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So, I've played a few games and I admit I can't roleplay for crap. I tend to play the numbers and tend to think within the skillset rather than within a character. I don't know why but I just can't get over this and play Pathfinder like it were a puzzle instead of a supposedly continuous story.
Makes me a bit sad.
So what I've come to ask is how one gets over and around playing the numbers? I tend to over compensate with gear to make up for my failures ( my backpack has every tool it can carry in it ) and while I'm really good at thinking of new and smart ways to get around I'm really bad at doing this from an "in-character" point of view. If I was playing myself as a chessmaster I'd probably do better but that's breaking the 4th wall, etc.
Improv games. Roleplaying is basically Improv. Its actually a skill you can learn, and train. Some are better then others ofcourse. It will be really hard for people to give you advice and help you over the internet, but you could very well look up a begginers improv comedy course in your area. Take it. It should help a good deal. Or just look up some improv games and play them out with your group a bit.
You apparently have put alot of time into training yourself to play chess yes? That is a specific way of thinking. That kind of analytical thinking is great for the GAME part of roleplaying games, but not good for the roleplaying. You need to learn a different way of thinking in order to roleplay better.
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the only thing that makes a Role-player good IMO is a player who can keep things in game and not get mad out of game about those things.
you do not need to speak in a funny voice, act in a way that is silly, or do you need to play something "new" or "different".
role-playing is simply the ability to take on the mentality of the character you're playing and make decisions based on how that character acts, even if it goes against your true nature.
when i play, i make the most mechanically sound character i want to play, then build a persona around it based on how i think that character should act. once i decide on a persona i use movies, books, tv shows, or real life to emulate a personality that reflects that character.
its similar to saying, i want to play a chaotic neutral rogue, who is kind of a loner and uses kukuris. that is a very similar character to Riddick. so i would use that as a basis for my role-playing choices.
Why do you have to change? If the numbers are what you enjoy, then play the game for the numbers and let the rest of your group do the acting if they want to. It's my experience that people who are really heavy on roleplay don't like to share the spotlight anyhow.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For myself, a helpful way of starting was to roleplay myself. That is, make a character whose personality is my own, so that I'm basically playing "me, with superpowers".
Then, when interacting with the game world, you don't have to think "What would this other person do?", you just react naturally. It's not hard for me to guess how I'd react to encountering such-and-such a thing, you know? :)
Why do you have to change? If the numbers are what you enjoy, then play the game for the numbers and let the rest of your group do the acting if they want to. It's my experience that people who are really heavy on roleplay don't like to share the spotlight anyhow.
This. Although as someone whose been in the same shoes (frustration at finding oneself playing numbers before characters and worrying I miss out) - provided you have fun, you're losing nothing.
But if you really want to try, I can only recommend what I found worked - look at the character's ability scores and read a few pieces on what ability scores mean at various values. They aren't all golden gems of omnipotent wisdom; but it's a start. Then try and weave a story that justifies the classes/feats that you'll take (if it helps, imagine the guy running your game won't let you run the character unless you can justify (nearly) every element). From those parameters, build a mindset and just keep asking whether you're consistent with it.
I'd say the first thing to learn is how to put yourself into a narrative mindset. Put the numbers out of your head completely, the rules too.
Get your character's background story worked out. Do some exercises writing diary entries for them to get into their brain.
When playing, visualize the scene, and imagine you're an actor reading from a script in a movie.
Now pretend you've lost your copy of the script, and for whatever reason can't get another copy. You have to improvise the part based on what you know of the character and how you think they'd react, and make the movie work, or the director is going to fire you. Reel off the lines you think they'd say, and do the things you think they'd do.
Then, and only then, use what you know of the rules to determine how that works out. Let the story lead your decisions, and not the numbers. The rules are only there to determine success/failure within a game of "collaborative storytelling", they're not the actual game*
* - Unless you want them to be, obviously. But then you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place :)
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First, I would suggest that you separate the ideas of "Role-Playing" and "Acting". Many people seem to feel that you are not role-playing if you aren't talking in character about EVERYTHING.
I don't do small talk in real life. I don't want to "play" small talk. I want to play saving kingdoms and exploring strange places. if that is what you like, embrace it.
