 16, CHA 7 before Racial Mods (you're one point short, nothing to spend it on).


gnomersy wrote:

Mmmm no feedback. Well bump.

Additionally considering tacking on Monk of the Sacred Mountain to the archetypes and delaying acquiring barkskin to level 7 I think overall this might be a more effective combatant but it trades a much stronger level 2 & 3 for a weaker level 4,5, & 6 until I can swap out wholeness of body for the barkskin buff.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Doesn't look too bad, although I might look to see if there is a way to lower Con and maybe Int a tad and bump Str up to 18. Its expensive though I know.

Whether or not you need Fast Drinker is really dependent on the DM's style. IIRC, Drunken Ki points stay in your pool for up to an hour, though you are maxed as to how many you can have. I certainly would not take the Feat at level 3 though since the only thing you can do with Drunken Ki at level 3 is the 5 foot move without provoking. Dropping Fast Drinker then lets you take Dragon Style two levels earlier, which in turn gets you Ferocity two levels sooner and then opens you up to Elemental Fist at level 7.

Other ideas that spring to mind are to consider taking a dip into Brawler. Three levels gets you some nice bonuses and an extra feat or two, which can be used to take Weapon Focus (if you have a main weapon). This will work particularly well if you are planning on primarily going unarmed. A fourth level will enable you to take Weapon Spec for more damage.

As for items, off the top of my head: Wand of Mage Armor, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Wand of Enlarge Person (to maximize damage at the cost of defense), Wand of Bull's Strength. Note that the wands might be able to be ignored if you have cooperative casters in your party, but much of the time, the casters will not be that cooperative -- not really a knock on casters, just that its not as fun to simply buff others.

Early on, you'll want to look for a variety of weapons and material types to use for when you run into damage reduction, although with the latest errata, monks get fairly good damage reduction avoidance now. Still though its nice to have shuriken or a staff or temple sword to get around the DR when you can't do it with fists alone.


Alrighty and I'm back to answer some questions.

I really don't know what to do other than Honored Fist of the society with a -3 Cha bon and no excess skill points it feels likely that it would be a waste on UMD and I coudln't think of anything else the character needs off the top of my head.

The party is currently not hashed out we have one faceman who either wants to go sorcerer or bard. The other may be another arcane or divine caster most likely. Lastly we'll probably have a fighter or barbarian of some sort.

But in the absence of that I'd like to be capable of being a primary melee character in terms of damage and survivability if possible with goodish saves and the ability to go toe to toe using unarmed attacks. Having a combat maneuver option like trip or grapple to stop people from running past me would be nice too.

Buffs wise I can't say how many I expect to have on hand I'd like to plan out the character assuming none.

For fast drinker I just kind of figured getting the ki flurry on a more regular(multiple times per fight for free) basis would be worth the feat loss although I don't know. How is it DM dependent if you could elaborate maybe I could figure out if I have to have it or not?

Thanks for your feedback I appreciate it all.


I would do something like this:

Dwarf Drunken master qinggong monk
Traits: Heavy Hitter, Reactionary
Stats after race mod: Str 18, dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 5, all points go to str, you need a belt of con +2 for fast drinker
Feats:
1. Dodge (Bonus), Endurance
2. Combat Reflexes (Bonus)
3. Drunken Brawler
4. Qinggong: Barkskin
5. Power Attack, Qinggong: True Strike
6. Mobility (Bonus)
7. Fast Drinker, Gaseous Form
9. Crany Style
10.Medusa's Wrath (Bonus)
11.Crane Wings, Qinggong: Restoration
13.Crane Riposte, Qinggong: Battlemind Link
14.Spring Attack (Bonus)
15.Quicken Spell Like ability (True Strike), Qinggong: Cold Ice Strike
17.Weapon focus: Unarmed Strike, Qinggong: Penetrating Strike, Qinggong: Quivering Palm
18.Improved Critical (Bonus)
19.Ability Focus: Stunning Fist, Qinggong: Improved Vital strike

With Drunken Brawler you will get temporary hp every time you drink, there is great synergy with fast drinker, you will actually gain free hp every round. For the qinggong ki powers replace the corresponding class abilities.
There is also the option of Dimentional Agility feat tree, but, unless you reach fast level 19, it generally does not worth it.


XMorsX wrote:

I would do something like this:

Dwarf Drunken master qinggong monk
Traits: Heavy Hitter, Reactionary
Stats after race mod: Str 18, dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 5, all points go to str, you need a belt of con +2 for fast drinker

With Drunken Brawler you will get temporary hp every time you drink, there is great synergy with fast drinker, you will actually gain free hp every round. For the qinggong ki powers replace the corresponding class abilities.
There is also the option of Dimentional Agility feat tree, but, unless you reach fast level 19, it generally does not worth it.