Second, don't get into the, "this is what my character would do" mentality that crushes your gaming experience. The idea that when another player character offends you means that you have to plot to kill the whole party, is a bad idea that I see often. If you did this every time your real friends killed you, you would be in jail and you couldn't play at all.
Third, share. I had a friend that had some of the coolest character concepts and unique detailed ideas. As DM I got to read/hear them. The problem was, he never brought any of them out to the table for the other players. As such most people that he had no imagination.
But as others have said, it will take time. I have been doing it over 20 years and I still suck at it!
If you did this every time your real friends killed you, you would be in jail and you couldn't play at all.
Adding nothing much to the thread here, I just admittedly couldn't stop laughing at the mental image conjured by this error.
Now to contribute;
Third, share. I had a friend that had some of the coolest character concepts and unique detailed ideas. As DM I got to read/hear them. The problem was, he never brought any of them out to the table for the other players. As such most people that he had no imagination.
I don't think this could be stressed enough, if there's a player at your table who can get into a character like some great impressionist (or you know, is just...good at roleplaying), then just present the numbers and see if they can weave any concepts out of whatever set up you have.
Bonus points if they can't optimize for toffee and you fix that in return.|
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First my hat off to you for trying to better yourself.
You said you tend to over compensate you can use that be the party pack rat who is slower than the rest of the party because of all of your stuff. If you have a Handy Haversack then they guy who can find his stuff. You could name your haversack and say what you want. Mrs chippy flask of alchemist fire But you also are the guy that has the portable plank when on of the other party member set of the pit trap. and no one has rope. You could be the only person with a mule in the dungeon to carry your stuff.
If you mid max use it to help you play the charter a weak charter cant
climb or swim for crap with out help or extra aides. A charter with low charisma cant do diplomacy or bluff very well I once had to to distract a tribe so we could pass a note to the tribe translater. I made a toast
and drank a ale then dosed my self with alchemist fire to distract them.
Who is your favorite hero from books movies or TV?
Do you like to be first in the room or last. do you like to stay in the middle of the party. What is your charter afraid of or cant take seriously?
Something bad happened to your charter one of the other charters in your party helped you how?
You seem quit intelligent try playing some one dumb.
Like dumb barbarian. mongo missed mongo get mad Mongo smash.
Your the rube that the other party member have to protect from getting
cheated.
Another tact is play the absent minded professor who is quite intellegent but often unwise due to curosity if he does carry his house keys around his neck he would lose them. Look out professor for that poisoned snake on the book shelf what?
You could play a bard they are very knowledgible and are good at talking to people but they are not either great fighters or archers or wizards
They can be a utility player.
You could be the guy who has to give to every panhandler or the guy who kicks them.
Play we be Goblins and pay it for fun not success. many times the
players had a good time and the whole party was wiped out.
I fight my tendency to play the system because in the end my charters become boring weapon systems. My 1st charter was a dwarf wizard
not the best choice for a wizard.
He was the weak smart kid in a society that values brawn over brains and very weak.
He was the smart kid in a school of jocks who got beat up all the time. So my 1st feat was fleet
so I could out run Jocks instead of a Wizard specific feat.
My 2nd feat was running for the above reason. I decided that he did not like fighters or barbarians but he was interested in Monks because they use finesse instead of force. and got access to some skills that I would not have had if I had not been if I was a pure wizard. The thing is to do what the charter would do even if it is stupid.
I have 2 Barbarians one is stupid he defers to others as to what he should
do. I based him on Mongo from Blazing saddles. The second one is a gnome who has no fear of anyone similar to a
chawowa that whats to pick a fight with a Great Dane. Not the opptomized choice.
My half-ling horse archer prefers the half-ling sling staff even though
there are more perks for bow why would he want to use an inferior
weapon other than a sling. what is your charters weakness as well as strength.
Is there a love or hate that overwhelms reason. My cleric normally
heals the party and is support. But when faced with undead he will
do nothing accept attack them until they are dead he cant help his party they are on there own if the undead run he will chase them to the end of hell he hates them that much.
My wife played a short skinny dwarf fighter that insisted in kicking in every door instead of letting the thief check it 1st.