Hmmm a very fair point I did consider drunken brawler but it was brought to my attention that the ref penalty is cumulative and would eventually make any ref save an auto fail if I used it to boost hp on a round by round basis which concerns me and endurance is already such a dead feat that I wasn't really sure I wanted to go into it.

Edit: Also why go for mobility and gaseous form? I can sort of see mobility being useful but probably less often than deflect arrows to be honest. But gaseous form seems like a bit of a waste to me.


Max Acrobatics, Perception and Stealth. Invest in Sense Motive, Swim, Climb and maybe Knowledge: Religion.

Items have already been mentioned. Wand of mage armor is a priority. So is a ring of protection +1. Amulet of Mighty fist should be obtained as soon as is possible, starting with holy and continuing with enchantment bonuses. If a teamate can cast you greater magic fang or greater magic weapon, you should instead continue with shocking/acid/flaming/whatever. Brilliant energy is nice for late game. For the paricular build you will need to have a belt of con +2 by 7th lvl, but the ideal would be a belt of physical might. Headband of inspired Wisdom is also needed. Finally another good buy is a Monk's Robe.


gnomersy wrote:
XMorsX wrote:

I would do something like this:

Dwarf Drunken master qinggong monk
Traits: Heavy Hitter, Reactionary
Stats after race mod: Str 18, dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 5, all points go to str, you need a belt of con +2 for fast drinker

With Drunken Brawler you will get temporary hp every time you drink, there is great synergy with fast drinker, you will actually gain free hp every round. For the qinggong ki powers replace the corresponding class abilities.
There is also the option of Dimentional Agility feat tree, but, unless you reach fast level 19, it generally does not worth it.

Hmmm a very fair point I did consider drunken brawler but it was brought to my attention that the ref penalty is cumulative and would eventually make any ref save an auto fail if I used it to boost hp on a round by round basis which concerns me and endurance is already such a dead feat that I wasn't really sure I wanted to go into it.

Edit: Also why go for mobility and gaseous form? I can sort of see mobility being useful but probably less often than deflect arrows to be honest. But gaseous form seems like a bit of a waste to me.

I still like drunken brawler, autofailing reflex saves is better than running out of hp, also fort and will saves are generally more dangerous. You do need to consider each time you drink though.

Mobility will come in use every time you are failing an acrobatics check. This will happen more often when you try to flank the bosses, and these fights are the most difficult. Still, if you like more deflect arrows go for it, it is a matter of preference. I find it a bit more situational than I like.

You should think the possibilies with gaseous form. Gaseous form is your way to fly, your infiltration and escape mechanism. It gives you so many potantial choises, both in-battle and especially outside battle that I cannot consider not changing Wholeness of Body for it. Compare it with slow fall and high jump. Who needs them when you can just fly. In particular slow fall becames useless. And think of the style that gives you, use gaseous form, infiltrate the fortress using the ventilation system and open the locked door from the inside, while you make your way out from the crack on the wall. Priceless.

Dark Archive

Remember Power Attack has a prerequisite of +1 BAB, I think XMorsX covered a lot of the good alternatives you might want to consider. With a monks high saves the ref penalty from Drunken Brawler is less of a worry (also you might check with your GM if http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedGear.html#_alchemist's- kindness will help with it, seems fairly logical it might do).


Suthainn wrote:
Remember Power Attack has a prerequisite of +1 BAB, I think XMorsX covered a lot of the good alternatives you might want to consider. With a monks high saves the ref penalty from Drunken Brawler is less of a worry (also you might check with your GM if http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedGear.html#_alchemist's- kindness will help with it, seems fairly logical it might do).

Ah thank you for reminding me I completely forgot.


From the Alternate Racial Traits, consider Saltbeard and Giant Killer (unless you are dead set that you will fight lots of orcs and goblins).


The first thought at came to mind is drink stronger alcohol.


From a purely min-maxing standpoint I would shift alignment from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. The only reason I bring this up is because you said "min-maxing." There is virtually no upsides to being Evil and a whole lot of downsides, other than RP. But if you want to play a Lawful Evil then go for it!

Other than that I think everything has been mentioned. To be honest monks aren't my strong point with builds.


BiosTheo wrote:

From a purely min-maxing standpoint I would shift alignment from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. The only reason I bring this up is because you said "min-maxing." There is virtually no upsides to being Evil and a whole lot of downsides, other than RP. But if you want to play a Lawful Evil then go for it!