I played a cleric of baccus the god of wine and insanity and I was not
sure how to play him until a bar brawl broke out. people were punches I was throwing molitove cocktails and using my sword unrestrained insane
Violent way. Pathfinder Society is less friendly to role play due to time but home games are great for role playing between 4 and 6 is a good size. You have time develop a relationship with you other players. I remember playing a pombus ass fighter He was the greatest fighter in the world just ask him. He told an elf that bowmen were cowards.
You can be impractical have a low charisma and ask your dog to attack
if low enough the dog might bit you instead of who you sicked him on.
Sorry a little long.
Lots of good advice here. I suppose first I'd ask why you want to up the role-playing as opposed to sticking with the numbers. If it's from an immersion standpoint, I understand that. The more involved the players are inside as well as outside of combat the better the game in my experience. If you're willing to put in the effort I believe the game will be more fun for everyone involved.
This doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a full-on actor. Lots of good role-play can be had through subtlety, and without having an outrageous or outgoing character. I've been in games with (and played myself) non-talkative characters that just grunt or 'hmpf' at everything, and throw out some dialog here and there only when directly spoken to. Just having a personality - even a minimal one - that's consistent helps create a persona that the other players will recognize. When you decide you want to branch out or elaborate on it a bit more, do so when you feel comfortable doing it.
I also think that maybe using your character sheet as a starting point might help you flesh out your character as well. Using the choices you've made to create your character, try to ground your decisions with real-life motivations. You said your character has pretty much every tool in his (or her, but I'll use masculine reference) backpack, right? Give your character a reason for this. Maybe he's one of those people that has constant "Aha!" moments, and pulls out just the right thing at the right time. You could even delve a bit deeper and say he's always worried about being unprepared because of some traumatic event in his past when he wasn't. If that sounds too silly, maybe he's just a very efficient professional, and always keeps things on hand to handle any job. Maybe he's just a hoarder.
Even inside of combat there are plenty of opportunities for role-play. If you aren't the type of player that wants to spout out lengthy monologues during downtime, that's fine. Use combat to flesh your character out. What feats and abilities does he/she have? Figure out how it would look when your character performs those actions, and keep those in mind. Just describing a little bit of what you're doing instead of (or along with) just naming off an ability can help with immersion. An easy example would be Power Attack. Just say that you're pissed and swing hard and recklessly. Or if you're not angry, maybe you just want to hit somebody hard to keep them off-balance. Basically, just put some thought into how you built your character, and why they might be that way, and go from there.
Lastly, (I know this is a bit long-winded, sorry) I feel that you might not necessarily need advice on how to role-play your character, but rather to role-play them while ignoring obvious tactical advantages or player knowledge. That may take practice. I know some players that find this extremely hard to do, and others that make it a point to make non-advantageous decisions for the sake of role-play. I guess my only real advice for that is to try it out. Let go a little. This is easier to do if you have a strong character concept to inform your decision making, but even if you don't maybe just do something kind of fun during a combat that isn't that critical. Up against 2 goblins? Punch one in the face. Sure, they might get an attack of opportunity, but you'll live (probably). If you get in a fight in a bar, throw your mug at someone. Use your fork. Of course these examples aren't necessarily relevant to your character or game, but hopefully I'm getting the idea across. Just find an opportunity or two to let go a little and possibly make sub-optimal decisions. Just to feel it out. Once you allow yourself to do that a few times on purpose, it may be easier to make character-driven decisions in the future that aren't necessarily the most strategic.
I decided to think about this in a new way, instead of going on at length about defining an intangible. What I came up with - the short version - is that a good role player decides to immerse and helps others immerse.
For myself, a helpful way of starting was to roleplay myself. That is, make a character whose personality is my own, so that I'm basically playing "me, with superpowers".
Then, when interacting with the game world, you don't have to think "What would this other person do?", you just react naturally. It's not hard for me to guess how I'd react to encountering such-and-such a thing, you know? :)
This is exactly what I did, and I loved every minute of it.
Turned out I was a LN Martial Artist :)
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As someone said there's lots of good advice here.
Id like to add 2 things.