Other than that I think everything has been mentioned. To be honest monks aren't my strong point with builds.

Fair, the reason for LE would be because these won't be cuddly wuddly pirates they'll be sort of brutal as such it would be tough to stay LN figured I'd just jump the gun in character creation.

To anybody else who's reading would it be worth trading out Honored Fist for Defensive Strategist trait?


gnomersy wrote:
BiosTheo wrote:

From a purely min-maxing standpoint I would shift alignment from Lawful Evil to Lawful Neutral. The only reason I bring this up is because you said "min-maxing." There is virtually no upsides to being Evil and a whole lot of downsides, other than RP. But if you want to play a Lawful Evil then go for it!

Other than that I think everything has been mentioned. To be honest monks aren't my strong point with builds.

Fair, the reason for LE would be because these won't be cuddly wuddly pirates they'll be sort of brutal as such it would be tough to stay LN figured I'd just jump the gun in character creation.

To anybody else who's reading would it be worth trading out Honored Fist for Defensive Strategist trait?

Absolutely. Very strong trait.


Okay cool so revised plan.

Dwarf Monk Qinggong, Monk of the Sacred Mountain, Drunken Master.

Saltbeard alt racial.

Traits: Defensive Strategist, Heavy Hitter

Stats post racial mods:
Str - 18
Dex - 14
Con - 16(considered dropping the 2 points from int to up this to a 17 in case a belt doesn't appear to be available by level 5 but not sure and I do like the skill points off the int)
Int - 12
Wis - 16
Cha - 5

Feats:
1) Dodge(bonus), Endurance
2) Toughness(MoSM), Deflect Arrows(Bonus)
3) Drunken Brawler
5)Fast Drinker
6) Combat Reflexes
7) Dragon Style & Trade Wholeness of Body for Barkskin.
9) Dragon Ferocity
10) Medusa's Wrath/Imp. Crit. (Bonus)
11) Elemental Fist
13) Deep Drinker
14) Medusa's Wrath/ Imp. Crit.(Bonus)
etc.


As for Fast Drinker being somewhat GM dependent, a lot just depends on how your GM runs games and how "loose" they are with the timing and things like inebriation. In my experience, most GMs are pretty lenient with allowing you to drink and not really hitting you for it. This means you can down several drinks between fights and build your drunken ki pool up. The other consideration is whether or not your GM is going to be a stickler for a) time and b) "Well you didn't say at what time you drank, so I just assumed it was immediately after battle" In other words, if you are trekking through the countryside, you may run into a GM that says "Oh well, those ki points will be gone then."

/shrug not a huge deal really, and quite frankly the flavor of the feat makes for good roleplay which I always consider a bonus. I only mentioned because I know that I have rarely had issues with "being drunk" or running out of ki all that often. Each campaign will vary though of course.


Mmmm I see I think it's probably likely that I could say I drink every hour for that but I figure the in fight drinking would be nice and thematic so I'll just run with it.


Out of curiosity in the last build I posted how badly will the lack of Power Attack hurt me?


Just out of curiosity, have you considered the Bewildering Koan feat? Gnome only unfortunately, but a fast drinking drunken master has a lot of shutdown power with that feat (basically everything that can't beat your bluff check can't act every other round).

Prototype00


Interesting Proto no I had not but it definitely could work in my case I'd really rather go with a dwarf for rp reasons so it won't really help me but it's certainly something I'd consider if I were going with a gnome.


gnomersy wrote:
Out of curiosity in the last build I posted how badly will the lack of Power Attack hurt me?

Personally, I don't think its a huge loss. Monks already have a problem with hitting for a variety of reasons (only partially made up for by the extra attacks). Using power attack is great on the easier to hit foes of course, but its likely there will be just as many times when power attack will hurt you.

Of course I say this having never run the math myself. :)


Losing Power Attack on a Strenght based monk is definately gonna hurt. Don't forget that with flurry you have full BAB, you intentionaly gimp your damage by forsaking it. I would take it by 7th lvl, but it should definately replace Elemental fist, which is a mediocre feat anyway unless you combine it with an appropiate style.

Medusa's Wrath should be obtained before Improved critical. I would also certainly change Diamond Body for Restoration and Diamond Mind for Battlemind Link.


Hmmm fair maybe I'll push back dragon style another 2 levels to fit it in.

Sadly Drunken Master subs out diamond body and diamond soul and sacred mountain subs out slow fall and high jump so I think the only things left to sub out are wholeness of body, abundant step, and quivering palm.