First- Come up with a loose framework for the character and whether you write it down or just put it in your head, come up with three adjectives that describe him....as an example I recently created a Dwarven Fighter for a game. I wanted to create a Dwarven Foehammer Archetype. As I developed the character I decided he would be a CMB specialist with breaking things..ie sundering. So the three mental personality traits I applied to him is Impatient (he doesn't like to wait for people to bypass obstacles) Aggressive (when in doubt break something) and Straight Forward. (The kind of person who has a hard time biting his tongue). Now I have a framework...to build his reactions from.
Second- don't get trapped into a character. What I mean by that is when you first create a character at 1st level, there is not a lot of information to draw on for how your character would react in any given situation. If you have a concept, don't trap yourself into 'this is how he should be'. Most people react instinctively in situations in real life....so do so when you are playing. Let your gut determine how you would react. ie don't over think it. Role playing comes naturally.
Lots of good advice here. Especially the advice about how to adopt something you know in real life and use that as a guide in game. Whether that is some sort of real life personality trait or even disorder, or modeling a character after an actor or a person you know in real life, portraying something you know in a new setting is one of the easiest and most fun ways to role play. It's also great stress relief for your real life. As a GM I frequently take the personalities of people I am currently having negative interaction with in real life (such as a boss or a co-worker that is making my job harder) and using that personality for my NPCs and getting a vicarious chuckle out of watching the PCs beat the heck out of them.
For my PCs I used to do something similar but once I had become comfortable with role playing the way I do it (which is not the way other people do it, and that's fine) I began creating unique personalities that I did my best to base off the character's backstory and experiences, which means those personalities tend to change over time as the character advances and gains confidence, skills and abilities.
The main thing I would say is to try to stay just slightly beyond your comfort zone so that you are always pushing forward, but never so much that you can't quickly revert to doing what you find to be fun, since having fun is what the game is all about.
Role playing isn't for everyone, and that's cool. But in my opinion, becoming comfortable with it does improve the gaming experience.
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Two things I do to help with getting away from the dice, and towards making an actual character:
1) Come up with an overarching goal for the character. Does your character want to find the man who murdered his father and exact revenge (a bit of a cliche, but it gets things done), does he want to become king by his own hand (also a cliche), does he have some sort of birthright he feels the need to claim? Does he want to become the richest man in the world? Think of how they'll reach this big goal, then create smaller goals that can happen in-game to work towards that larger goal - perhaps a cut of your adventure profits go towards building businesses, or hiring investigators.
2) Come up with a code of ethics for your character. What are some things your character will always do, or will never do? Only someone with some severe disorders will have zero limits, or things they're not motivated towards. I once had a witchguard ranger who had three rules: 1) He goes in first if no one else volunteers immediately. 2) Presume people hating on magic are just plebes acting out of fear. 3) Humans First.
This led to some of the funnest encounters I've had. He became the party's strongest personality, because he had a personal goal, and he had things he would always argue for/against, even when I knew OOC it was a bad idea (like charging a mob on horseback at L1 to rescue a witch.)
Tremendous advice Mr. Fluffykins.
So good, in fact, that I want to repeat it.
Give your character GOALS and define their MORAL CODE. Those two things will give you more chances to exhibit a truly consistent personality than almost anything else you can do. Plus they create great story hooks for the GM.
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A good roleplayer is someone who makes decisions based on what their character would do, rather than what is optimal to make their characters more effective.
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I'd love to shut up and leave it at a one-sentence answer, but I feel I should give some examples:
- In my Rise of the Runelords campaign, the bard has done things like buy scrolls of wish to extend his lifespan so he can spend longer with the drow paladin post-campaign, avoid buying Knowledge skills because "he's not a book guy", and the whole party has spent countless hours tracking down the "proper owners" of loot they've found and returning it. Good roleplayer. He's choosing to spend money and buy skill points in a way that his character would, not in a way that makes him more effective in the AP. The other two players are also excellent roleplayers, making this by far and away my favorite game to GM.
- In my Kingmaker campaign, I have a player who claims to be "the best roleplayer in the group" because he can do the funny voices and orate us all to death. Yet every single level-up is, "What skills will make me more effective in this AP? Can I have a background that relates directly to this AP so I can have the Knowledge skills for free? I don't have enough skill points to buy them? What equipment can I buy that would be more effective against monsters in this area?" Everything's about min-maxing; nothing's about character behavior. His character is a cardboard cut-out of himself, being min/maxed to be most effective in the AP. He's doing the same thing in the Second Darkness campaign. "Tell me what skills, traits, feats, and equipment to take that will be most effective in this AP, and I'll roleplay why I'm buying them." Bad roleplayer.
- I'm going to toot my own horn, hence take this with a grain of salt, but my Second Darkness character carries no weapon, donates 10% of her earnings to a temple of Sarenrae, and runs around stabilizing all our enemies. She's an oracle. There's no requirement for any of that, but I feel it's in character as a healer trained on the Celestial plane. She's totally non-optimized, and I buy her skills and spells based on what she feels she needs, rather than anything having to do with the AP. I feel this is good roleplaying.
It's not so much "intentional nonoptimization" as it is, "Choosing what my character would do over bizarre optimization choices." Don't get me started on Shoanti barbarians coming out of the Cinderlands wielding masterwork nodachi...
Yes, I always see uber-optimizers saying, "See? I chose this specific background to justify why I chose all these optimized feats, skills, and items," but IN MY PERSONAL OPINION, they always come off as hokey and contrived, and such party members rarely contribute to the story. They're just more effective in combat. And that's a different game than *I* prefer to play.
I have a question regarding RPing.
Generally I design characters with a large enough backstory to motivate and guide them through their existences without resorting to murder-hoboism. I suppose my issue is how to RP in a group without long soliloquies or extensive exposition on my part. I imagine if someone is playing a stoic, it will be hard to explain WHY the character is stoic without resorting to outright saying what he's thinking.
*Thok the barbarian listens to the merchants dispute and grunts once*
"I'm doing this because my family never hugged me and a merchant conned me out of my pile of pelts and blahblahblah"
I guess my worry is if I play any character that is not excessively open about his thoughts, it will be tough to convey why they act a certain way, besides "Oh, well he doesn't roleplay much" or "he's just being a dick to my NPCs"
Really good point. That's why I love player journal threads. People can read each other's journals and get insight into the characters without it having to happen at the table. The problem is getting many players to write a journal at all. Our Carrion Crown GM offers a 50 XP per page reward, and two of the five players still don't write a word. I'm writing a veritable novella on our Second Darkness thread, but of the 8 other players, only two are regularly posting anything, and one of those is my 9-year-old son, because he can dictate to me what he wants to say.
And some players just don't want you to know what they're thinking. I know that Sans-Quah the barbarian is never going to post more than a sentence on the thread, because his player is so determined to be "mysterious" that he gets upset when his character sheet gets left face-up on the table.
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I have a question regarding RPing.
Generally I design characters with a large enough backstory to motivate and guide them through their existences without resorting to murder-hoboism. I suppose my issue is how to RP in a group without long soliloquies or extensive exposition on my part. I imagine if someone is playing a stoic, it will be hard to explain WHY the character is stoic without resorting to outright saying what he's thinking.
*Thok the barbarian listens to the merchants dispute and grunts once*
"I'm doing this because my family never hugged me and a merchant conned me out of my pile of pelts and blahblahblah"
I guess my worry is if I play any character that is not excessively open about his thoughts, it will be tough to convey why they act a certain way, besides "Oh, well he doesn't roleplay much" or "he's just being a dick to my NPCs"
In PBP internal monologues can be used..but in real life tabletop games you have to use actions to define your character.
Nobody's home above cited good examples. One of mine is I was playing a Druid in a recent game and I had him as a one who wouldn't kill innocents and he defended those who could not. NG type. Hes ok breaking the law for the greater good...anyway, we are up against a real bad guy and we killed him in his house and set about setting it up so the law did not know about it and it would look like he fell asleep drunk and knocked over a lamp....and what should happen but we found out he had a kid.....I stopped the party from doing the safe thing and I took the kid out and found him a home with a local woman an act that made it so the law found out...the party is still angry that we didn't just abandon the kid and run for it...
actions define your characters personality
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I start with something central to the theme (a kind of immovable rod to hang everything on) and work outward from there. Generating catch phrases and thought processes around it. Example
Lawyer / Cleric of Asmodeus / the faction of Love
1. All his wands are based on "you've got that infernal healin" and are "sung" to the tune of you've lost that lovin feeling.