I figure if I can't fit in restoration I can just fob that off on whoever is playing a divine caster since it tends to be chosen. As for Battlemind Link it certainly does look neat maybe I'll trade out abundant step for it and then swap abundant step in for quivering palm assuming we have a second front liner if not I don't really know if it would be worth it.

EDIT: As an aside am I the only person who loathes the list of bonus feats they give the standard monk?


True they are not strong choices, especially because they give the Improved versions and not the greater versions of the combat maneuver feat trees. Still, Medusa's Wrath in conjuction with Stunning fist is awesome and it only gets better that you don't need the prereqs.

Yes I forgot about drunken master. Ditch wholeness and palm, maybe keep abundant step, I would keep it if I was going to take at least the feat Dimentional Agility (of course it becomes awesome if you reach Dimentional Dervish, but it is a heavy investment that pays of in the later levels). I would certainly take Barkskin and Restoration and maybe Cold Ice Strike because it is a swift action. Abundant step with Dim Agility seems more attractive though.


Improved Grapple is ok. Add in Greater Grapple and it becomes better. Monks can be fairly good at grappling, but with combat maneuvers they tend to become less attractive at higher levels.

Edit to add: Admittedly, I had misread the part on the Drunken Ki and didn't realize that at early levels you can have very few drunken ki points at any given time. This does make the feat much more attractive if you can afford the Con investment.


Hmmm having thought about it and looked at the abilities granted by the Sacred mountain archetype I think I'm going to pick up improved grapple instead of deflect arrows at level 2 because it synergizes pretty well together.


Grappling can be particularly effective against casters. The down side, as I said, is that maneuvers in general become less effective as you get into the higher levels. Still, its pretty fun to ruin a caster's day by running up to it, tackling it, pinning it, then inflicting auto damage every round. With some of the grappling feats (jawbreaker, bone breaker, etc.) it can get even more amusing, and cinematic.

Scarab Sages

My 20 Str, 20 Wis (with belt and headband) drunken master/qinggong (Monk 5 / Sorcerer 1) monk has taken:
Traits: Reactionary / Quian Martial Artist
1. Dodge
1. Improved Initiative
2. Improved Grapple
3. Sorcerous Strike
5. Dragon Style

(Fast Drinking doesn't work according to the forums / local DMs.)

He drinks to get temporary ki points, and uses this to power a persistent barkskin. With Mage Armor he's walking around town with AC24, 28 with Shield cast, 32 with Stone Shield (1 ki point, interrupt: for cover for 1 round).

Flurry at +9/+9/+9 for 1d8+1d6+9/1d8+1d6+7/1d8+1d6+7 damage, or about 48 damage a round, which is pretty decent for 6th level. Plus, he can incapacitate a target he hits with no save, once per target per day.

He'll take the next Dragon Style feat for another +2 to damage per hit, then elemental fist for an extra 2d6 per round.


@Shaka why would Fast Drinking not work?

As I read it as long as he keeps the drink in his hand(Jug o' Liquor) to swig out of he should be capable of drinking as a swift admittedly the ki bonus attack is also a swift so it alternates turns either way but it's still up 50% of the time even when full attacking which is more than you'd reasonably expect to have under any other circumstances assuming you fight more than two fights a day.

Also did the sorc get a bloodline or feat to use wis instead of cha?

Out of curiousity which order did you take your levels in and did you feel particularly weak at any points in your build? Based on mine I felt as though from level 2-5 or so I would be at my weakest relative to the rest of the party which concerned me because I'd rather not get killed off early.


I agree, Fast Drinker should work. You just have to limit yourself to the number of max possible drunken ki points. Now, it would also be fair for the GM to eventually start imposing other penalties if you are drinking often enough. Sure, you may be good in combat, but you're gonna make a drunken arse of yourself out of it. ;)

@gnomersy: With my monk, I just hit level 4 at the start of the last session. While I am sure that the dice gods have something to do with it, he certainly felt a lot more stable and powerful than he had before. He has enough hit points now to be able to take a few hits (took a crit plus another hit and was still double digit hit points) and he seems to be hitting hard enough and often enough to keep up with the others.

Additionally, with 4th level, his AC really went up. Got +1 from Dex going up, +1 monk bonus, and then subbed out Slow Fall for Barkskin for another +3. He now typically walks around with a 25 AC without having to fight defensively.


Drinking Rules


Ah right well I mean I figured the point of the fast drinking was to keep near that max cap as often as possible. As for being a drunken arse with a 5 in Cha that's going to be a given in fact it's part of the plan. =P

Mmm okay that's what I thought about access to Barkskin being a big game changer.

@ XMorsX that's a pretty sweet ruleset although it looks less forgiving than the base rules for alcohol as a poison.

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