> you never close your eyes - deathwatch
> but baby something beautiful's dying - endure elements.
> I'd get down on my knees for youuu - bless.
2. Public defender - take everyone alive...then defend them.
> Don't worry I think we have a good case.
> I stabilize all the dying.
> But you took all my stuff, why would you represent me?
o Dear I'm paid by the state, *public defender*
3. spell - Murderous Command
> Well struck sir, with the right judge I'm sure we can convince the jury you were originally on our side.
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I don't consider myself a great roleplayer either, but I've found that the best roleplaying I've done (in PFS, at least, where there's not a lot of room for character development) is self-imposed.
The character's goals aren't always decided at level 1, but along the way, with some experience based on what's happened and who they adventure with, they can pick up ideals along the way that shape their motivations and attitudes.
Even if there's no banter with other party members about what those motivations or attitudes are, it's kind of cool to have that in your head that that's what this character is about. If the opportunity arises, sure, clue other characters in on it (even subtly), but if not, that's okay too.
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A good friend.
Role-playing games are games.
You play them with your friends. Styles of play may differ, but if the other person is honest, communicative, and there to have fun, then they're bound be a good player.
So, I've played a few games and I admit I can't roleplay for crap. I tend to play the numbers and tend to think within the skillset rather than within a character. I don't know why but I just can't get over this and play Pathfinder like it were a puzzle instead of a supposedly continuous story.
Makes me a bit sad.
So what I've come to ask is how one gets over and around playing the numbers? I tend to over compensate with gear to make up for my failures ( my backpack has every tool it can carry in it ) and while I'm really good at thinking of new and smart ways to get around I'm really bad at doing this from an "in-character" point of view. If I was playing myself as a chessmaster I'd probably do better but that's breaking the 4th wall, etc.
Something that I do that gets around the numbers is I look at the numbers and everything as the laws of physics of that world. You know your characters numbers because you are your character, and your character, having lived at least 15 years (less if you're a goblin or something), he has a fairly good idea of what he's capable of. But you don't know the number to anyone or anything else, because you don't have the familiarity with their body that they do.
For me, this allows me to play the numbers, but IN game. The numbers become a huge part of what I base my character's personality and actions on.
One drawback to this though, is that I come to expect "physics" to work a certain way, and when the verisimilitude of the numbers breaks (because the GM decided to fudge something, or a rule is forgotten and the GM makes an on the fly ruling) it breaks my mentality from the game, as the "realism" just got screwed with. It makes me a bit of a rules lawyer in my head, but I do my best to only speak up when its helpful to the game (or just when it breaks 'reality' too much for me).
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What makes a good roleplayer?
Practice.
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So what I've come to ask is how one gets over and around playing the numbers? I tend to over compensate with gear to make up for my failures ( my backpack has every tool it can carry in it ) and while I'm really good at thinking of new and smart ways to get around I'm really bad at doing this from an "in-character" point of view. If I was playing myself as a chessmaster I'd probably do better but that's breaking the 4th wall, etc.
I think you've just described a personality. He's worried about being underprepared so he has too many tools, and he's really good at thinking of clever ways to do things, but not at interacting with people.
Try roleplaying that. Is the party about to get into a fight that you think you have a good strategy for? Tell your strategy to the other characters. Spend too long digging in your backpack for the perfect tool (it's actually a good roleplaying hook if you *don't* have Handy Haversack). Play yourself as a chessmaster. As some of the other posters have said, there's nothing wrong with playing yourself.
Do that for a while, and eventually you may find yourself starting to think of your character as a separate entity. Then you can start making characters who aren't you.
The rules are only there to determine success/failure within a game of "collaborative storytelling", they're not the actual game*
Very nicely put.
It's important to know that the stormwind fallacy is in fact a fallacy.
That crunch and fluff aren't mutually exclusive... It's sometimes hard not to fall into the easy trap that 'my crunch is my fluff' though. There are certain people who would never play another race unless it had a bonus in a stat or an ability to see in darkness or some other crunch motive. If you took away the crunch benefit.... Would they still be as interested? Would they lose interest completely in the race?
While its true a person can make the optimal choice and justify it in character, the most enjoyment I have out of characters on either side of the table is when they make less than optimal choices and can justify them...
So in terms of good roleplaying... Fluff is king. The ultimate actor's question... 'What's my motivation'.... Find 'characteristics' about your character that have no mechanical modifiers. Think of why you like the characters you like... Granted there are a lot of people who only like wolverine because of his healing factor and his claws... *Most* people like wolverine because he's a gruff uncompromising badass with an protective streak over young girls... which is kinda noble... or kinda creepy depending on your perspective I guess...
You have to convince them that they can be self sufficient before you can convince them that being self sufficient is a better way to go.
Pathfinder's very very bad about trying to attatch or encouraging the attatchment of a crunch score to a 'trait'... that doesn't mean you have to drink the coolaid. It's a bad mechanic to get people addicted to.
--- on the other hand ---
Palladium uses an xp reward table with things on it like 'selfless actions that put your life in danger... clever useful ideas... clever futile ideas... quick thinking... avoiding unnecessary violence... deductive reasoning... daring (clever or not)...
It may be wrong to reward people for thinking of things to do besides 'the best possible option'... A great player thinks about great ways to add fun to the table without a reward... but palladium believes some folks seem to need a carrot...
The best gamers to me are the one's that try the road less travelled without the hope of reward. The most interesting road instead of the most tactically superior road. You can always get crunch rewards for crunch actions... Try actively searching out more fluff rewards by taking fluff actions or making fluff decisions. Or even more importantly try finding ways to take actions that aren't just crunch rewards, but are fluff rewards with possible crunch detriments... Sacrificing a chunk of your success for a more interesting but possibly less than optimal result...
The best stories and best characters arent told about the guy who always has the right tool and always makes the best decisions. They're the guy who makes a decision knowing that 'this could get bad for me...' or 'this will be interesting'.
For gm's on the other hand it's great to think in opposites... You don't want to overdo it... If you subvert every trope then eventually you become boring and predictable again... But...
Find the yin of every yang.
If you've got a table full of optimizers and crunch addicts...
Do more than just always go for the achilles heel. Attack his strengths as well.
Every strength can also be seen as a weakness.
Put a guy who always swings first in a situation where that becomes the wrong decision.
Put a guy who's always prepared not into a situation he's not prepared for, but into a situation where overpreparing causes more problems than it solves.
We already know that a the disadvantage of becoming rich is that you become a target of thieves...
Or that guys in heavy armor cant swim....
That concept is so easy to grasp... But try to think of other ways that the other powers and crunch advantages become 'problems'.
To take another page from palladium...Read the chapter on megaheros in palladium... Being the guy who always saves the day can mean you get blamed for the day you couldn't save...' Why weren't you there!?!?!' You could have saved him! Even if you couldn't. It may not be true, but your reputation precedes you... If you're so awesome people will expect awesome from you even when it's not possible... And hold it against you anyway...
Finally don't restrict yourself to crunch either... You don't always have to beat down your players.. but it's sometimes even *better* not to just tackle their weaknesses or even tackle their strengths head on mechanically (as players tend to LOVE this) but to challenge the *notion* that what they've chosen as a strentgh of their character really is a strength... No choice comes without it's problems... And every choice can be just as much it's own problem as a solution.
Every silver lining has a cloud...
If you've got a table full of optimizers and crunch addicts...
Do more than just always go for the achilles heel. Attack his strengths as well.
Every strength can also be seen as a weakness.
Put a guy who always swings first in a situation where that becomes the wrong decision.
Put a guy who's always prepared not into a situation he's not prepared for, but into a situation where overpreparing causes more problems than it solves.
Heh. I had a group once that had prearranged to be able to read pretty much every draconic, demonic, old, weird, or just downright powerful language available.
So I put a scroll in the main treasure room that cast a curse on the reader.
Not really that innovative, but it goes to illustrate that it doesn't necessarily take a lot of thinking to out-think their preparation.
I got a good comment the other day on removing XP from my game in favor of levelling at appropriate moments:
"Hey.. this means we don't get punished for avoiding all that combat now!"
I always used to award XP similar to what they'd have gotten for fighting the enemy anyway, as they'd still "defeated" them even if just with words, but there was always that irrational feeling that RPing past a guard wasn't worth as much as smacking them in the skull.